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  1. #5971
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    Originally Posted by liammccarthy View Post
    Less than 50g Fat? Even at the lowest end of the spectrum, and using only lean mass as an indicator I should be having at 58g of Fat per day...

    What's the reasoning for such low fat?
    IMO you should be higher in fat on your other days (you need more calories on those days)and then you jack up carbs on refeed day
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  2. #5972
    Registered User liammccarthy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    Agreed. A 500 calorie deficit on a training day (and a 1000 on non) sounds like muscle loss to me.
    Too high on refeed.
    I was leaning towards this thinking also, but I always tend to over-eat on weekends... I wanted to see how I would fare with lower cals during the week and a high kCal refeed day.

    Still experimenting with different approaches.....

  3. #5973
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    Originally Posted by liammccarthy View Post
    I was leaning towards this thinking also, but I always tend to over-eat on weekends... I wanted to see how I would fare with lower cals during the week and a high kCal refeed day.

    Still experimenting with different approaches.....
    but if you are i a 500 deficit there is no way you are giving your body the ability to repair-->muscle breakdown on workout days
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  4. #5974
    Registered User liammccarthy's Avatar
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    true. but I am a meso/endo build and retain/build muscle and fat quite easily. This is more of an experimental diet to test my own body.

    Basically I just wanted confirmation of my own thoughts about this diet for the average person from others, which you have done. Thanks.

    I tried going with less of a deficit during the week but come the weekend, the 'refeed' (just my excuse to go nuts) was too big, resulting in no fat loss.

    When I get fully motivated to stick to a proper diet week in, week out... I know what is needed (less deficit during the week on rest days, even less on training days, smaller refeed) At the moment I have a lot of business / social functions on weekends that I am enjoying. I am going to experiment with a couple of different approaches and see if I can't get something working for me with my current lifestyle.

  5. #5975
    Registered User liammccarthy's Avatar
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    What sort of lifting program are people using while cutting on IF? State whether you're trianing fasted or fed too

  6. #5976
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    [QUOTE=liammccarthy;484229741]

    I tried going with less of a deficit during the week but come the weekend, the 'refeed' (just my excuse to go nuts) was too big, resulting in no fat loss.

    When I get fully motivated to stick to a proper diet week in, week out/QUOTE]

    hit the nail on the head here
    What you are doing will not be beneficial in anyway as far as body comp IMO. You should have basically said you were looking for a way to eat what ever you wanted 1 day a week and not gain weight. As long as you are following this approach, I dont think the specifics of any of the days in terms of calories and macros matter at all.
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  7. #5977
    Registered User liammccarthy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=determined4000;484236121]
    Originally Posted by liammccarthy View Post

    I tried going with less of a deficit during the week but come the weekend, the 'refeed' (just my excuse to go nuts) was too big, resulting in no fat loss.

    When I get fully motivated to stick to a proper diet week in, week out/QUOTE]

    hit the nail on the head here
    What you are doing will not be beneficial in anyway as far as body comp IMO. You should have basically said you were looking for a way to eat what ever you wanted 1 day a week and not gain weight. As long as you are following this approach, I dont think the specifics of any of the days in terms of calories and macros matter at all.
    I've been doign the above diet for the past 2 weeks and lost 3 kg with no maximal strength loss (actually gained in some of my lifts due to starting a new cycle of Creatine actually), probably lagging strength a little towards the end of my workouts in sets with 10+ reps but that is expected with such an energy deficit.

    If I continue to net positive results in regards to fat loss over the next 2 weeks I will post my results in this thread. If I feel I am losing a lot of muscle/strength I'll get back less of a deficit and try and cut down the refeed.

  8. #5978
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    a shamelessly lazy question

    200 pages, god damn.

    the question I have is: i notice that martin advocates raising carbs up on workout days and making them lower on off days. not just specifically making energy intake lower on off days, but making carbs specifically lower (and fat a bit higher).

    My question is - why? I get the rationale behind making off days lower in calories, but why higher in fat and lower in carbs? What is the detriment to still having high carbs on off days, assuming that the off days are still lower in calories? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

    Is it just that Martin advocates a minimum amount of fat every day for test reasons or something, and thus the only way to lower calories on off days is to cut carbs?

    Thanks

  9. #5979
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    A 14 month cut completed on LeanGains

    I found Martin Berkhan on this very thread sometime in February of 2009. I contacted him and started with him officially on March 9, 2009. My weight was 230.8 at that time, having lost 4 pounds while waiting for his routine. I turn 39 in two weeks.

