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  1. #8671
    Laser guns pew pew doctapeppa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ArgentineMuscle View Post
    hmm can people go keto diet on a intermittent fasting protocol ?
    Yes. Make sure to include re-feeds. Try to have those re-feeds after a heavy weight training session.
    Workout Log - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=128991381

    I rep back.

  2. #8672
    USAPL Nut Hugger ErickStevens's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ArgentineMuscle View Post
    hmm can people go keto diet on a intermittent fasting protocol ?
    Yeah... But why would you?
    "Nutrition for powerlifting: If you are serious about it, you will eat f*cking everything and get strong as $hit." - HamburgerTrain
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155661573&pagenumber=

  3. #8673
    Veggie. Judo. Squats. fitlover's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ArgentineMuscle View Post
    hmm can people go keto diet on a intermittent fasting protocol ?
    Yes you can.
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  4. #8674
    Registered User ArgentineMuscle's Avatar
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    I haven't been losing any fat or weight which leads me to believe either something was wrong with me calculations or this diet isn't for me BUT!! I have been able to fit into my size 30 waist jeans and I do have a lean physique ...then i was thinking maybe I should restrict carbs to the post workout and rest of the day fats and proteins...any thoughts and also im not able to follow the 16/8 but the 20/4 like warrior diet because of school..

  5. #8675
    Work. Learn. Win. Dexter3000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ArgentineMuscle View Post
    I haven't been losing any fat or weight which leads me to believe either something was wrong with me calculations or this diet isn't for me BUT!! I have been able to fit into my size 30 waist jeans and I do have a lean physique ...then i was thinking maybe I should restrict carbs to the post workout and rest of the day fats and proteins...any thoughts and also im not able to follow the 16/8 but the 20/4 like warrior diet because of school..
    Not sure if I understand what you're saying. You say you don't have success with this diet but you're also not able to follow it.

    Personally, IF fits perfectly in my daily routine and I'm also in school/college. If it doesn't suit you, don't do it. It's supposed to make things easier, not complexer.
    Iron, sometimes it sets my teeth on edge, other times it helps me control the chaos.

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  6. #8676
    Registered User ArgentineMuscle's Avatar
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    I had success with the Warrior Diet protocol 20/4 and lost 60lbs . Now I wanna try the intermittent fasting but I only use the...how you say "macros" and cycling of carbs..I would keep fat/protein high on all days and add in carbs on workout days and cut them completely out (with exception to some vegetables that have them)...and im not sure where I am going wrong

  7. #8677
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    Originally Posted by ArgentineMuscle View Post
    I haven't been losing any fat or weight which leads me to believe either something was wrong with me calculations or this diet isn't for me BUT!! I have been able to fit into my size 30 waist jeans and I do have a lean physique ...then i was thinking maybe I should restrict carbs to the post workout and rest of the day fats and proteins...any thoughts and also im not able to follow the 16/8 but the 20/4 like warrior diet because of school..
    Not flaming or anything, but if you have a size 30 waist and a lean physique, then why are you cutting?
    ☆ pUniCepts Appreciation Crew ☆

  8. #8678
    Registered User Martin Berkhan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ExScientia View Post
    Please go on... I am more than willing to have an academic discussion about this article and any problems with conclusions or study methods, but such a discussion cannot take place if you don't give me specific arguments as to why my "conclusion has no real evidence."
    1. First of all - and most importantly - you have the look at the collected evidence and draw your conclusion from that. You don't look at one isolated study that shows a negative effect & assume this now is "evidence" for said negative effect.

    In the case of IF, this is the ONLY study showing a reduction in REE/metabolic rate.

    Now consider:

    * Tons of trials on Ramadan fasting, none of which shows metabolic rate to be affected during chronic fasting (repeated bouts of 13-16 hrs).

    * All other trials using IF and/or ADF which show no effect on metabolic rate. There are 3 such studies referenced within the paper.

    * Studies on fasting which shows that metabolic rate increases in fasting due to increased levels of adrenaline/noradrenaline in the plasma.

    * One rigorously controlled 6-month RCT (the "gold standard" for clinical trials) on breakfast skippers vs breakfast eaters showing no effect on met rate in skippers (14-16 hrs fast).

    * This study on fasted training: http://www.leangains.com/2010/09/fas...nsitivity.html I can't recall if it was mentioned when the fasted group fed but I think it was in the afternoon. No effect on metabolic rate (& huge differences in bodycomposition in favor of the fasted group FWIW).

