Do post-exercise carbs actually help?

[joecseko]

lol @ glutamine broscientist... If you aren't a burn victim, glutamine hasn't been shown to do anything really.

You're 18 and want to9 be 185@ 10%. Oh, God, let me reach so far as you. Shut up, idiot!

[joecseko]

Joe..I know this wasnt directed twords me. I just feel i should step in before you make yourself look even more ridiculous than you already do.
Glutamine is useless ..peptides , powder, pills... whatver.
You get plenty in your diet , your body can make it, and taking more does nothing for body composition what so ever. There are studies everywhere on this. I tried it years ago ..it didnt do sh*t. Studies now confirm my experince.
In fact ironically the only people that really believe in this supp...are usually the ones that read the BS you posted in muscle and fitness years ago.....and fell for the hype. Glutamine supplementation does not improve nitrogen balance or improve body composition. Check out the studies posted all over this site Joe.
Im sorry you have so adamantly and arrogantly defended this useless supplement.

28,000 university articles on this one page. Many of them confirm glutamine's role in nitrogen retention. Yes, glutamine can be synthesized by our body, being a nonessential amino. But, supplementation of glutamine and especially glutamine peptides has been proven beneficial.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...ogen+retention

[joecseko]

Joe I respect you opinion as well. Just a couple points. Just because glutamine plays a role in nitrogen retention...does not mean taking in more will improve nitrogen retention. In fact studies ive seen that indicate this were:
a- not on healthy people
b- at dosages that equate to 60g/day for 200lb male
c- in addition to regular diet
d- not all that dramatic anyway
e- prob would have occured with the simple addition of 60g protein/day

Just like protein plays a role in building muscle....with an adequate diet simply taking in more doesnt build more muscle.
Many people such as myself have found this supp uselss - petides ,l glutamine powders , l glutamine pills, whatever . Now very credible studies all over show no change whatsoever in performance or body compostion taking glutamine. Studies on our exact demographic. Now its one thing if you think it helps you and you take it - i disagree- but hey thats your call. Its another to try to make someone look like a fool for saying its useless when for the majority - thats exactly the case.
We can agree to disagree.

Agree to disagree on some points, yes. But many valid points supporting glutamine supplementation in athletes- specifically an increase in growth factors. Insulinlike growth factor is THE biochemical that causes the maturation of muscle fibers.

Before I get to the bulk of my point, I attacked the other idiot because he said it only works on burn victims. Really? Oh, and people undergoing surgery of the intestines, trauma patients of all kinds, people suffering from short bowel syndrome, certain transplant patients, as well as a plethora of medically accepted uses- all administered orally.

Hew made an idiotic statement, therefore was thrashed for it.

Now, the abstract doesn't reveal all of the results, but oral glutamine supplementation has shown to help athletes increase growth factors-- while some studies show promise that it may aid in the release of HGH.

http://www.nutritionjrnl.com/article...807-9/abstract

I will remain respectful t'ward you, sir, because you do make many valid points, and have obviously taken the time to educate yourself. But, we probably won't ever agree that glutamine supplementation is useless. So, with all due respect, I welcome any more comments from you. I can undoubtedly learn something, I'm sure. That's why people like you and I use these boards, right?

[veggie530]

With all this talk of insulin's role with leucine and post-workout protein synthesis and such...

What if you're diabetic? :-\

(i am).

[KelvinSwole]

Agree to disagree on some points, yes. But many valid points supporting glutamine supplementation in athletes- specifically an increase in growth factors. Insulinlike growth factor is THE biochemical that causes the maturation of muscle fibers.

No. IGF-1 causes hyperplasia, not maturation.

Glutamine supplements are for loltards. 80%+ is guzzled up by your intestines.

[pitbull14218]

bump, I caught up on some reading.... In my Bodybuilding Enclyclepedia from Muscle mag i believe, it states even the professional steriod bodybuilders take insulin due to increasing protein synthesis, so is this only post work out, or everyday when they also use insulin.

I still feel like I should be able to achieve lower body fat then what im currently at while still gaining muscle...

[Narcissisticly]

Do we have someone who speaks science to tell others (ignorant people like me) what the phuck I should be consuming PWO?

This thread is just incomprehensible.

[Narcissisticly]

Surely it would be better to consume leucine EAA BCAA other AA DURING training.

Whey, milk, fruit when no longer lifting.

[SoccerMuscle5]

Hell yes they help! You use energy to workout of course you want to replace that energy

[skamps]

How does this work if protein (which we all know contain amino acids) include BCAA's of which leucine is one of them. Is your study suggesting that we need MORE leucine post workout in order to trigger protein synthesis?

[MuscleTechPhil]

Post workout carbs may have other benefits including glycogen replenishment and insulin mediated creatine shuttling. You will need to eat carbohydrates during the day as part your macros, so it makes sense to eat them around the time of your workouts as well, in order to promote provision of energy substrate.


According to the ISSN review,

Post-exercise (within 30 minutes) consumption of CHO
at high dosages (8 – 10 g CHO/kg/day) has been shown
to stimulate muscle glycogen re-synthesis.

• Adding PRO (0.2 g – 0.5 g PRO/kg/day) to CHO at a
ratio of approximately 3: 1 (CHO: PRO) has been shown
to stimulate glycogen re-synthesis to a greater extent.

• Post-exercise ingestion (immediately after through 3
hours post) of amino acids, primarily EAAs, have been
shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle PRO synthesis.
The addition of CHO may increase PRO
synthesis even more, while pre-exercise consumption may
result in the best response of all.