    Here are the results:

    Early 2009, pre-cut weight 230+:



    April 22, 2009 weight 226-228, 5 weeks in:



    June 18, 2009, weight 196.2:



    July 11, 2009, weight 192:



    Sept 26, 2009, weight 180:



    I stopped taking progress pics, as I get really busy with work in November/December, traveled a lot for work in January and was more or less just lazy with pics. However, I kept on LeanGains the whole time, but could have lost the weight faster with less travel, less work and better diet adherence. Oh yeah, it was football season, so I had to drink once a week, right? Either way, I really bore down in March and April, and finished on May 1st.

    May 1, 2010, weight 161.4:





    Total weight lost on LeanGains cut, 69.4 lbs in 13 months, 21 days. Bodyfat percentage from 25% to approx 7% (according to Martin).

    Needless to say, I am a very satisfied client. I love intermittent fasting, love Martin's program and guidance, and anyone that has doubts can just look at the results.

    What's next? One week of maintenance, then the nice and sloooow bulk commences.
    March 9, 2009 - May 1, 2010 - LeanGains - lost 69 lbs, and 18% of my bodyfat.

    IF for life.

  10. #5980
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    Originally Posted by LeroysAces View Post
    I found Martin Berkhan on this very thread sometime in February of 2009. I contacted him and started with him officially on March 9, 2009. My weight was 230.8 at that time, having lost 4 pounds while waiting for his routine. I turn 39 in two weeks.

    Here are the results:

    Early 2009, pre-cut weight 230+:



    April 22, 2009 weight 226-228, 5 weeks in:



    June 18, 2009, weight 196.2:



    July 11, 2009, weight 192:



    Sept 26, 2009, weight 180:



    I stopped taking progress pics, as I get really busy with work in November/December, traveled a lot for work in January and was more or less just lazy with pics. However, I kept on LeanGains the whole time, but could have lost the weight faster with less travel, less work and better diet adherence. Oh yeah, it was football season, so I had to drink once a week, right? Either way, I really bore down in March and April, and finished on May 1st.

    May 1, 2010, weight 161.4:





    Total weight lost on LeanGains cut, 69.4 lbs in 13 months, 21 days. Bodyfat percentage from 25% to approx 7% (according to Martin).

    Needless to say, I am a very satisfied client. I love intermittent fasting, love Martin's program and guidance, and anyone that has doubts can just look at the results.

    What's next? One week of maintenance, then the nice and sloooow bulk commences.
    kick ass man.. rock on!

  11. #5981
    Registered User Heatmiser's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    My question is - why? I get the rationale behind making off days lower in calories, but why higher in fat and lower in carbs? What is the detriment to still having high carbs on off days, assuming that the off days are still lower in calories? Or am I misunderstanding something here?Thanks
    Isn't the point to have higher carbs on training days mainly for insulin to promote growth and to replenish muscle glycogen post-workout?

    Then on off-days when you are recovering you replace the carbs with fat to keep hormone levels up and minimize insulin. Fat is very satiating, so there's probably no downside as long as the total calories stays within range.
    Last edited by Heatmiser; 05-03-2010 at 05:39 PM.

  12. #5982
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heatmiser View Post
    Isn't the point to have higher carbs on training days mainly for insulin to promote growth and to replenish muscle glycogen post-workout?

    Then on off-days when you are recovering you replace the carbs with fat to keep hormone levels up and minimize insulin. Fat is very satiating, so there's probably no downside as long as the total calories stays within range.
    you're saying to keep insulin low on off days to control hunger?

  13. #5983
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    btw, leroy's aces -- excellent work.

    so at 180 you still had to drop 20 more lbs to get that shredded? i would have thought you were only 5-10 lbs away, it looked like you were insanely close at 180... you had a six pack going and everything

  14. #5984
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    you're saying to keep insulin low on off days to control hunger?
    I'm just guessing, but I think that's what going on with Martin's recommendations. But definitely post-workout is when you want your biggest spike of blood sugar and that's when you'll get the biggest benefit if nutrients are available to be assimilated.

    Generally speaking, the lower and more stable my blood sugar the less hunger cravings I experience, especially what I call the "blood sugar" hunger that feels different from more moderate low-level fat burning hunger. It's the hunger I get a few hours after lunch for example when eating 3-5 small meals a day (traditional grazing diet) - even when I'm on maintenance calories I just get these incredible urges to consume carby foods as if my body was breaking down minute by minute. But when I fast I often have to remind myself to eat and break the fast.

    So the less frequently I eat, the less hungry I am, which seems contradictory at face value but many people who fast report the same thing. I think its the insulin/leptin changes responsible for this. I still feel a little "tingly" hunger, but its also a weird energy boost euphoric feeling.
    Last edited by Heatmiser; 05-03-2010 at 11:14 PM.

