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  1. #5101
    Chef Bob The Solution's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ski23man View Post

    The bold up above is definitely me, 100-150+ carbs and I started to add mass again...
    Depends, given enough room in your overall calories you could do a higher carb / lower fat approach. Its reading your body. Do you feel energetic when you eat carbs, have you did a higher carb diet where you tracked your calories? Do you feel lethargic eating a lot of carbs? these are the things you have to ask yourself before you can make assumptions. Some Endo's will get fat just eating 30g of carbs, and some people can handle up to 500+g of carbs (myself) while bulking. If everything is consistent and you are tracking your calories this will dictate what works best.
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  2. #5102
    Skiman ski23man's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LayzieBone085 View Post
    Depends, given enough room in your overall calories you could do a higher carb / lower fat approach. Its reading your body. Do you feel energetic when you eat carbs, have you did a higher carb diet where you tracked your calories? Do you feel lethargic eating a lot of carbs? these are the things you have to ask yourself before you can make assumptions. Some Endo's will get fat just eating 30g of carbs, and some people can handle up to 500+g of carbs (myself) while bulking. If everything is consistent and you are tracking your calories this will dictate what works best.
    Tru, yes I've track everything. It's at a deficit and carbs have always made me feel strong, I can definitely tell the difference when dropping to 50 grams and then increasing and for that next two weeks of experimenting I will weigh heavier at the same body fat.
    March 3rd--------------210lbs.
    March 12th------------204lbs.
    April 3rd----------------200lbs.
    April 24th--------------198lbs.
    May 1st----------------194lbs.
    May 15th--------------191lbs.
    June 6th---------------191lbs. (steady)
    July 18th---------------190lbs.
    Sept 12th--------------189lbs.
    Nov 18th---------------200lbs. (clean bulk)
    Jan 16th----------------188lbs.
    Feb 6th-----------------184lbs.
    Mar 6th-----------------181lbs.

  3. #5103
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    Originally Posted by ski23man View Post
    K guys I'm going go and try this today, so do I get this right most of you guys on the IF diet are working out fasted? I've been eating clean for a number of years to where I've restricted GI's and even my sodium intake to 1-2 grams a day and no matter what I've been added more mass if I have carbs in the morning for energy, pre-workout and post workout meal. I'm not fat by any means but on this kind of bodybuilding diet I'm seeing that my results go no further from tapering more fat off my midsection for abs.

    I was thinking something like this for my normal day on this diet. Goin to bed at midnight.

    9:00 - 4 (fasted stated)Green Tea/water/Purple Wrath BCAA
    5:00 - workout
    6:30 - post workout
    9:00 - meal 2
    12:00 - meal 3

    Of course these would have to be bigger meals to accommodate for the calories but I just wanted to check if I was on the right path...

    Also how are people's macros on this, are they still low carbs with the only meal with carbs being the post workout meal?
    sounds fine to me
    I dont regularly eat meals in the normal sense anymore
    I just plan out what I need to take in for the day and gradually eat through it during my feeding period which is all PWO. Its not the same everyday though due to different schedules during the week. Somedays its 15 hrs fasted, others its 17+. But my body and mind are used to it and I actually feel no difference between days.
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  4. #5104
    eat meat, u f@g. bretter's Avatar
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    Im new to IF but loving it.

    question, assuming protein stays constant from day to day during the 8 hour window,
    do you pay much attention to the %'s of carbs and fat for the remaining calories?

    I do mostly high low gi carb and keep fat around 20-30% on training days.

    on off-days I do i more high fat / low carb approach. (no resistance training, so no glycogen replenishment needed)


    How does that look? Its like IF with carb cycling. Im endo. thanks

  5. #5105
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    sounds fine to me
    I dont regularly eat meals in the normal sense anymore
    I just plan out what I need to take in for the day and gradually eat through it during my feeding period which is all PWO. Its not the same everyday though due to different schedules during the week. Somedays its 15 hrs fasted, others its 17+. But my body and mind are used to it and I actually feel no difference between days.
    Yesterday was my first fast and I felt pretty decent at the gym and had the same power as I would with my regular diet. I did break the fast immediately whenever I got home with a pre-workout meal and a protein shake was being sipped on during my workout and all went very well.

    So here goes another fast for today as well! I think I'm going to take the consideration of just trying to have my calories within the 8 hour window as it seems like it's more manageable as well instead of meals...
    March 3rd--------------210lbs.
    March 12th------------204lbs.
    April 3rd----------------200lbs.
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    May 1st----------------194lbs.
    May 15th--------------191lbs.
    June 6th---------------191lbs. (steady)
    July 18th---------------190lbs.
    Sept 12th--------------189lbs.
    Nov 18th---------------200lbs. (clean bulk)
    Jan 16th----------------188lbs.
    Feb 6th-----------------184lbs.
    Mar 6th-----------------181lbs.

