Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss

[totally_dude]

Can someone please check my IF plan? I plan on starting next week and doing it this winter instead of a balls-to-the-wall bulk which I tend to gain too much fat...analogous to Aragon's FULKING! going to try an IF recomp instead...

My IF would go something like this MONDAY-FRIDAY 5 day workout split CHEST, BACK, SHOULDERS, LEGS, ARMS:

6AM wake up for work take fish oil/multivitamin/flaxseed oil caps

12PM 20% totally allotted calories for lunch

4PM 10% total allotted calories pre-workout

5PM-6PM workout

7-8PM - eat remaining 70% calories..

bed by 10PM, rinse recycle repeat

daily macros is 40-40-20

can someone help me with off-days? I plan on doing just light cardio and abs

[ilove2run]

So tell me.. where do those 5 calories per serving come from? Crystal Light has calories, Xtend also has added Glutamine and CM whereas bulk BCAA's do not. Hence why i stated that above. Your getting flavoring + BCAA's + Glutamine + CM not just BCAA's.. In the end its personal preference, but i am just pointing out the above, people prefer to keep their intra-workout beverage calorie free without unwanted carbs and eat them, regardless of how minor they are.

In regards to the whole calories things, you realize that 10g of BCAA's do correlate to about -------- ~40 calories, correct. So the extra ~5 calories from the crystal light won't do sheet to a fast.

[Holyspokes]

Because it stimulates protein synthesis and it inhibits some of the catabolism that is occuring due to being fasted. You could just as easily get this same effect by eating some food with protein but then you would be breaking your fast.

I agree that BCAA have uses and benefits, but.. your still breaking your fast by consuming them, even if it feels like you are not. Why not just have some carbohydrates with the BCAA as well? Your body would be using the glucose for energy just like it is the leucine.

[SuffolkPunch]

I agree that BCAA have uses and benefits, but.. your still breaking your fast by consuming them, even if it feels like you are not. Why not just have some carbohydrates with the BCAA as well? Your body would be using the glucose for energy just like it is the leucine.

Martin doesn't consider it to breaking your fast consuming BCAAs. They only contain a few calories - but if you have a coffee with a drop of milk then that contains some calories too.

I think "breaking your fast" would mean eating enough to significantly change the hormone profile in your system from "fasted" to "fed".

[Marius_Ursus]

Martin doesn't consider it to breaking your fast consuming BCAAs. They only contain a few calories - but if you have a coffee with a drop of milk then that contains some calories too.

I think "breaking your fast" would mean eating enough to significantly change the hormone profile in your system from "fasted" to "fed".

There's the winner. Most of the posters discussing this are either avoiding or missing the biggest player in why IF works the way it does: catecholamines.

[iDrive]

I agree that BCAA have uses and benefits, but.. your still breaking your fast by consuming them, even if it feels like you are not. Why not just have some carbohydrates with the BCAA as well? Your body would be using the glucose for energy just like it is the leucine.

Technically some BCAA's are breaking the fast if you take a fast by the strictest sense. On the protocol you're allowed to have a few incidental calories during the fast (a bit of milk in coffee/tea, some pre-wo BCAAs etc.)

Actually, here:

The fasted state is not an on/off switch

The fasted state is not an on/off switch that immediately gets turned off once you have a tiny amount of calories, like a lot of people seem to believe. The research is not clear on exactly what it is with fasting that causes the positive effects seen in the clinical trials, but some of the hypotheses revolve around

a) letting insulin levels drop below a certain threshold, rather than a semi-elevated state (which would be the case with a higher meal frequency approach)

b) creating an acute energy deficit (which you enter during the fast)

Note that I'm really dumbing this down to get my point across.

So, it's a question of a dose-response effect. Can you have some milk in your coffee? Sure, I wouldn't worry about it and I have it myself. Life would just be too damn boring with only black coffee, especially if you're used to having some milk with it. How much milk/cream? I would put the limit at 50 kcal total used throughout the fast. That's about 1 deciliter or 1/2 cup 2% milk.