  15. #5985
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Heatmiser View Post
    I'm just guessing, but I think that's what going on with Martin's recommendations. But definitely post-workout is when you want your biggest spike of blood sugar and that's when you'll get the biggest benefit if nutrients are available to be assimilated.

    Generally speaking, the lower and more stable my blood sugar the less hunger cravings I experience, especially what I call the "blood sugar" hunger that feels different from more moderate low-level fat burning hunger. It's the hunger I get a few hours after lunch for example when eating 3-5 small meals a day (traditional grazing diet) - even when I'm on maintenance calories I just get these incredible urges to consume carby foods as if my body was breaking down minute by minute. But when I fast I often have to remind myself to eat and break the fast.

    So the less frequently I eat, the less hungry I am, which seems contradictory at face value but many people who fast report the same thing. I think its the insulin/leptin changes responsible for this. I still feel a little "tingly" hunger, but its also a weird energy boost euphoric feeling.
    i agree with this 100% and i have this half assed theory that it boils down to hunger from insulin crashing vs hunger from ghrelin going up. protein seems to satisfy the latter, carbs the former.

    i hadn't considered that the virtue of keeping carbs low on the offdays might be due to some metabolic reason with the fast. but my question is more -- is there any HARM done in making the off-days lower in fat instead of lower in carbs?

    in general, i notice i tend to eat less fat and more carbs naturally, and it's been working out fine for me so far.

  16. #5986
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    is there any HARM done in making the off-days lower in fat instead of lower in carbs?
    .
    your body "needs" protein and fat, not carbs
    if you lower calories on off days you have to take from somewhere
    carbs are the most logical place
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  17. #5987
    in haiti, cut is paused Insight's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    your body "needs" protein and fat, not carbs
    if you lower calories on off days you have to take from somewhere
    carbs are the most logical place
    ok, but let's put it this way

    i always see this mythical 0.5g/lb TBW of fat guideline

    why?

    i've been going under that for a while with no ill effects, i generally tend to eat more carbs than fat naturaly

    although recently my lifts have been suffering but i would expect that's more a consequence of my intake getting low enough that zeroing in on expenditure/nonlinear intake is the way to go

  18. #5988
    USAPL Nut Hugger ErickStevens's Avatar
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    Nice job Leroy! I've only been using LeanGains for 6 weeks, but here's my progress:



    Still got a ways to go though.
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  19. #5989
    Registered User LeroysAces's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Insight View Post
    btw, leroy's aces -- excellent work.

    so at 180 you still had to drop 20 more lbs to get that shredded? i would have thought you were only 5-10 lbs away, it looked like you were insanely close at 180... you had a six pack going and everything
    I got dehydrated to bring out the muscle, which is why I was 161.4. My actual non-dehydrated weight right now is about 164-165, so it was about 15 more pounds I lost.

    For such a short post, your thought process here is virtually identical to mine in late September. I was thinking, yeah, I am right there. And honestly, mentally, I felt like "yeah, I look great, so I am fine and pretty much right there now." Then Martin emailed and he said, "Nice job, you still have a lot of lower ab fat, and that takes a long time to come off for guys who were fat like you were." And I thought, "Oh Sh*t"

    Also, I had to really "get there" mentally to lose the final 8 pounds. And that is very tough to do when you used to be 25% bodyfat and now are sitting at 173 and 9-10% (as a guess). I mean you look really good and friends are commenting and all that. Finally, Martin just said, "So are we gonna get this done or what?"

    The last month though, I was killing it, because Martin said he wanted to do a client update with me included at the end of April/early May. Doing 90 minutes to 2 hours of walking a day, diet was dead on, no drinking. That was the motivation I needed.
    Last edited by LeroysAces; 05-04-2010 at 12:59 PM.
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  20. #5990
    Registered User LeroysAces's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ErickStevens View Post
    Nice job Leroy! I've only been using LeanGains for 6 weeks, but here's my progress:



    Still got a ways to go though.
    Yeah, I had commented before on it, excellent job! You have a very good muscle base, too, so I bet you will be a monster once you hit your fat loss goals. I wish I could get a freakin' tan, haha.
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  21. #5991
    dem bad jeans t1ger's Avatar
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    Respect, Leroy. That is some fantastic hard work and serious dedication.

  22. #5992
    Twice the man I was Malkira's Avatar
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    GREAT work Leroy. Hope to get down to a similar bf% myself. I'm not sure if asking this is faux pas, but how much did your consultation/training with Martin cost?
    Last edited by Malkira; 05-04-2010 at 08:33 AM.
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  23. #5993
    Registered User Danco3636's Avatar
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    Nice job LeroysAces, I started with Martin just over a month ago.... Looking forward to my results as well.