  6. #5106
    Chef Bob The Solution's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bretter View Post
    Im new to IF but loving it.

    question, assuming protein stays constant from day to day during the 8 hour window,
    do you pay much attention to the %'s of carbs and fat for the remaining calories?

    I do mostly high low gi carb and keep fat around 20-30% on training days.

    on off-days I do i more high fat / low carb approach. (no resistance training, so no glycogen replenishment needed)


    How does that look? Its like IF with carb cycling. Im endo. thanks
    Its personal preference. I agree with your setup. Read this


    Intermittent Fasting by Martin Berkhan

    An example of how an IF recomp may be structured (random snippets from my IF guide, which is a work in progress):

    Fasting period lasts 16 hrs. This means you initiate your first meal 16 hrs before eating the last meal on the night before (which is easily done by skipping breakfast and lunch). Thus, ideally all eating is done within an 8 +-1 hour timeframe. Most do well with 3 meals, but some may even prefer 2 or 4. In order to have a steady supply of amino acids in your blood during the fast, I suggest the last meal consists of whole foods and some slow digesting protein (cottage cheese for example).

    non-WO days: only lean protein and veggies (max 100 g carbs). Stay in the 1200-1500 kcal range and include 60-90 min of low intensity cardio. Kcal intake on these days is set to approximately 50% maintenance for most males.

    WO-days: have a moderate sized meal of 50-60/50-60 carb/pro (minimum fat) pre-WO (approx 450-550 kcal). PWO-meal is ideally a high carb, moderate protein and low fat refeed. Kcal target for this day should be around maintenance+25% with the absolute majority of kcals eaten PWO. General guidelines for this day is (at least) 1 g protein/bw and 2 g carbs/ bw, and then you may fill out with whatever macronutrient you want to a certain degree. Ideally, emphasis should be put on carbs while fat intake is kept low; these conditions are the most favourable in order to prevent fat storage and optimize glycogen storage.

    For the recomp protocol to work effectively, you need to balance the surplus days with the deficit days. This means that an EOD workout routine is ideal for those wishing progressive lean gains accompanied by fat loss. 2-3x week WO routines delivers faster results for people with bodyfat loss as a main priority.



    Why would I do Intermittent Fasting along with weightlifting?

    I will briefly outline the benefits of IF in this post. All the claims made are scientifically proven through empirical studies on humans.

    * Increased insulin sensitivity, possibly resulting in superior nutrient partitioning as compared to traditional meal patterns; especially when combined with weightlifting. There are also several other health benefits, including improved blood lipids (scientifically proven).

    * Possible to reduce bodyfat and increase lean mass through a cyclic calorie intake.

    * No more obsessive thinking about food and worrying about eating every second hour.

    * Very liberal approach to calorie intake in the eating window (8 hrs) and post-workout window; you can eat to your hearts content and still lose bodyfat.

    * Increased mental focus, energy and productivity during the fast.

    * Increased metabolism during the fast. Ironically, most people think it?s the other way around.

    * Appetite suppression during the fast. This is particularily beneficial if your main priority is to lose bodyfat.

    That being said, IF is not a universal solution to gaining lean mass and losing bodyfat. Just like there are people that prefer high carbohydrate diets, and loathe low carb diets, some people will prefer a higher meal frequency and more regular meal patterning. However, those that like IF rarely go back to their old habits of meal patterning and meal frequencies.


    Simplification of the IF protocol as I see it, 48 hrs (standard EOD WO routine):

    Day 1:

    hours 00-16 (fasting, fat burning phase)

    hours 16-24 (pre-wo meal breaks the fast. A heavy workout sends a growth stimulus. Overfeeding occurs. If macros are controlled, short term fat gain is avoided while providing adequate nutrition for growth to occur post-workout and during sleep).

    hours 24-40 (fasting, PW meal still digesting)

    hours 40-48 (eating window, high protein intake, deficit during this day sets the stage for lipolysis during hours 48-66, and so it goes on)

