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  1. #1
    8===D~~( o Y o ) Prairie Doggin_'s Avatar
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    Resveratrol, Testosterone, and Hair Loss

    There have been a couple of interesting threads on Ergopharm's 6-Oxo Extreme and 11-Oxo. In these threads the topic of Resveratrol has come up and a few discussions have taken place. I originally became interested in it for its potential for life extension via the SIRT-1 gene as well as its overall health benefits (the French Paradox).

    However, Ergopharm incorporated it into its products mainly for its actions as an estrogen receptor antagonist which thereby increases testosterone. Very interesting, but this is where I became hesitant. I'm a man in my mid twenties and have been watching the hairline recede slowly for a few years. Thus, I try to avoid anything hormone related.

    A quick search on resveratrol + hairloss strangely showed results using it for the prevention of hairloss via the following rationalization: "Resveratrol, from grape skins, is a lipase inhibitor. By decreasing the body's ability to absorb fat through the intestine walls, it reduces the total fat and calorie content of a person's diet." (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=757473) So the theory there is that less fat/calories will essentially reduce cholesterol which is the start for the synthesis of testosterone and then DHT via 5-alpha reductase (http://www.lib.mcg.edu/edu/eshuphysi...8img/page8.jpg)
    But based on Ergopharm's studies it appears that the estrogen receptor antagonist actions of resveratrol far outweigh the disruption in the testosterone synthesis pathway via reduction in dietary cholesterol.

    So while all this is interesting in and of itself, I'm trying to determine the cost/benefits of resveratrol and my questions are these:

    How effective are the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors out there? Is saw palmetto the best? Has anyone had much success slowing hair loss with these?

    Given the state of these inhibitors, how would they effectively stand up against largely elevated testosterone levels as shown in Ergopharms Resvertrol studies?

    Any thoughts, comments, links, opinions, or questions on these and related topics would be much appreciated. Pat, I'm hoping you would be so kind as to chime in here if possible. Thanks.
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    Busy Dude Dr.Dave1's Avatar
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    I'm not sure on reservatrol BUT I have heard shampoo with 2% ketoconazole (nizoral for example) can help slow androgenic alopecia . . . I did a quick search and found articles supporting this, below are some examples.

    1: Med Hypotheses. 2004;62(1):112-5. Links
    Ketocazole as an adjunct to finasteride in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in men.
    Hugo Perez

    Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) binding to androgen receptors (AR) in hair follicles is commonly accepted as the first step leading to the miniaturizing of follicles associated with androgenetic alopecia (AGA). Testosterone is converted to DHT by the enzyme 5alpha-reductase. Finasateride a 5alpha-reducase inhibitor blocks the production of DHT and is currently used to treat AGA. The inhibition is not complete but a reduction of DHT systemically and in the scalp is accomplished. Ketoconazole has been clinically shown to be effective in the treatment of AGA. In this paper, evidence is presented to support the hypothesis that ketoconazole 2% shampoo has a local disruption of the DHT pathway. It is proposed that using ketoconazole 2% shampoo as an adjunct to finasteride treatment could lead to a more complete inhibition of DHT and thus better treat AGA.

    1: J Dermatol. 2005 Apr;32(4):243-7. Links
    Topical application of ketoconazole stimulates hair growth in C3H/HeN mice.
    Jiang J, Tsuboi R, Kojima Y, Ogawa H.

    Ketoconazole (KCZ) is an imidazole anti-fungal agent that is also effective in topical applications for treating seborrheic dermatitis and dandruff. Recently, topical use of 2% KCZ shampoo has been reported to have had a clinically therapeutic effect on androgenetic alopecia. The present study was conducted with the purpose of quantitatively examining the stimulatory effect of KCZ on hair growth in a mouse model. Coat hairs on the dorsal skin of seven week-old male C3H/HeN mice were gently clipped, and either 2% KCZ solution in 95% ethanol or a vehicle solution was topically applied once daily for three weeks. The clipped area was photographed, and the ratio of re-grown coat area was then calculated. The results demonstrated that 2% KCZ had a macroscopically significant stimulatory effect compared with the vehicle group (p<0.01, n=10). Repeated experiments showed similar effects, confirming the efficacy of KCZ as a hair growth stimulant. Although the therapeutic mechanism of topical KCZ for hair growth is unclear, our results suggest that topical applications of the substance are useful for treating seborrheic dermatitis accompanied by hair regression or male pattern hair loss.