    Question, how did your strength hold up when you were cutting and where you lifting at all before starting?
    Dan-

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  24. #5994
    Registered User LeroysAces's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Malkira View Post
    GREAT work Leroy. Hope to get down to a similar bf% myself. I'm not sure if asking this is faux pas, but how much did your consultation/training with Martin cost?
    I think it is best to just shoot Martin an email, just in case it is an issue. Plus, I have no idea what his initial consult currently runs.
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  25. #5995
    Registered User LeroysAces's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Danco3636 View Post
    Nice job LeroysAces, I started with Martin just over a month ago.... Looking forward to my results as well.

    Question, how did your strength hold up when you were cutting and where you lifting at all before starting?
    I was lifting previously, yes. I was not doing ANY deadlifting at all though. So, I was benching 245 by 5, squatting maybe 335 by 6-7, and deadlifting 315-335 to start. I actually had some newbie gains from deadlift due to inexperience.

    Going all the way from 234 down to 164 where I am now, my bench dropped by about 20 pounds I would say. My squats actually improved (probably due to deadlifts) and then have dropped a little bit near the end. My deadlifts also improved and have since dropped slightly right at the end.

    Right now, I bench 225 by 5, squat 371 by 7, and deadlift 391 by 4-5 or so. That is at 164, so I am really pleased with those numbers entering the slow bulking phase. My best lifts ever over the past 14 months, I could bench 245 by 5 (at the start), squat 386 by 6-7 (middle) and deadlift 396 by 5 (last month or so as form has improved more and more).

    On a relative weight basis, I am MUCH MUCH stronger. For example, when I started, I needed 30 pounds of assistance to do 6 chinups. Now I can do 6 with 55 pounds around my waist. I really want to be able to 6 with like 75-80 pounds, mostly because it looks badass, hahaha.
    Last edited by LeroysAces; 05-04-2010 at 01:00 PM.
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  26. #5996
    Registered User sportyaccordy's Avatar
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    Leroy's Aces- great job man. Just out of curiousity what was your average daily caloric deficit?
    Intensity, Recovery, Nutrition, Sleep- the only things that matter.

  27. #5997
    Registered User Danco3636's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LeroysAces View Post
    I was lifting previously, yes. I was not doing ANY deadlifting at all though. So, I was benching 245 by 5, squatting maybe 335 by 6-7, and deadlifting 315-335 to start. I actually had some newbie gains from deadlift due to inexperience.

    Going all the way from 234 down to 164 where I am now, my bench dropped by about 20 pounds I would say. My squats actually improved (probably due to deadlifts) and then have dropped a little bit near the end. My deadlifts also improved and have since dropped slightly right at the end.

    Right now, I bench 225 by 5, squat 371 by 7, and deadlift 391 by 4-5 or so. That is at 164, so I am really pleased with those numbers entering the slow bulking phase. My best lifts ever over the past 14 months, I could bench 245 by 5 (at the start), squat 386 by 6-7 (middle) and deadlift 396 by 5 (last month or so as form has improved more and more).

    On a relative weight basis, I am MUCH MUCH stronger. For example, when I started, I needed 30 pounds of assistance to do 6 chinups. Now I can do 6 with 55 pounds around my waist. I really want to be able to 6 with like 75-80 pounds, mostly because it looks badass, hahaha.
    Right on! Those are great numbers.... When beginning my cutting my DL had dropped but now seems to be coming back. I have improved a lot on my chins doing 92.5lbs x 6 a personal best and my bench seems to be holding on to my starting range, around 275 for 6. Some of the improvement on chins may be a loss of body weight and maintaining strength.

    Thanks for the reply it really helps.
    Dan-

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  28. #5998
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    Early morning fasted training

    The details will soon be revealed and this part of the article will be edited to include a sample setup. This protocol will be viewed as controversial and deserves a post on it's own explaining the reasoning and results from my experiments with it.


    Still waiting for this...as it pertains to me.

  29. #5999
    Research Associate adoboandryce's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RobocopIsBack View Post
    Early morning fasted training

    The details will soon be revealed and this part of the article will be edited to include a sample setup. This protocol will be viewed as controversial and deserves a post on it's own explaining the reasoning and results from my experiments with it.


    Still waiting for this...as it pertains to me.
    Me too. But I'm more just waiting for the book to be published...
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  30. #6000
    Chef Bob The Solution's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RobocopIsBack View Post
    Early morning fasted training
    Train With BCAA's, 1st meal follows and you have an 8 hour window.
    Simple, he has stated this MANY times before.
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