Keeping the fat off buring bulk

[bigpump23]

What do you guys use, Aside from sesathin and fish oil, ya know "problems" what else can you guys use. I'm on satur8 so I don't want to take anything that competes with it so what do you guys sugges, I'll still be doing cardio about 4 times a week and I'm taking prolab easy cuts( just l-carnitine, chrimoum and linoleic acid basically)

[armz_ha]

3.4 grams of cla per day...

[Sixpack]

Cardio for sure bro 5x at least per week, just make sure to make up for it in cals etc, also doing interval workouts and switching up cardio is important> For me I do it everyday its just something I do, other then that fish oil, ECY or Scorch lol does wonders but if u want to stay away from thermos cardio is key

[armz_ha]

Cardio for sure bro 5x at least per week, just make sure to make up for it in cals etc, also doing interval workouts and switching up cardio is important> For me I do it everyday its just something I do, other then that fish oil, ECY or Scorch lol does wonders but if u want to stay away from thermos cardio is key

I am 2 lazy to do cardio, I'd rather eat cleaner...

[CF10]

Give r-ala a shot. It'll help to keep insulin levels steady.

[Rippd]

What do you guys use, Aside from sesathin and fish oil, ya know "problems" what else can you guys use. I'm on satur8 so I don't want to take anything that competes with it so what do you guys sugges, I'll still be doing cardio about 4 times a week and I'm taking prolab easy cuts( just l-carnitine, chrimoum and linoleic acid basically)

4x per week cardio while you are bulking is a bit much. just control your calories.

[bigpump23]

4x per week cardio while you are bulking is a bit much. just control your calories.

we will soon find out, I want to maximize my bulk, I don't just want to conume everything and have to go through the whole cut up process again, if I can stay relatively lean during my 8-10 week bulk and only do a short 3-4 week cut to get ready for summer, I'll be happy


Also I'll carb-cycle yes carb cycle on a bulk, going every other day with higher then usual carbs, we'll see

[KCPreki11]

I don't.

[Smokinghawk]

I do a DNP weekend at fairly high dose for 2-3 days each month. It knocks off about 3 pounds of pure fat, no muscle loss, and then I keep going with my bulking. And at only 2-3 days, it's not so horribly hot that it's insufferable.

[bigpump23]

I do a DNP weekend at fairly high dose for 2-3 days each month. It knocks off about 3 pounds of pure fat, no muscle loss, and then I keep going with my bulking. And at only 2-3 days, it's not so horribly hot that it's insufferable.

DNP?

[JustBrowsin]

I do a DNP weekend at fairly high dose for 2-3 days each month. It knocks off about 3 pounds of pure fat, no muscle loss, and then I keep going with my bulking. And at only 2-3 days, it's not so horribly hot that it's insufferable.

i'm scared ****less of DNP right now, but that sounds like a great idea.

[Mantra]

DNP?

bump what is it?

[Sixpack]

I would not suggest DNP

[meathead198]

3.4 grams of cla per day...

Try 15-20g.

DNP=
Di-
Nitro-
Phenol

Hitler fed it to the Jews to keep them warm.

Its a crazy thermogenic, 5-6lbs fatloss a week no problem.

The downside?

It's a poison.

The sides:

You overdose and you die! Also, the lethargy is terrible, and it gives a bloat.

My advice is nicotine:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showt...light=nicotine

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=356810

[dito]

I have heard Nicotine does have great body comp effects. I have never tried it though. Ebay has nic gum for cheap.

[Smokinghawk]

i'm scared ****less of DNP right now, but that sounds like a great idea.

So was I before I first tried it. I'd heard all the myths:

1) it cooks your body from the inside out. FALSE. There is a *slight* increase in SURFACE temperature that makes you feel very hot. I work in a medical setting where my temprature is taken regularly. No problems.

2) It causes cancer. FALSE (in fact, DNP *fights* tumors and cancers--medical sources on request)

3) You die from it very easily. FALSE. The fatal amount is about 3-4 times higher than the MAX dose used, and most people use about half of the max dose anyway. Deaths are more likely when it's mixed with drug abuse/alcohol.

[meathead198]

So was I before I first tried it. I'd heard all the myths:

1) it cooks your body from the inside out. FALSE. There is a *slight* increase in SURFACE temperature that makes you feel very hot. I work in a medical setting where my temprature is taken regularly. No problems.