Can you eat half a cucumber during the fast? Sure, I wouldn't worry about it, though I don't see the reason as to why you would do so. A cucumber won't fill you up, and eating something, anything, may actually stimulate hunger during the fast in some people. Not to mention the fairly strong hunger suppressive effects of fasting, which makes the need for eating something quite pointless.

In conclusion, use common sense and understand that the fasted state and the positive effects that may result from it isn't an on/off switch, or an 'all-or-nothing' kind of deal.

It's the same thing with the pre-workout meal I recommend for fasted training. For clients doing AM sessions, I recommend something along these lines

pre-wo meal of 10 g BCAA 5-15 min prior to session

Training at 8-9 AM

Break fast with pwo meal at 10 AM or as soon as you're done training: the 8-10 hr feeding window starts now (and not with the pre-wo BCAA's).

Some might argue that "oh, well the BCAA's are insulinogenic/they provide calories and that will take you out of the fasted state" etc. Yeah sure, but then again exercise has the effect of dropping insulin levels. And coupled with what is known from research on pre-workout protein and the effects on protein synthesis, the pro's of the 'fasted' pre-wo meal certainly outweighs whatever miniscule effect it has on insulin or the tiny amount of calories they provide.

via Q&A

Here's why Martin advocates Pre-Wo BCAAs:

For fasted training, BCAA or an essential amino acid mixture is highly recommended. However, if this feels like too much micromanaging or simply questionable from an economic standpoint, you could also make due with some whey protein. The importance of protein intake prior to fasted training is outlined in this and this post.

via The LeanGains Guide


IMO in the grand scheme it doesn't really matter if you "break the fast" pre-wo anyway since technically you'll be breaking the fast in an hour or two anyway (after your workout)

[doctapeppa]

Can someone please check my IF plan? I plan on starting next week and doing it this winter instead of a balls-to-the-wall bulk which I tend to gain too much fat...analogous to Aragon's FULKING! going to try an IF recomp instead...

My IF would go something like this MONDAY-FRIDAY 5 day workout split CHEST, BACK, SHOULDERS, LEGS, ARMS:

6AM wake up for work take fish oil/multivitamin/flaxseed oil caps

12PM 20% totally allotted calories for lunch

4PM 10% total allotted calories pre-workout

5PM-6PM workout

7-8PM - eat remaining 70% calories..

bed by 10PM, rinse recycle repeat

daily macros is 40-40-20

can someone help me with off-days? I plan on doing just light cardio and abs

Have your vitamins and fish oil with a meal as these could break the fast since there is some nutrient value to them. Also, You can get away with 60% of your calories as your post workout unless you really want 70 for some reason.

I'm not sure why you are going with a 5 day split. I can't tell how much experience you have but unless you are fairly advanced in lifting 3 days is plenty. LISS enough for off days, but if you want some cardio, go for it. Generally off days would be lower carbs and higher fat and lifting days are lower fat and higher carb.

See here if you haven't read it already:
http://www.leangains.com/2010/04/leangains-guide.html

[totally_dude]

hrmm... anyone been doing IF since 2007? or have most poeple gone back to six meals a day?

[141455675]

hrmm... anyone been doing IF since 2007? or have most poeple gone back to six meals a day?

'08 right here. Bout 2 years nearly exactly.

[alekkx]

been IFing for a solid 3 months now! anyone notice their stomach has shrunk?

[Trillios]

been IFing for a solid 3 months now! anyone notice their stomach has shrunk?

Lol opposite for me. I feel like I can eat way more and I don't mean because I'm hungry. I can physically squeeze in more food (even tried it by curiosity one night and fam kindly requested to let them know when I was ready to eat people so they could run lol).

[kusok]

stop by let us know how it goes for you if you stick to it.

It hasn't even been a week. I'm a very skeptical person, so no placebo effect here, but I'm blown away. I will stick to it to see what happens from here on. So far I clearly gained muscle AND did NOT gain ANY bodyfat, it honestly looks in the mornings as if I actually LOST fat...
This is rather puzzling to me as I'm 34, and not a beginner to exercise or healthful eating. I'm following Martin's "2 pre-work-out meals protocol" as I have to work-out very late night due to work schedule. This is now, late and full of water unlike my av pic taken in the morning a few weeks ago:



I can't believe this, my calories are the same as before, so are macros, but lifts have gone up. I love eating big meals, and am actually not hungry during the fast. This has been a pleasant surprise of an experiment for me so far. AND I have been able to pig out in a restaurant with my girl without freaking her out that I can't eat this, i can't eat that, I have to eat 500 calories or less at this time or at that time etc etc etc, I just freaking pigged out I loved it. Still had trouble meeting my minimum caloric requirement for the day...