    Recently, I mentioned a few more studies in this article: http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top...-debunked.html

    So there's literally

    * dozens of controlled studies that find no effect of fasting on met rate

    * tons of other evidence (uncontrolled studies and epidemiological evidence)

    I can find studies that show no effect of protein supplementation, i.e. 8-12 week trials where post-workout whey intake or increased protein intake did not provide any significant advantage in conjunction with weight training.

    If you are interested in specific examples, you should be able to find a few here:

    http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/scdoc/1818.htm

    Off the top of my head, I can name one such study in the elderly & I know there's another one using younger adults.

    Does that mean we have "proof" that it's no use to eat a high-protein diet (i.e. the 2 g/kg Tipton & Phillips recommends for strength athletes)? No.

    Again, you don't single out ONE study and assume that it proves anything - you look at the collected evidence.




    2. Ok, so let's look at the study itself, because it has a few flaws + there's some strangeness that makes me question the methodology.

    * VERY small sample. 8 men - if one or two deviates, this would have a huge impact on results & the conclusion.

    * Blood samples for the fasted period was drawn at a time point CLOSER to feeding and this will give a lower met rate reading. In the SD trial, the REE could be higher due to postprandial TEF.

    * The REE-range in the IF-trial is HUGE which is very odd:

    IF (REE)1784 (1427–2003) ---------> someone had a 1427 reading which is very far from the mean

    SD (REE) 1864 (1774–2147) ---------> lowest reading is 1774 which is close to the mean

    Don't you think that's pretty strange? Like I said, one such deviation would impact the results SIGNIFICANTLY in a small sample of 8 men.

    There's more oddities (hint: look at RQ), but I think my point is getting across.

    1. The ONLY study showing a negative effect of IF on met rate.

    2. Said study has a small sample.

    3. And some very strange numbers if you look closely & know how to interpret them.
    Last edited by Martin Berkhan; 11-27-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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  9. #8679
    Registered User swaneon's Avatar
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    was wondering if using a pre workout could substitute for Bcaas?
    For me Jack3d works really well and I love intermittent fasting but i'd rather not buy Bcaas + a pre-workout
    since Jack3d does not contain protein and on IF i would not have eaten for 16 hours then would just taking a pre workout be detrimental?

  10. #8680
    Come at me bro!! SupahBrah's Avatar
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    I'm sorry if this has already been asked but I can't find the answer anywhere.

    I bought some amino acids tablets to take before I train. But they are in tablet form, is this still effective. I read on your leangains blog that you have to take more, but how much more?

    The label on the back says each tablet contains 1,000mg of hydrolysed protein.

    Am I right in thinking that is 1g of BCAA. So I would need 10 of them?
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  11. #8681
    Registered User Pikku's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SupahBrah View Post
    I'm sorry if this has already been asked but I can't find the answer anywhere.

    I bought some amino acids tablets to take before I train. But they are in tablet form, is this still effective. I read on your leangains blog that you have to take more, but how much more?

    The label on the back says each tablet contains 1,000mg of hydrolysed protein.

    Am I right in thinking that is 1g of BCAA. So I would need 10 of them?
    Tablets are fine, but are annoying to take/more expensive than powder.

    Next time get EAA/BCAA rather than hydro protein.

  12. #8682
    Registered User Pikku's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by swaneon View Post
    was wondering if using a pre workout could substitute for Bcaas?
    For me Jack3d works really well and I love intermittent fasting but i'd rather not buy Bcaas + a pre-workout
    since Jack3d does not contain protein and on IF i would not have eaten for 16 hours then would just taking a pre workout be detrimental?
    No.

    The whole point is to take in amino acids pre-workout (which has been shown beneficial by Tipton et al.) You can take BCAA and jacked together if you want.

    You could also use whey, or not train fasted, all of which still fits in with IF. Fasted training is only one permutation.

  13. #8683
    Registered User Pikku's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ArgentineMuscle View Post
    I haven't been losing any fat or weight which leads me to believe either something was wrong with me calculations or this diet isn't for me BUT!! I have been able to fit into my size 30 waist jeans and I do have a lean physique ...then i was thinking maybe I should restrict carbs to the post workout and rest of the day fats and proteins...any thoughts and also im not able to follow the 16/8 but the 20/4 like warrior diet because of school..
    Post: kcals, protein, fat and carbs for both training and rest days.

    Its all about energy balance. If you're not losing weight then you're eating too much. IF & carb cycling is good for adherance & partitioning, but it wont cause you to lose fat if you're not creating a deficit.