2) It causes cancer. FALSE (in fact, DNP *fights* tumors and cancers--medical sources on request)

3) You die from it very easily. FALSE. The fatal amount is about 3-4 times higher than the MAX dose used, and most people use about half of the max dose anyway. Deaths are more likely when it's mixed with drug abuse/alcohol.

Any chance you could post some anti-carcinogen studies please?

What dosage are you recommending? 200mg a day is a good start. The highest I have ever seen a smart person go is 400.

[bigpump23]

i think i'll stay away

[youngvet1]

For me one cardio session per week during a bulk would not really allow me to bulk much and that is with excessive calories.

Everyone is different.

As for those who say to take r-ala i thought r-ala was not tiussue specific another wards it can channel to fat cells as well as muscle.

[Smokinghawk]

Any chance you could post some anti-carcinogen studies please?

What dosage are you recommending? 200mg a day is a good start. The highest I have ever seen a smart person go is 400.

I'll post them right here when I get home.

200 is a little low, but it works if you have a job where you can't get too warm or if you're adding it tio a good diet and exercise. I like to go about 400. I've done 800 but it KICKED me hard, so I dropped it down instantly and I now regard 600 as a "high dose." Others have written about doing a gram a day/3-4 days for an "inferno" effect, which is what I call the "max dose" above, but I don't suggest that. Fatal doses are about 3.5 grams for normal males.

[sawastea]

Please read the attachment on DNP. Everything you need to know is included. I would HIGHLY advise to stay away from it, however, it is something people should be aware of.

[Smokinghawk]

DNP is Ames negative, and does not promote tumors. See for yourself at http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/dinitrop.html reports on health risks. While there have not been human studies, animal studies found no cancers caused by DNP administration. It is considered a toxin because it causes nausea, sweating, and weight loss.

http://www.cyberiron.com/drugs/dinitrophenol.html reports on health risks from external exposure. In other words, don’t get it in your eyes, or on your skin if you’re allergic. Pretty elementary stuff.

http://www.ebec2000.com/abstracts/056.htm This animal study documents a 64% increase in metabolism. "These findings confirm that DNP effectively increases metabolic rate..." Duh.

http://www.zymed.com/pdf/04-xxxx/04-8300.pdf A PDF file about an antidote to DNP.

http://www.boehringer-ingelheim.es/w...lesa/cap13.htm finds that DNP did not activate liver enzymes (MAT) associated with liver damage

“Comparative study of toxicity of 4-nitrophenol and 2,4-dinitrophenol in newborn and young rats.” Koizumi M, Yamamoto Y, Ito Y, Takano M, Enami T, Kamata E, Hasegawa R. Division of Risk Assessment, National Institute of Health Sciences, 1-18-1 Kamiyoga, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 158-8501, Japan. This study found that DNP can induce death in overdosed amounts, but that up to that point no toxicity was evident, nor were there any abnormalities in physical development.

“Phenol toxicity and conjugation in human colonic epithelial cells.” Pedersen G, Brynskov J, Saermark T. Dept of Medical Gastroenterology, Herlev University Hospital, Copenhagen, Denmark.. This study found that DNP has a toxic effect on cells of the colon, with “toxic” defined in two ways: first, it interfered with metabolism (this we know—it’s the intended effect of DNP users!) and second, it interfered with bowel inflammation (not a health risk. This is caused by osmotic effect, with the worst result being softened stools and gas).

“Mechanisms of bacterial resistance to macrolide antibiotics.” Nakajima Y. Division of Microbiology, Hokkaido College of Pharmacy, 7-1 Katsuraoka-cho, Otaru, Hokkaido 047-0264, Japan. This study found that antibiotic-resistant bacteria could be thwarted with DNP. “the extent of the accumulated drug in a resistant cell increases as much as that in a susceptible cell in the presence of an uncoupling agent such as…2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP).”