[apace]

Anyone tried the protein Fluff yet ?

[alekkx]

Lol opposite for me. I feel like I can eat way more and I don't mean because I'm hungry. I can physically squeeze in more food (even tried it by curiosity one night and fam kindly requested to let them know when I was ready to eat people so they could run lol).

do you try and eat 1500 - 2000 cal meals in 1 sitting daily or split it up?

[Dexter3000]

hrmm... anyone been doing IF since 2007? or have most poeple gone back to six meals a day?

I'm on IF for 16 months now and I have found no reason to go back to 6 meals a day.
I have about 25% of my calories pre-wo and the rest of it post-wo. Best thing ever.

Anyone tried the protein Fluff yet ?

Working on that but I don't have a mixer hehe, so I'm trying something else but it looks delicious!

[CarlGN]

for all those IF'ers who train fasted, have any of you used sizeon pre contest during your training? according to the nutritional facts its 50 cals per serving. My guess is if one were to sip it during the workout you would burn off the calories anyways but would it disrupt the fast? anyone have any experience with this?

[Trillios]

do you try and eat 1500 - 2000 cal meals in 1 sitting daily or split it up?

Well depending on the day it'll be from 1500-2000 pwo. Usually I just have a protein mini cake pre (1 scoop) then eat the rest of the food pwo one after the other (chicken breast>steak>tuna>oats>cc>etc).

[stratoo]

Does anyone think that a pure BCAA powder will work as well as BCAA + vitamin b6? I should have some b6 already in my system from the previous day, correct? It's a water soluable vitamin.

[thegymbum]

Has there been a verdict on early morning fasted training? I will be working out at 8, but not breaking the fast until 12. Should I do 10g BCAA before, and 10 after every other hour? Will that much BCAA, (around 120cal) break the fast?

I found that to be problematic, but that's just my opinion. For a few days I tried that, but post-workout I would feel like crap, and noticed that after a few days my workout performance was slipping. I think it's best to plan things out so that you're refueling right after the workout. Even with the BCAAs, I was definitely slipping performance wise. For me, anyway, it just works better if I replenish my body right after working out.

[thegymbum]

Does anyone think that a pure BCAA powder will work as well as BCAA + vitamin b6? I should have some b6 already in my system from the previous day, correct? It's a water soluable vitamin.

It's best to take B vitamins with food. As long as you're meeting 100% of your daily requirements for b6, it doesn't really matter when you take them, so if you're not getting it with the BCAAs, you're probably fine. B vitamins without sufficient food intake can be problematic anyway, as there's a greater risk for gastrointestinal issues.

[mangojuice]

you know what I realized? if I actually started IF I would be saving hundreds of dollars a year on supplements.... all those MRP packets, RTDs, casein etc. I'd just stick with a regular whey protein blend and eat more whole foods... this is definitely beneficial.... probably will give it a run this coming winter...

[stratoo]

It's best to take B vitamins with food. As long as you're meeting 100% of your daily requirements for b6, it doesn't really matter when you take them, so if you're not getting it with the BCAAs, you're probably fine. B vitamins without sufficient food intake can be problematic anyway, as there's a greater risk for gastrointestinal issues.

I take a multi and eat a ton of veggies, so a deficiency is highly unlikely. Since b vitamins are water soluble, wouldn't they exit my body through urine if I drink a lot of water while I fast, which I do? I'm not sure how this works, but it could be an issue if I fast for 16 hours and then work out with nothing but BCAAs. Maybe they don't get absorbed?

[iDrive]

hrmm... anyone been doing IF since 2007? or have most poeple gone back to six meals a day?

Almost a year.