  14. #8684
    Jakt fibraz! MkADcision's Avatar
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    Do some of you guys doing the Leangains diet have one day a week when you throw your diet out the window and eat whenever/whatever you want?

    I mean some days you just want to eat a big breakfast, right...

  15. #8685
    Work. Learn. Win. Dexter3000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MkADcision View Post
    Do some of you guys doing the Leangains diet have one day a week when you throw your diet out the window and eat whenever/whatever you want?

    I mean some days you just want to eat a big breakfast, right...
    No. I like to keep the eating window the same every day, makes it a lot more convenient. Besides, I don't miss breakfasts in the morning at all.

    Cheat days are no longer happening since I cycle calories and I get to eat big 3 times a week. So no need for them. Refeeds may occur occasionally, but it will be within reasonable limits.

    However, there are people that do have breakfast in the morning in the weekends for example. If you like it, do it.
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  16. #8686
    Registered User sportyaccordy's Avatar
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    Did anyone else's lifts get weaker when they switched to fasted training? I've kept my calories about the same (switched to a higher protein diet though), and a few of my lifts have fallen off over the last 2 weeks. Is that normal?
    Intensity, Recovery, Nutrition, Sleep- the only things that matter.

  17. #8687
    USAPL Nut Hugger ErickStevens's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
    Did anyone else's lifts get weaker when they switched to fasted training? I've kept my calories about the same (switched to a higher protein diet though), and a few of my lifts have fallen off over the last 2 weeks. Is that normal?
    No. If anything I feel stronger! I set my still existing DL PR (455lb x 1 @ 200lb BW) during my last run of IF. The only detrimental effect I experience is decreased endurance. After about the thirty minute mark I definitely notice my strength dwindling, which is why I make sure to get the big lifts out of the way quickly before I hit up the accessory work. This is probably why Martin recommends a more high intensity/low volume approach.
    "Nutrition for powerlifting: If you are serious about it, you will eat f*cking everything and get strong as $hit." - HamburgerTrain
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  18. #8688
    Registered User Martin Berkhan's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
    Did anyone else's lifts get weaker when they switched to fasted training? I've kept my calories about the same (switched to a higher protein diet though), and a few of my lifts have fallen off over the last 2 weeks. Is that normal?
    Are you doing pump-n-tone-stuff with short rest periods or keeping it to 8 reps max with 3 mins rest periods like you should? For the former, strength, or rather endurance, might be affected during fasted training.

    The training routines I design are low volume, high intensity, usually 4-8 reps depending on the lift. Strength is almost always increased in such cases. Whether that be due to diet or training, or both, is hard to say - but the main point is that you might need to have another look at your training routine of you find yourself weaker during the fast because such an effect does not make sense if you consider it from an "energy system" perspective.

    That is, maximal strength or strength in the 4-8 rep range which is more dependent on the ATP-CP system should not be affected in fasted training.
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    Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
    Did anyone else's lifts get weaker when they switched to fasted training? I've kept my calories about the same (switched to a higher protein diet though), and a few of my lifts have fallen off over the last 2 weeks. Is that normal?
    Opposite for me. Fasted = greater strength.
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    Progress is progress mneugeba's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MkADcision View Post
    Do some of you guys doing the Leangains diet have one day a week when you throw your diet out the window and eat whenever/whatever you want?

    I mean some days you just want to eat a big breakfast, right...
    Yes. For me IF is all about convenience. For me, it's convenient to skip breakfast on weekdays - but I still eat breakfast with my family on the weekends (it should be noted that I typically break my fast at 11 on weekdays and about 10 on weekends ... so it's really not that far off.)
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    I must say this is quite easy to do, after the first couple of days. I acclimated to it very fast. I believe this is my ninth day now. I've been going from 8 P.M. to noon, sometimes 7 to noon. I've never cheated a minute under 16 hours.

    I usually work out in the evenings, so fasting hasn't been an issue for me. Yesterday I did my first fasted workout (I go in the mornings on weekends sometimes,) and it wasn't too bad. The weightlifting segment was fine. I then proceeded to do cardio, and I did start falling apart a bit with it. I called it quits at 20 minutes, normally I'd do more. I was just sluggish. Completely doable, though.

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    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    Are you doing pump-n-tone-stuff with short rest periods or keeping it to 8 reps max with 3 mins rest periods like you should? For the former, strength, or rather endurance, might be affected during fasted training.

    The training routines I design are low volume, high intensity, usually 4-8 reps depending on the lift. Strength is almost always increased in such cases. Whether that be due to diet or training, or both, is hard to say - but the main point is that you might need to have another look at your training routine of you find yourself weaker during the fast because such an effect does not make sense if you consider it from an "energy system" perspective.