    PMID: 15863844 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Disclaimer: While I have an M.D. the views I express are not to be taken as medical advice under any circumstances. Please check with your own doctor if you want medical advice as he/she has access to your info and can provide the most accurate advice.


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    Originally Posted by Prairie Doggin_ View Post
    How effective are the 5-alpha reductase inhibitors out there? Is saw palmetto the best?
    Unfortunately I do not currently have any evidence on file (as my computer is being repaired), but I can give you a small list of supplemental nutrients that are likely to assist in 5-alpha reductase inhibition.

    Indeed saw palmetto is a valuble addition, as it aquires the ability to suppress both 5-alpha reductase 1 and 2. Some other nutrients that have displayed clinical efficacy as 5-alpha reductase inhibitors include, polyphenols/proanthocyanidins, curcumin, GLA, EGCG, myristoleic acid, and alizarin.
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    8===D~~( o Y o ) Prairie Doggin_'s Avatar
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    Dr. Dave - I currently use Nizoral. I only have it at 1% concentration though. It seems 2% is OTC, but I guess my local drug store didn't stock it. I'll have to get it online. It's hard to tell if it, like anything else is working, because you never know how bad it could have been if you weren't taking it unless the product completely stops all loss which I've yet to experience. The evidence does look good, thanks for posting the studies.

    No Hype - Saw palmetto was the most popular one I've come across. I get lots of EGCGs too though I don't think I've come across any studies showing 5-alpha reductase inhibition (I haven't really look specifically for it either. I'll have to check it out.) I'll also take a look at the other things you mentioned as some of them are completely new to me. Thanks so much.
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  5. #5
    MARZIA PRINCES NIPPLES Eyayo's Avatar
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    i used hair genesis shampoo and conditioner with my phera-vol cycle and had no hair loss
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    Busy Dude Dr.Dave1's Avatar
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    another option is to go with rogaine . . . which is now avaialble OTC. This is definitely proven effective. It might be worth a try
    Disclaimer: While I have an M.D. the views I express are not to be taken as medical advice under any circumstances. Please check with your own doctor if you want medical advice as he/she has access to your info and can provide the most accurate advice.


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  7. #7
    Tao of Iron wild1poet2's Avatar
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    my understanding of resveratrol is its cardio vascular health benefits and the recent studies on life extension. I do recall reading that it is a very mild anti-estrogen. In fact i thought it acted as an agonist in some cases and an antagonist in others. So I'm not familiar with any studies that would cause concern over increasing T and conversion to DHT and then hair loss.

    I use Nizoral a couple times a week myself. It can't hurt.
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    8===D~~( o Y o ) Prairie Doggin_'s Avatar
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    Thanks for the response, wild1poet2. This is the thread that I originally was speaking about that contains studies and references alluding to very large increases in testosterone solely due to resveratrol. I haven't decided if I am going to throw it into my daily supplement list, but I will be adding some saw palmetto.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2857101&page=2
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    In the same vein as a lipase inhibitor, what about this new ALLI stuff...
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    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...gi?artid=28446

    Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound found in grapes and wine, is an agonist for the estrogen receptor

    I am a little confused. If resveratrol is a phytoestrogen, why is this in a test booster?
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    Tao of Iron wild1poet2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Prairie Doggin_ View Post
    Thanks for the response, wild1poet2. This is the thread that I originally was speaking about that contains studies and references alluding to very large increases in testosterone solely due to resveratrol. I haven't decided if I am going to throw it into my daily supplement list, but I will be adding some saw palmetto.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...2857101&page=2
    I think the studies have shown that it acts as an agonist in some tissue receptors and as an antagonist in other but in either case the effect is not significant. My son is actually doing some research on resveratrol this summer and we've been discussing it a bit. There has been a flurry of research activity especially following the Harvard study last fall. That was the one that showed a cardio protective effect on obese mice. No surprise. But it also showed that the res treated mice lived 30% longer than the control mice!! But I'm not hearing about test increases. I'll ask my son and see. It may just be that the commercial interest involves the cardio protective and life extension attributes so it's overshadowed the estrogen suppressing effects. BTW: I think I read that the lead scientist in the Harvard study now takes a resveratrol supp daily. Regardless, I started taking it after that study came out. I want to live 30% longer.... LOL
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    8===D~~( o Y o ) Prairie Doggin_'s Avatar
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    GPG - Good post. I am confused myself, and quite frankly that study is beyond my level of understanding on the topic. Maybe someone else can clarify.