• During prolonged resistance training, post-exercise consumption
of CHO + PRO supplements in varying
amounts have been shown to stimulate improvements in
strength and body composition when compared to control,
placebo, or CHO-only conditions.

• The addition of Cr (0.1 g Cr/kg/day) to a CHO + PRO
supplement may facilitate even greater adaptations to
resistance training.

You can read the entire article here:

http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-5-17.pdf

[Airborne42]

Wouldn't the absence of carbs pwo cause the protein ingested to be used to restore glycogen instead of building and repairing muscle tissues? I always thought that was the whole point of eating simple carbs pwo to restore glycogen levels right away so as not to have the protein broken down for glycogen restoral.

This^^^
I don't know where the OP is coming from. The main idea to use those simple carbs post is to replenish your glycogen storage. When your insulin spikes it shuttles those carbs you injest to your muscles as glycogen which eventually builds muscle. It's energy for your muscles that you lose from excercise...

[Airborne42]

How does this work if protein (which we all know contain amino acids) include BCAA's of which leucine is one of them. Is your study suggesting that we need MORE leucine post workout in order to trigger protein synthesis?

Technically no but it will help quite a bit.

[D3Baseball]

ITT everyone sweating the small stuff

and a serious overestimation of how often gluconeogenesis occurs

BTW, leucine is ketogenic, meaning it cannot convert to glucose under any conditions.

[NO HYPE]

BTW, leucine is ketogenic

Do you have any evidence to support that notion? Leucine is not ketogenic from my understanding.

[NO HYPE]

Supplemental leucine actually limits ketone body production, by stabilizing blood glucose levels during a glucose deficit, thus maintaining it's role in promoting gluconeogenesis --> Leucine donates it's amino group to pyruvate and converts it to alanine, thus providing hepatic substrate for glucose production, while simultaneously diminishing glucose oxidation via it's effects on the glucose-alanine cycle.

[D3Baseball]

Do you have any evidence to support that notion? Leucine is not ketogenic from my understanding.

this is what I was looking at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_amino_acid

perhaps this was too simplistic a definition

[NO HYPE]

perhaps this was too simplistic a definition

Cool thanks for the response. I don't trust Wiki in this instance.

It would appear to me that leucine is not strictly ketogenic, as it's ketogenic properties seem to be regulated by the glucose levels themselves, and as I've pointed out, leucine should actually limit ketone body production by it's downstream effects on alanine as a hepatic substrate for glucose production.

[D3Baseball]

Cool thanks for the response. I don't trust Wiki in this instance.

It would appear to me that leucine is not strictly ketogenic, as it's ketogenic properties seem to be regulated by the glucose levels themselves, and as I've pointed out, leucine should actually limit ketone body production by it's downstream effects on alanine as a hepatic substrate for glucose production.

I also had a look at this, but it was mostly over my head. http://www.biocarta.com/pathfiles/glucogenicPathway.asp

[NO HYPE]

I also had a look at this, but it was mostly over my head. http://www.biocarta.com/pathfiles/glucogenicPathway.asp

and there ya have it.....

'Several of the amino acids do not fall cleanly into one group or another, but are both ketogenic and glucogenic.'

[Trans_Isomer]

Models for producing glucose from AAs

Model 1) Normal conditions

The following does NOT happen for BCAAs (leucine/isoleucine/valine)

ingestion of protein -> stomach HCl + pepsinogen -> small intenstine
hydrolysis (FFAA/Di/Tri-peptides)-> portal vein -> liver
(transanimation/deanimation) amino group/keto-acid/NH4+ -> Keto-acid ->
glucose

Model 2) Fasted / low calorie / carbohydrate conditions

The following applies to the BCAAs (leucine/isoleucine/valine)

ingestion of protein -> stomach HCl + pepsinogen -> small intenstine
hydrolysis (FFAA/Di/Tri-peptides)-> portal vein -> skipping liver
trans/deanimation -> blood amino acid pool (plasma EAA profile matching
profile of protein ingested, non-match to non EAAs) -> Muscle uptake of
BCAAs -> deconstruction to carbon skeleton (keto-acid) and ammonia NH4+ ->
construction of alanine from BCAAs -> blood amino acid pool -> transport to
liver -> deconstruction to keto-acid -> glucose

Writing from my phone so hopefully transfers to the post well

[joecseko]

I have nothing at all to add. I'd just like to give you your props!

Models for producing glucose from AAs

Model 1) Normal conditions

The following does NOT happen for BCAAs (leucine/isoleucine/valine)

ingestion of protein -> stomach HCl + pepsinogen -> small intenstine
hydrolysis (FFAA/Di/Tri-peptides)-> portal vein -> liver
(transanimation/deanimation) amino group/keto-acid/NH4+ -> Keto-acid ->
glucose

Model 2) Fasted / low calorie / carbohydrate conditions

The following applies to the BCAAs (leucine/isoleucine/valine)

ingestion of protein -> stomach HCl + pepsinogen -> small intenstine
hydrolysis (FFAA/Di/Tri-peptides)-> portal vein -> skipping liver
trans/deanimation -> blood amino acid pool (plasma EAA profile matching
profile of protein ingested, non-match to non EAAs) -> Muscle uptake of
BCAAs -> deconstruction to carbon skeleton (keto-acid) and ammonia NH4+ ->
construction of alanine from BCAAs -> blood amino acid pool -> transport to
liver -> deconstruction to keto-acid -> glucose

Writing from my phone so hopefully transfers to the post well