It wasn't that big of a change because the only reason I was eating breakfast and lunch were because I thought that it was best for burning fat. Before that I didn't eat breakfast ever and would occasionally eat lunch so it was easy for me to cut them and just not eat until around dinner time (which also happened to be Post-WO)

you know what I realized? if I actually started IF I would be saving hundreds of dollars a year on supplements.... all those MRP packets, RTDs, casein etc. I'd just stick with a regular whey protein blend and eat more whole foods... this is definitely beneficial.... probably will give it a run this coming winter...

IMO you don't need any of those on any diet protocol. Why wait for winter to start?

[totally_dude]

how can you be in a positive nitrogen balance if you are fasting though? that's the one thing I dont' understand... I eat at 6 meals a day right now with at LEAST 30 gram protein every 3 hours to maintain positive nitrogen balance

[deadfingers]

how can you be in a positive nitrogen balance if you are fasting though? that's the one thing I dont' understand... I eat at 6 meals a day right now with at LEAST 30 gram protein every 3 hours to maintain positive nitrogen balance

It's been proven 6 meals a day isn't any better than 3 meals a day. Read up on lean gains some you'll find everything you need on there.

[kusok]

how can you be in a positive nitrogen balance if you are fasting though? that's the one thing I dont' understand... I eat at 6 meals a day right now with at LEAST 30 gram protein every 3 hours to maintain positive nitrogen balance

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w8712615714k8150/


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029094



My understanding is that negative nitrogen balance is caused by one or more of the following: over-training, under-resting, not getting enough calories and/or fat/carbs/protein, and NOT by meal timing changes.

[Zelda55]

i dunno...i'm a bit skeptical about the whole BCAA issue. i just don't think it's backed by enough peer-reviewed studies suggesting it's beneficial even in a fasted state. that being said, i've seen enough research on the importance of leucine to take 5g of it here and there since i have some lying around (picked up off the bb.com store --> CheapSupplements brand). and really, if you look at the profiles of bcaa powders, including ones that martin recommends, 10g of the powder = 5g of leucine...

[doctapeppa]

i dunno...i'm a bit skeptical about the whole BCAA issue. i just don't think it's backed by enough peer-reviewed studies suggesting it's beneficial even in a fasted state. that being said, i've seen enough research on the importance of leucine to take 5g of it here and there since i have some lying around (picked up off the bb.com store --> CheapSupplements brand). and really, if you look at the profiles of bcaa powders, including ones that martin recommends, 10g of the powder = 5g of leucine...

No,there aren't many stuies showing BCAA preworkout is beneficial. There are, however, plenty of studies showing ingestion of protein pre workout is. Whole protein rather than bcaa would probably be better pre workout. Taking the bcaa is simply a compromise so that we can still enjoy our chatecholamine fueled workouts while attempting to shift from catabolic to anabolic during the weight training session. It's not a big deal. The real synthesis happens later on, anyways. I seriously don't get what the big deal is about bcaa and why this whole thread seems to be focused on bcaa when this diet is about fasting.

[iDrive]

No,there aren't many stuies showing BCAA preworkout is beneficial. There are, however, plenty of studies showing ingestion of protein pre workout is. Whole protein rather than bcaa would probably be better pre workout. Taking the bcaa is simply a compromise so that we can still enjoy our chatecholamine fueled workouts while attempting to shift from catabolic to anabolic during the weight training session. It's not a big deal. The real synthesis happens later on, anyways. I seriously don't get what the big deal is about bcaa and why this whole thread seems to be focused on bcaa when this diet is about fasting.

Yeah idk either it's really getting down to micromanaging when this protocol tries to break micromanaging.

Smoke 'em if ya got em.
Deal if ya don't.

[Zelda55]

Yeah idk either it's really getting down to micromanaging when this protocol tries to break micromanaging.

Smoke 'em if ya got em.
Deal if ya don't.

agreed. it's more a management of monetary expenses than anything for me and others, though. i would only throw down 30-50 bucks if not supping with leucine or BCAAs is very detrimental for someone recomping (which is difficult to do as is) like me. still, i just tend to believe that underperforming in gym is most likely a sign of undereating, not undersupplementing.