    Poet - I also originally assumed that the supposed test increasing effects were overshadowed by its other properties. I plan on living much longer than 30% more than a typical human lifespan, but I may need that first 30% bridge to get there.
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    Good post and question PD... I'm looking forward to hearing Pat's response on this as well.
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    Very interesting stuff. I believe resveratrol acts on the estrogen receptor in the same fashion of tamoxifen in its selective agonism/antagonism. There are very effective prescription 5a-reductase inhibitors out there including ketoconazole, dutasteride, and finasteride.
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    first of all, the theory that inhibiting fat absorption would decrease cholesterol levels enough to afffect steroidogenesis is bogus. if decreasing cholesterol that dramatically was simply a matter of a change in diet then there would be no cholesterol medicines being sold. Dietary changes can drop cholesterol somewhat, but the effects are limited.

    Besides, if resveratrol were really that effective a lipase inhibitor i would be taking oily dumps every half an hour cuz i take about 2 grams of res a day.

    as far as whether a 5AR can still reduce DHT in the presence of larger than normal levels of circulating test, i dunno. i dunno the influence of substrate availability in regards to the efficiency of 5AR.

    I would not fool around with herbal 5AR's if you are serious about using one. I would try to get some propecia or proscar through your doctor or something
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    Originally Posted by Dr.Dave1 View Post
    I'm not sure on reservatrol BUT I have heard shampoo with 2% ketoconazole (nizoral for example) can help slow androgenic alopecia . . . I did a quick search and found articles supporting this, below are some examples.

    yeah i do recommend keto shampoo as an alternative
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    first of all, the theory that inhibiting fat absorption would decrease cholesterol levels enough to afffect steroidogenesis is bogus. if decreasing cholesterol that dramatically was simply a matter of a change in diet then there would be no cholesterol medicines being sold. Dietary changes can drop cholesterol somewhat, but the effects are limited.
    with regards to dietary measures and cholesterin: an interesting point is the impact of fibers on intestinal reabsorption of cholesterol. They can partially interfere with entherohepatic reabsorption and by that much more affect choelsterol metabolism than by teh (primary)inhibition of resorption of dietary cholesterol. the latter effect is minuscule, btw.
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    Originally Posted by GPG View Post
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...gi?artid=28446

    Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound found in grapes and wine, is an agonist for the estrogen receptor

    I am a little confused. If resveratrol is a phytoestrogen, why is this in a test booster?

    it is an agonist in some tissues and an antagonist in others

    even nolvadex is an agonist in the liver
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    Originally Posted by wild1poet2 View Post
    I think the studies have shown that it acts as an agonist in some tissue receptors and as an antagonist in other but in either case the effect is not significant. My son is actually doing some research on resveratrol this summer and we've been discussing it a bit. There has been a flurry of research activity especially following the Harvard study last fall. That was the one that showed a cardio protective effect on obese mice. No surprise. But it also showed that the res treated mice lived 30% longer than the control mice!! But I'm not hearing about test increases. I'll ask my son and see. It may just be that the commercial interest involves the cardio protective and life extension attributes so it's overshadowed the estrogen suppressing effects. BTW: I think I read that the lead scientist in the Harvard study now takes a resveratrol supp daily. Regardless, I started taking it after that study came out. I want to live 30% longer.... LOL


    there has only been one study on testosterone increases from resveartrol, i have posted the abstract here many times

    it was after i proved the theory with some in house blood spot testing with a few guys that i decided to throw it in an updated 6-oxo
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    Originally Posted by Dr.P View Post
    with regards to dietary measures and cholesterin: an interesting point is the impact of fibers on intestinal reabsorption of cholesterol. They can partially interfere with entherohepatic reabsorption and by that much more affect choelsterol metabolism than by teh (primary)inhibition of resorption of dietary cholesterol. the latter effect is minuscule, btw.
    yikes, so the net effect of fiber intake is to increase hepatic cholesterol levels?
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    I can say from experience that I have absolutely seen a complete cessation of hair loss while taking saw palmetto, although I can't be positive it is only attributable to the saw palmetto. About 8 or 9 years ago, I took a heavy cycle of prohormones for about 5 or 6 weeks if I remember correctly (high doses of andro, norando, and androstenediol stacked). During that cycle, I all of a sudden noticed my hair thinning. Shortly thereafter, I began taking 320 mg of saw palmetto per day, which I have taken ever since, and the hair loss has completely stopped since that time and I have never experienced it again. Whether the saw palmetto is responsible, I can't be positive, but I will continue to take it for the rest of my life.
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post