    Basically, nutrients are provided in adequate amounts during the phase when the body is most likely to use them for selective anabolism of muscle tissue. A controlled refeed, where fat intake is kept low (thus preventing de novo lpiogenesis), prevents de novo lipogenesis and may allow fat burning to resume shortly.
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  7. #5107
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    I defintely agree with Layzie bones about having your last meal substantial. I get a good amount of protein (CC, eggs) as well as fat and fiber to hold me over.
    I don't fully agree with the need to swing macros so much based on whether it is a workout day or not. Non-WO days just keep calories in check (dont necessarily have to be extremely low in carbs) and workout days just eat your normal intake, not necesarily high carb-low fat (I never would go below .5g/lb in fat).
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  8. #5108
    Registered User Martin Berkhan's Avatar
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    That must be quite old. I have changed my views on several aspects since then.
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  9. #5109
    Chef Bob The Solution's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Great read on the leangains site about the Reverse Pyramid Training Martin! Keep up the good work!
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  10. #5110
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    Question

    Originally Posted by Martin Berkhan View Post
    That must be quite old. I have changed my views on several aspects since then.
    what are your "new views" now??

    steve

  11. #5111
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    probably not bothered by the keto-esque parts.

    Wait for the book

  12. #5112
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    I just wanted to check into the IF thread and offer a few comments.

    I am still on Leangains and working with Martin. I am glad to be down to the 178-180 range now. Started in March at 230+ and my pics start at 196 pounds and my recent profile pic is at 180. I will diet down to about 167-170 or a full six pack/ripped and then start a very slow bulk.

    Over the past 7 months, I have had a fantastic experience with this lifestyle and method of eating. I do workout fasted (take caffeine and Xtend on lifting days) and have kept most strength. I have lost a little strength in bench, but when you drop 50 pounds, you cannot expect to keep everything and I am sure I will get it back when I slow bulk. My Deadlifts have gotten better and squats are about the same, too. Of course, bodyweight stuff like chinups are vastly improved as I can now do about 15 or so at bodyweight and 6 with an added 50 pounds, vs. doing maybe 2-3 at bodyweight when I started.

    I need to get a substantial amount of protein with this method of eating, and I really enjoy eating lean steak, chicken breast and eggs (mostly whites) on a daily basis. I have stopped taking protein supplements completely and really endorse the whole foods approach, as it helps to satiate me quite a bit more than a protein shake. Fitday.com has been a great help for tracking. I am pretty lazy with carb quality on lifting days and enjoy Cocoa Pebbles with skim milk after many a workout. It doesn't seem to matter much as long as the calories work out. One really cool thing is that I have not needed to adjust my calories since starting. Granted my weight loss has slowed as I get closer to goal, but compliance is easy and my metabolism is still great. I feel lucky to have found this. Anyone that is interested should give it a shot for a week.

    At this point, I cannot see myself going away from this method of eating...ever.
    March 9, 2009 - May 1, 2010 - LeanGains - lost 69 lbs, and 18% of my bodyfat.

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  13. #5113
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    Anyone who isn't a beginner lifter, doing intermittent fasting? What can one gain from doing it? I heard growth hormone is stimulated some when fasting as a survival mechanism. Also isn't muscle tissue catabolized when fasting? Didn't read the posts yet but subscribed. Anyone want to fill me in?
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  14. #5114
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    Originally Posted by ss4vegeta1 View Post
    Anyone who isn't a beginner lifter, doing intermittent fasting? What can one gain from doing it? I heard growth hormone is stimulated some when fasting as a survival mechanism. Also isn't muscle tissue catabolized when fasting? Didn't read the posts yet but subscribed. Anyone want to fill me in?
    Read the thread.

  15. #5115
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    I have a quick question. I've been doing quite a bit of reading throughout the thread and it really does seem quite simple, just a quick Q:

    - When considering how to split up meals during the non-fasted or the 8 hour feeding period, someone mentioned you can have as little as one meal and as many as 17, as an exageration, but I understood the point. However, having as little as 1 meal during the 8 hour phase is a bit strange, isn't it? For example, if you have only one really massive meal i.e. 2500calories which fulfills your daily calorie requirements, this will be eaten in less than 8 hours. That means that you're not fasted for only 16 hours but actually more.

    For this to be properly effective, is it correct to think that a minimum of two meals is required during the feeding stage, and there is no max?

    Unless this ONE meal during the feed is being eaten EXTREMELY slowly over the time period of 8 hours :P?

    This has been a FANTASTIC thread and I'm extremely keen to try it.

    Thanks guys.

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    That seems to be the case. Good job logicing up the correct answer!
    Last edited by Kaner; 09-29-2009 at 03:35 PM.

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    If you only ate one meal, it would be longer than a 16 hour fast

    If you eat more meals rather than fewer it doesn't really make any difference if you take into account the speed of digestion.

    Best not to overanalyse - that is one of the cornerstones of this approach. Personally, I always have a big meal around lunch (post WO) and in the evening with the family. The rest of the time I snack when I feel like it and keep a tally of calories consumed. That's it.