    That is, maximal strength or strength in the 4-8 rep range which is more dependent on the ATP-CP system should not be affected in fasted training.
    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    No. If anything I feel stronger! I set my still existing DL PR (455lb x 1 @ 200lb BW) during my last run of IF. The only detrimental effect I experience is decreased endurance. After about the thirty minute mark I definitely notice my strength dwindling, which is why I make sure to get the big lifts out of the way quickly before I hit up the accessory work. This is probably why Martin recommends a more high intensity/low volume approach.
    My program is kind of a mix of the pump/high intensity stuff. For big compound lifts, I limit reps between 6-9/set for 3 to 4 sets with a 2-4 minute rest (longer rests for bigger lifts). For accessory lifts I generally do 10-12 reps/set for 4 sets, w/shorter rests (generally 2 minutes). I do 3-4 compound lifts and 1 accessory for each workout and work out 4 days a week.

    Understandably, energy wise, fasted training should be the same as "feasted" training; however, for me personally anyway I find that I'm prime for lifting around 7-9 PM. So switching to fasted lifting at around 12 noon was a double shock, which is why I was wondering whether an initial acclamation performance dip was the norm. But I find that I'm a lot more tired mentally now, w/dips more in endurance than all out strength. So I might just be hitting the same strength ruts as Erick.

    What times of day were people generally working out before IF, and what times do people work out now?
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    I explained intermittent fasting to my father and he found the whole thing interesting and think it might have weight loss benefits but then he said something that I hadn't considered.

    How healthy is to stretch the stomach so much to accomodate the same amount of food one would eat in a day. Doesn't the stomach have a certain size? Doesn't overfilling it is unhealthy?

    I have read on leangains site of people eating 3 pounds of roastbeef or 10 sandwiches, how can that be healthy and not force the stomach to accomode mode food than it can with bad consequences like stomach distress or bloating or hernia or something?

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    Originally Posted by danny9-1 View Post
    I explained intermittent fasting to my father and he found the whole thing interesting and think it might have weight loss benefits but then he said something that I hadn't considered.

    How healthy is to stretch the stomach so much to accomodate the same amount of food one would eat in a day. Doesn't the stomach have a certain size? Doesn't overfilling it is unhealthy?

    I have read on leangains site of people eating 3 pounds of roastbeef or 10 sandwiches, how can that be healthy and not force the stomach to accomode mode food than it can with bad consequences like stomach distress or bloating or hernia or something?
    Eating to that extent is not the norm. For most, IF amounts to eating your breakfast calories later in the day. You don't need to be on IF to eat 10 sandwiches
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    USAPL Nut Hugger ErickStevens's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
    My program is kind of a mix of the pump/high intensity stuff. For big compound lifts, I limit reps between 6-9/set for 3 to 4 sets with a 2-4 minute rest (longer rests for bigger lifts). For accessory lifts I generally do 10-12 reps/set for 4 sets, w/shorter rests (generally 2 minutes). I do 3-4 compound lifts and 1 accessory for each workout and work out 4 days a week.

    Understandably, energy wise, fasted training should be the same as "feasted" training; however, for me personally anyway I find that I'm prime for lifting around 7-9 PM. So switching to fasted lifting at around 12 noon was a double shock, which is why I was wondering whether an initial acclamation performance dip was the norm. But I find that I'm a lot more tired mentally now, w/dips more in endurance than all out strength. So I might just be hitting the same strength ruts as Erick.

    What times of day were people generally working out before IF, and what times do people work out now?
    I train in the late morning/early afternoon. I don't know what your current set progression is like, but I'd recommend using Martin's Reverse Pyramid Training. I've found this is the next best thing to training in HIT fashion. Instead of pyramiding the weight up, the first set of the exercise is the heaviest one. The next one or two sets you can focus on "the pump" or exhausting the muscle.

    I'm using a modified Westside template and recently switched all my accessory work to RPT style and I've found it works much better. I also shaved a little bit of volume off in order to "force" myself to bust my ass instead of saving energy for an arbitrary fourth set.

    Originally Posted by danny9-1 View Post
    I explained intermittent fasting to my father and he found the whole thing interesting and think it might have weight loss benefits but then he said something that I hadn't considered.

    How healthy is to stretch the stomach so much to accomodate the same amount of food one would eat in a day. Doesn't the stomach have a certain size? Doesn't overfilling it is unhealthy?