    I would not fool around with herbal 5AR's if you are serious about using one. I would try to get some propecia or proscar through your doctor or something
    Pat, thanks for the response. Would you not recommend a herbal 5AR due purely to inefficiency reasons and the fact that there are other, more powerful options out there or are there possible negative consequences from the herbal 5ARs? Thanks again.
    Last edited by Prairie Doggin_; 07-18-2007 at 04:15 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    yikes, so the net effect of fiber intake is to increase hepatic cholesterol levels?
    i have found the exact opposite to be true in my personal research.
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    Originally Posted by Prairie Doggin_ View Post
    There have been a couple of interesting threads on Ergopharm's 6-Oxo Extreme and 11-Oxo. In these threads the topic of Resveratrol has come up and a few discussions have taken place. I originally became interested in it for its potential for life extension via the SIRT-1 gene as well as its overall health benefits (the French Paradox).

    However, Ergopharm incorporated it into its products mainly for its actions as an estrogen receptor antagonist which thereby increases testosterone.
    There is a study or two on rats that took resv. and there testosterone increased, not humans. You can give rats diet pepsi and their test. will go up. Res. works like a photoestrogen. Its best used if your estrogen is low to still have the ben. effects of estogen because it binds to the estrogen receptor. It does plug the same receptor as estrogen, but it also has the same effect on the receptor as estrogen (in some cases). Res is a good antioxidant, not a good test booster, no better than soy (probably) for boosting test. Balding has to do more with DHT and less with estrogen.
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    Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    there has only been one study on testosterone increases from resveartrol, i have posted the abstract here many times

    it was after i proved the theory with some in house blood spot testing with a few guys that i decided to throw it in an updated 6-oxo
    I take resveratrol for the health benefits alone. The current interest in res by pharma companies and labs is pretty intense. Anything that might increase us babyboomer lifespans by 33% is noteworthy. And with a supp you can get the benefit without drinking 20 glasses of red wine.... although.... LOL

    this was the study I was thinking of... I don't profess to understand the nomenclature but I came away thinking that res can act as either an estrogen receptor agonist or antagonist depending on tissue situs..

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...=pubmed_docsum

    Excerpt: ".......We report that resveratrol exhibits E2 antagonist activity for ERalpha with select EREs. In contrast, resveratrol shows no E2 antagonist activity with ERbeta. These data indicate that resveratrol differentially affects the transcriptional activity of ERalpha and ERbeta in an ERE sequence-dependent manner."
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    hey come to think of it... I run 6 oxo frequently and have been taking resveratrol supps since last fall... so I guess I kinda invented this formulation..

    ???


    just kidding
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    Originally Posted by Prairie Doggin_ View Post
    Pat, thanks for the response. Would you not recommend a herbal 5AR due purely to inefficiency reasons and the fact that there are other, more powerful options out there or are there possible negative consequences from the herbal 5ARs? Thanks again.

    just because you are assured efficacy with the drugs. the herbals you just dunno
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    Originally Posted by wild1poet2 View Post
    Excerpt: ".......We report that resveratrol exhibits E2 antagonist activity for ERalpha with select EREs. In contrast, resveratrol shows no E2 antagonist activity with ERbeta. These data indicate that resveratrol differentially affects the transcriptional activity of ERalpha and ERbeta in an ERE sequence-dependent manner."

    so it is antagaonstic towards ER alpha. INteresting, cuz thats just the estrogen receptors found in the hypothalamus.

    You were saying chuck?.....


    Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2007 May 8;104(19):8173-7. Epub 2007 Apr 30. Links
    Nonclassical estrogen receptor alpha signaling mediates negative feedback in the female mouse reproductive axis.Glidewell-Kenney C, Hurley LA, Pfaff L, Weiss J, Levine JE, Jameson JL.
    Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, The Feinberg School of Medicine, Northwestern University, Chicago, IL 60611-3008, USA.

    Ovarian estrogen exerts both positive and negative feedback control over luteinizing hormone (LH) secretion during the ovulatory cycle. Estrogen receptor (ER) alpha but not ERbeta knockout mice lack estrogen feedback. Thus, estrogen feedback appears to be primarily mediated by ERalpha.
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