“Absence of Crabtree effect in human melanoma cells adapted to growth at low pH: reversal by respiratory inhibitors.” Burd R, Wachsberger PR, Biaglow JE, Wahl ML, Lee I, Leeper DB. Departments of Radiation Oncology, Kimmel Cancer Center, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107, USA. Check this out—DNP actually helps make melanoma tumors easier to attack by increasing ratio of oxygen consumption to lactic acid production, while glycolysis remains the same. “Therefore, tumor acute acidification and oxygenation can be achieved by exposure…”


“New insights in the cellular processing of platinum antitumor compounds, using fluorophore-labeled platinum complexes and digital fluorescence microscopy.”
Molenaar C, Teuben JM, Heetebrij RJ, Tanke HJ, Reedijk J. Department of Molecular Cell Biology, Leiden University Medical Centre, The Netherlands. DNP is used as a control in tests of antitumor cells because it does NOT bind to cell DNA, nor promote tumors, yet its staining abilities enable tracking of the uptake of antitumor drugs.

Specific inhibition of breast cancer cells by antisense poly-DNP-oligoribonucleotides and targeted apoptosis.” Ru K, Taub ML, Wang JH. Department of Biochemistry, State University of New York, Buffalo 14260-3000, USA Are you ready for this? DNP actually INHIBITS (!!!) breast cancers! Yes, not only does it NOT promote cancers, it’s being recognized as a cancer-fighter/blocker. “Two membrane-permeable and RNase-resistant antisense poly-2'-O-(2,4-dinitrophenyl)-oligoribonucleotides (poly-DNP-RNAs) have been synthesized as inhibitors of human breast cancer…fluorescence assay indicates that the targeted antisense inhibition by poly-DNP-RNAs leads to apoptosis of SK-Br-3 cells but does not affect nontumorigenic MCF-10A cells. The control poly-DNP-RNAs with random or sense nucleotide sequence are completely inactive.” Plain English? DNP is being synthesized as an anti-cancer compound, because tests show that it blocks mutagens but does NOT affect non-mutagenic (healthy) cells, and has no RNA effects on them.

“Heat shock protein induction by certain chemical stressors is correlated with their cytotoxicity, lipophilicity and protein-denaturing capacity.” Neuhaus-Steinmetz U, Rensing L. Institute of Cell Biology, Biochemistry and Biotechnology, NW II University of Bremen, Germany. The thermic effect of DNP induces protein synthesis (heat shock protein, or HSP, synthesis). In fact, it’s quite GOOD at it: “ASA, DNP and CCCP induced HSP at lower concentrations than substances with a similar lipophilicity…”

“Comparative effects of the metabolic inhibitors 2,4-dinitrophenol and iodoacetate on mouse neuroblastoma cells in vitro.” Andres MI, Repetto G, Sanz P, Repetto M.
National Institute of Toxicology, Seville, Spain. In this study, DNP’s observed effect was an increase in metabolism (duh!), while the other toxins compared to it had harmful in vitro effects but no increase in metabolism.

“Inhibition of uncoupled respiration in tumor cells. A possible role of mitochondrial Ca2+ efflux.” Gabai VL.Medical Radiology Research Center, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Obninsk. DNP not only does not cause tumors, but it inhibited their respiration by 20-25% compared to controls.

“Amsacrine-induced lesions in DNA and their modulation by novobiocin and 2,4-dinitrophenol.” Shibuya ML, Buddenbaum WE, Don AL, Utsumi H, Suciu D, Kosaka T, Elkind MM. Department of Radiology and Radiation Biology, Colorado State University, Fort Collins 80523. In this study, researchers found that DNP abrogates—or disrupts—cytotoxicity in hamsters (using cancerous cells). They expected to find that DNP would interfere with anticancer treatments, but instead found that DNP increased their effects. They state, though, that they cannot claim a proven effect of DNP on anticancer treatments yet, although they do agree that treatment with DNP actually enhanced the effects of the DNA regenerative therapy of anticancer chemotherapy.

“Induction of endonucleolytic DNA cleavage in human acute myelogenous leukemia cells by etoposide, camptothecin, and other cytotoxic anticancer drugs: a cautionary note.” Kaufmann SH. Oncology Center, Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Maryland 21205. The authors warn that certain anti-leukemia drugs resulted in “extensive DNA degradation.” BUT(good ol’ DNP to the rescue!), “Preincubation with dinitrophenol abolished the effect…”

“[Dependence of the nature of the action of metabolic inhibitors on ribo****l RNA synthesis in Ehrlich ascites carcinoma cells on cell integrity]” [Article in Russian] Akhlynina TV, Buzhurina IM, Panov MA, Rozovskaia IA, Chernaia NG. DNP actually inhibits the synthesis of RNA in carcinoma cells. In other words, it helps cancerous cells commit suicide. “Ribo****l RNA (rRNA) synthesis in the intact Ehrlich ascite carcinoma cells is selectively inhibited by papaverin (ED50 = 0.01 mM), 2,4-dinitrophenol (DPN; ED50 = 5 microM), and actinomycin D (ED50 = 0.1 microgram/ml).”