    I have read on leangains site of people eating 3 pounds of roastbeef or 10 sandwiches, how can that be healthy and not force the stomach to accomode mode food than it can with bad consequences like stomach distress or bloating or hernia or something?
    IF doesn't work for everybody. IF works great for me because I'm a big eater. I can eat lots of food. Lots. Even when I eat ~1000 calories I don't feel uncomfortably stuffed, I just feel nicely satiated. That's why I always get frustrated when these skinny dudes decide to use IF to bulk and then complain that they can't get in their required calories. If you can't eat big without feeling horrible then you need to try a different approach.

    I love IF because:

    1. It takes the pressure/stress out of diet. Before I train I can get stuff done without worrying about food. I train, eat, then get back to doing stuff without worrying about toting around tupperware or eating at specific intervals.

    2. Big meals. Like I said, I'm a big eater. I like feeling full after I eat. Enough said.

    3. Fasted training. I feel more focused, energetic, and stronger when I train fasted. Your mileage may vary.

    4. Quality > Quantity. When you have ~2300 calories to distribute between two meals, it allows you get very creative in ways you may not have been able to before. If I was eating every 2-3 hours I'd only have ~350 calories to use per meal. That doesn't allow the same type of culinary freedom that ~1000 calories does. For guys like me who enjoy more than chicken/rice/broccoli it's a blessing.

    5. Did I mention big meals?
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    Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
    Eating to that extent is not the norm.
    Well, but that's what I found on Martin's site
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/int...-part-two.html

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    Tried my best to follow IF but it just couldn't happen haha. Thursday-Saturday was spent with my family which is always nice. Still went to the gym and did what I could. Not going to worry about it as family/social time with them > IF. Prolly ate too much but it's all good.

    Body feels good though and it is amazing to see how much better you perform in the gym when eating enough food. Such a great feeling. Chest/back is bigger. Arms seem bigger. Same with thighs. At least, that's what the the measurements say. Waist is more or less the same (1/4 inch variation).

    This week is my deload/light week but I will still go hard enough to get on a good sweat. Just won't overdo it.

    Also, my eating situation is the same as ErickStevens. I can easily put down 1000-1500 calories a meal. I can just go crazy with my food. I like IF because it gives me that freedom. 2-4 meals a day is perfect. Prepare more when I eat at home and eating at work is easy because sandwiches, milk, fruit, etc is easy to prepare.
    Last edited by acj4k; 11-30-2010 at 09:42 AM.

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    Originally Posted by danny9-1 View Post
    Well, but that's what I found on Martin's site
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/08/int...-part-two.html
    Erick hit it right on the head. If you're having trouble fitting 2-3k calories into 8 hours then IMO IF isn't for you. It allows you to eat big. If you don't like eating big you can either eat more calorie dense foods or find another protocol.

    Personally I don't know how people have trouble eating more than like 500 calories in a sitting... I kind of envy them... would make cutting a hell of a lot easier
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    Originally Posted by iDrive View Post
    Erick hit it right on the head. If you're having trouble fitting 2-3k calories into 8 hours then IMO IF isn't for you. It allows you to eat big. If you don't like eating big you can either eat more calorie dense foods or find another protocol.

    Personally I don't know how people have trouble eating more than like 500 calories in a sitting... I kind of envy them... would make cutting a hell of a lot easier
    I agree. I can sit down and eat like 2000 calories in one sitting, albeit that's with dense calorie foods. Eating the same amount in chicken and broccoli, maybe not so much.


    On a side note I'm trying to eat more Paleo lately. Eating chicken, steamed veggies and drinking tea often. Anyone eat similar to this? I'm following the "primal diet" which is very similar to the Paleo diet. It's rough, just looking for someone who eats this way on a regular basis and can give me some motivation.
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    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    I train in the late morning/early afternoon. I don't know what your current set progression is like, but I'd recommend using Martin's Reverse Pyramid Training. I've found this is the next best thing to training in HIT fashion. Instead of pyramiding the weight up, the first set of the exercise is the heaviest one. The next one or two sets you can focus on "the pump" or exhausting the muscle.

    I'm using a modified Westside template and recently switched all my accessory work to RPT style and I've found it works much better. I also shaved a little bit of volume off in order to "force" myself to bust my ass instead of saving energy for an arbitrary fourth set.
    I've been all over the place w/progression on my accessories. For a while I did RPT, and I actually liked that a lot. For example for a while on my curls I was doing 105x8, 95x10, 85x12. Now I'm doing 4x105x8. So I made progress. Might have to keep alternating like that to continue to make strides.
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