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    hey guys. started my "bulk" this week. how many of you are sucessfully gaining/have gained muscle mass IF'ing? i know IF is great for cutting, just curious who has used it to bulk. i have also decided to include one 24 hour fast per week on my off day. there have been some people that have noticed excellent fat loss when doing an extended fast. also on some days when i work out later in the evening i cant/choose not too consume 3000 calories in the 3-4 hours between bed. i love IF...but consuming that amount of calories in that short amount of time before bed just doesnt seem right to me. in those cases i just have a whey shake upon waking the next morning and another one a few hours later. im getting my BF% tested next week at my schools lab and im going to experiment with my first bulk in over a year using IF and intense lifting/cardio regimine!
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    Originally Posted by Ted Nugent View Post
    hey guys. started my "bulk" this week. how many of you are sucessfully gaining/have gained muscle mass IF'ing? i know IF is great for cutting, just curious who has used it to bulk. i have also decided to include one 24 hour fast per week on my off day. there have been some people that have noticed excellent fat loss when doing an extended fast. also on some days when i work out later in the evening i cant/choose not too consume 3000 calories in the 3-4 hours between bed. i love IF...but consuming that amount of calories in that short amount of time before bed just doesnt seem right to me. in those cases i just have a whey shake upon waking the next morning and another one a few hours later. im getting my BF% tested next week at my schools lab and im going to experiment with my first bulk in over a year using IF and intense lifting/cardio regimine!
    I use IF for bulking and yes I have seen gains.
    As far as late workouts and consumption, you can either do what you proposed or have something preWO (unless your non-fasted workouts don't work for you). I usually opt for the latter rather than having something in the morning but it is all preference.
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    Originally Posted by determined4000 View Post
    I use IF for bulking and yes I have seen gains.
    As far as late workouts and consumption, you can either do what you proposed or have something preWO (unless your non-fasted workouts don't work for you). I usually opt for the latter rather than having something in the morning but it is all preference.
    yeah i really dont like non-fasted workouts at all. however i have experimented with sipping whey or BCAA during the day and did not have any problems with my workout. i think its just having carbs pre-workout just makes me sluggish and tired. my training program has a 2 on and 1 off system where its 2 days of all out intense lifting with a session of HIIT and session of moderate intensity intervals. for these two days im seriously considering drinking whey/bcaa during the day and then eating the bulk of my calories post-workout. i know this technically isnt IF but i feel that since im going to be causing quite a bit of muscular damage on my body through the very intense training i should be giving it the maximum amount of protein and nutrients to help recovery. IF has worked great for me on a cut and a very slowww recomp...but for this new training program which is very intense i just have a feeling i should constantly be providing nutrients since my body is going to be sucking them up too repair the damage. i will still be able to have the benefits of "fasted" training (energy+focus) while still being able to eat most of my calories post workout. due to the increased demands and needs of my body i just cant imagine the consumed food lasting overnight and half of the next day...sorry for the novel lol
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    hey nugent, what are your macros for your bulk? I to have recently started bulking with the IF approach and am having a hard time deciding what macro split is best. So far I have been macro/calorie cycling using 350cho/200p/60f on leg and chest days, 250cho/250/pro/75f on back, shoulders, arms, and 150cho/250pro/90f on off days. I can't wait for martin to come out with the book in order to shed some light on what split is best!
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    Originally Posted by Kaner View Post
    That's seems to be the case. Good job logicing up the correct answer!
    Lol Thanks. Just didn't make sense at first but as had been said already, I think it's better not to over-analyse (I'n very guilty of this).