“Autocatabolism of surface macromolecules shed by human melanoma cells.”
Bystryn JC, Perlstein J. Cancer Res 1982 Jun;42(6):2232-7. This study finds that DNP helps
melanoma cells die (autocatabolize) while other cells are unaffected.

http://www.geocities.com/byggdegstor/dnpforside - tons of research, including medical studies. Excerpts:

DNP does not cause liver damage: "Their analyses demonstrate, beyond a doubt, that the liver does not suffer any damage in the course of dinitro treatment." (Biological Study of Dinitro Drugs in Humans By Dr. Jacques Bell. Bell, Jacques. 1939. Etude biologique des produits dinitres chez l'homme. Medecine. 19:749-54. Translation © 1996 Robert Ames)

Also: "Experimental studies on animals do not show toxic effects of dinitrophenol on the kidney. Anatomical-pathological examinations of animals, even those which died from a massive dose of dinitrophenol, do not reveal any important anatomical changes, except a small degree of cytolysis. Clinical documents are not abundant, but, on the whole, do not seem to demonstrate that dinitrophenol is toxic for the kidneys."

“Dinitrophenol has almost no action on the blood cholesterol. (Grant and Schube).”

"it doesn't seem that dinitrophenol at usual clinical doses is likely to harm the kidneys."

"Dinitrophenol is remarkable for its absence of effect on the cardio-vascular system...dinitrophenol is absolutely devoid of toxicity for the heart."

“Dinitrophenol does not attack cell tissue albumin and does not determine the fat loss to the expense of the muscles, contrary to thyroxine.”

“dinitrophenol offers this precious advantage that the cessation of its use at the slightest appearance of signs indicating an imminence of intoxication results immediately in the arrest of those symptoms." (Professor Pouchet).”


Interestingly, one medical theory on a health ADVANTAGE of DNP is that the slight increase in thermogenic temperature simulates the fever a body induces during a viral attack. The body increases itsheat to protect organs but kill viruses, and some theorize that DNP can do the same thing, thus killing viruses in the body. In this mechanism, DNP may have an immune-enhancing effect.

[Smokinghawk]

DNP for Dummies
HOW TO NOT **** UP DNP:
Since some guys have been playing around and disrespecting DNP and then griping to the forums
about the painful results, we need to make this VERY specific and VERY correct so that people
won't keep jumping for DNP out of curiosity, or without the willpower they need to operate this
responsibly. So here are my experienced guidelines to using it the RIGHT way.

FIRST GUIDLINE: Dosing. Use ONLY 200mg a day for the first four days. I don't care that you
don't "feel" anything yet and you wanna bump it up. DNP accumulates in the body, and not
"feeling" something means NOTHING. It's there, and it's working (the effect on metabolism
begins within two hours of the first dose!). Four days will let you test your tolerance: do you have
an allergy? Does it give you a rash? etc.

Only after those four days do you bump it up, by 200mg a day. The average dose is 400-600/
day, and more than that gets a little severe. A full gram is the highest dose I've heard
anyone use. I've used that much, and it's hell. I like to stay around 600 a day, which is HOT but
safe and effective. Take caps even hours apart through the day, ending about 4-5 PM.
SECOND GUIDLINE...How to eat on DNP. This is purely personal experience, because some guys like to carb-deplete *before* using DNP (then eat carbs as usual while on), and other guys like a low-carb approach throughout. Both are fine. Using DNP is the only time that fructose is a
desireable cutting carb, because it keeps the liver replentished. That reduces lethargy and spares
muscle.

Be aware that eating high-carb foods WILL increase the heat sensation within an hour, and last
about 2 hours. That means don't eat carbs before bed unless you want those night sweats to be
even WORSE. Personally, I ate whatever the hell I wanted! IHOP, chinese, fajitas...Yes, I burned hot, but I still lost 1.5 pounds every 2 days. Keep protein HIGH for muscles' sake, and try it yourself.