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    Originally Posted by Fit4Life22 View Post
    hey nugent, what are your macros for your bulk? I to have recently started bulking with the IF approach and am having a hard time deciding what macro split is best. So far I have been macro/calorie cycling using 350cho/200p/60f on leg and chest days, 250cho/250/pro/75f on back, shoulders, arms, and 150cho/250pro/90f on off days. I can't wait for martin to come out with the book in order to shed some light on what split is best!
    it sounds like you got it down good man! i have never done a proper bulk before so im experimenting/starting with 2500-3000 cals, with a minimum of 200g of protein and around 75-100g of fat and the rest coming from carbs. the only reason im seriously considering sipping a whey shake during the day is that im doing intense weights 4/7 days and a mix of HIIT and moderate cardio 5/7 days. i think its in my best interest to give my body a continuous supply of nutrients while im shocking it with this "radical" new type of training my body isnt quite used to yet. and after seeing some convicing evidence that IF may not be ideal for my training/schedule i decided to modify it.
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    Originally Posted by Fit4Life22 View Post
    hey nugent, what are your macros for your bulk? I to have recently started bulking with the IF approach and am having a hard time deciding what macro split is best. So far I have been macro/calorie cycling using 350cho/200p/60f on leg and chest days, 250cho/250/pro/75f on back, shoulders, arms, and 150cho/250pro/90f on off days. I can't wait for martin to come out with the book in order to shed some light on what split is best!
    My philosphy with macros after meeting min's is to do what works best. However, I don't see the point in such large fluctuations. Your fat intake is probably too low on leg days, but obviously you are going low to get in a lot more carbs. But there is no way you are using an extra 200g of carbs on leg days than off days. It may seem like that but its not even close. Conversly, I don't see the need to drop carbs so low on off days, and increasing protein compared to lifting days. To me it would make sense to hold protein constant all days (250), maintain fat at 80-90g (given your weight), and then increase carbs by 50-75 or so on leg days (compared to upper days) and decrease slightly on off days.
    My main reason being, with IF, you are burning/using yesterday's intake for energy for workouts. Going too low the previous day just doesn't make sense IMO. Or if you have an off day after a leg day, you don't need 350g carbs to replace what you burned and now you aren't working out for 48 hours.

    Note: Not hating, just trying to understand rationale.
    Last edited by determined4000; 09-29-2009 at 04:37 PM.
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    Thanks for the tips man. I know you're not hating. I was looking for contsructive criticism! So, I'll keep my cho intake at 250 on regular days, and up it to about 300-315 on brutal days such as legs. On off days, I would rather keep my cho intake some what low due to the inactivity. I will bump my off day cho intake to 175 (which is about 1 gram per lb.of bw)rather than 150. How does that sound?
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    Originally Posted by Fit4Life22 View Post
    Thanks for the tips man. I know you're not hating. I was looking for contsructive criticism! So, I'll keep my cho intake at 250 on regular days, and up it to about 300-315 on brutal days such as legs. On off days, I would rather keep my cho intake some what low due to the inactivity. I will bump my off day cho intake to 175 (which is about 1 gram per lb.of bw)rather than 150. How does that sound?
    yeah sounds good
    Just curious- are your workouts fasted? Fasting window vs eating window times? time of Workout?
    How many reps and sets per workout?
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    Yes my workouts are fasted with the exception of purple wraath. I absolutely love fasted state workouts now. My routine consists of Max-OT training style. Anywhere between 5-8 reps max/6-10 sets. Workouts do not last longer than an hour at most. Workouts are generally around 5pm depending on if I have a client or not. So alot of the times I will fast for 17-18hrs and feast for 6.
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    Do you guys find that you sometimes calorie cycle inadvertently on off days. I just find I am not as hungry if I don't workout and I end up eating less.
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by Fit4Life22 View Post
    Yes my workouts are fasted with the exception of purple wraath. I absolutely love fasted state workouts now. My routine consists of Max-OT training style. Anywhere between 5-8 reps max/6-10 sets. Workouts do not last longer than an hour at most. Workouts are generally around 5pm depending on if I have a client or not. So alot of the times I will fast for 17-18hrs and feast for 6.
    When I get the chance to workout in the morning the only thing that is in my system is Intrabolic with some creatine and some juice for carbs (2 to 1 ratio from carbs to protein). That is it and I love it. I don't feel good eating a big breakfast and then going to workout.

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    Ok I've been on this for about almost 2 weeks and really only lost about 1.5lbs of this morning, being doing HIIT I have moderate carb intakes with basically 60 grams of oats pre-WO and 40 grams waximaize post WO. I really expected a more dramatic drop but I guess a drop is better than nothing. Almost seems the same as my regular cut.

    I'm so torned between cutting my carbs further, either pre or post workout meals but you either need one for the energy before training or for recovery after training, so which one to cut I guess would be my question.

    I might just have to try the fasted workouts and rely on my BCAA purple wrath drink with caffeine and just take in my post workout carbs...!?!?!?

    What do you guys think?
    Last edited by ski23man; 10-02-2009 at 07:06 AM.
    March 3rd--------------210lbs.
    March 12th------------204lbs.
    April 3rd----------------200lbs.
    April 24th--------------198lbs.
    May 1st----------------194lbs.
    May 15th--------------191lbs.
    June 6th---------------191lbs. (steady)
    July 18th---------------190lbs.
    Sept 12th--------------189lbs.
    Nov 18th---------------200lbs. (clean bulk)
    Jan 16th----------------188lbs.
    Feb 6th-----------------184lbs.
    Mar 6th-----------------181lbs.

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