Foods I suggest including:
Blueberry yogurt. Blueberries are excellent antioxidants, and yogurt cultures help with digestive
function, gas, and stool consistency (disgustingly soft stools are common during DNP).
Oregano-based foods. Oregano is perhaps one of the most potent antioxidants around, and one
spoonful counts as a vegetable serving. Pineapple - I've found that pineapple helps alleviate those "DNP Blues". The fructose helps, and pineapple enzymes aid in protein digestion.
V8 - one 12-ounce can supplies six servings of veggies, concentrated as an excellent source of
antioxidants, lycopene, and recovery of electrolytes.
Oatmeal - high-fiber foods are necessary. You'll find out why around, oh, day 5 or so. Trust me.

THIRD GUIDELINE...Supplements and DNP. I suggest:
ECA - DNP is not a stimulant. To keep energy high and aid in fat loss, use an ECA. Some advisors suggest that regular ephedrine is preferable to norephedrine because of the more direct "hit" of energy.
Prohormones - perfectly fine on DNP. I used 1-AD just to help keep strength and muscle up, and
it worked fine. No problems here. You won't GROW muscle on DNP, but it'll help with strength
and protection.
Obvious stuff - multivitamin, ZMA, etc.
Biotest PowerDrive - No, I'm not pimping Biotest. But PowerDrive is an excellent pre-workout
mixture that actually works. Plus it's low-carb (only 15 calories total), so it won't cause carb-heat
in the middle of your workout.

Antioxidants - I'm giving my own personal list, and why I use them:
Alpha Lipoic Acid - aids in fat management and blood sugar, and an excellent antioxidant.
Grape seed extract
Syntrax Radox
Green Tea
Inositol - mood enhancement, antioxidant, and muscle support. 1 gram/3x day
Ellagic acid - protects cell DNA/RNA from damage by free radicals, and may even attack cancerous cells. 400mg/twice a day
Fruit antioxidants - ******************'s powder of high-potency natural fruit anti's. 1 gram, 2-3x
day.
Trimethylglyceine - antioxidant, helps move fat and blood lipids into the liver and out of the body. 500mg, 2-4x day.
Vitamins E and C

Supplements NOT to use:
Any medications that suppress energy. No allergy meds, antidepressants, muscle relaxers, or
beta blockers. DNP will have you low as it is; don't worsen your body's energy by taking
something that suppresses you further.
DRUGS - Sheesh, you'd think I wouldn't have to mention this, but two idiots in particular (on Elite Fitness) recently affirmed that some people still just don't get it. NO alcohol (not even
"moderate"), NO ecstasy, NO GHB, etc. If you don't have the willpower to forego these habits,
DNP is not for you.
Syntrax Swole - a personal discovery. I tried Swole while on DNP...once. Two hours of hell,
feeling inside-out.

FOURTH GUIDELINE...working out on DNP. Keep lifting short, 30-40 minutes. DNP works very well, causing your body to use 150% of the calories per action you'd normally use. That means DON'T try to repeat your usual workouts. Drop to moderate weights, 8-12 reps, not to failure, and with plenty of walking rest between sets. You are NOT going to grow muscle on DNP, so don't use your usual heavy routine. Since DNP can cause light-headedness and heat dizzyness, you have my permission to skip squats in favor of leg presses this time.

Cardio is a controversial one. My advice - do NOT do cardio on high doses of DNP (600mg or
more). It's dangerous and counterproductive. Below that amount, some cardio is fine, but keep it
to 20 minutes and not at full-gallop. Remember, DNP will drain water from your quickly, causing you to leech out minerals, vitamins, and salts. Don't overdo it.

During exercise, consume at least 1 liter of water per 30 minutes of work, whether you're thirsty
or not. DNP is evil in the way it blunts thirst, while at the same time doing the cruel trick of
bloating your body with water WHILE dehydrating you from water in your organs. MAKE yourself drink. Always folllow DNP exercise with antioxidants, carbs, and this is a good time to use your multivitamin.

Don't feel embarrassed about poor workouts. Just this morning I did a workout with a whopping
nine sets (wimp!) before calling it quits. Listen to your body, and let it tell you when enough's
enough; don't gauge workouts by what you *usually* can do otherwise.

Purely for information's sake. Posting any of this information is not an admission that I have ever used DNP; I refer to myself in the first person as a hypothetical narrator in an academic discourse...