Bodybuilding.com Information Motivation Supplementation
in:

    The World’s #1 Bodybuilding And Fitness Forum - Save Up To 50% Off Retail Prices In Our Bodybuilding.com Store!

Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 43
  1. #1
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline

    Can I do power cleans on shoulder day?(after deadlift day)

    Just wondering. I did back/chest yesterday

    3x8 bench supersetted with 3x8 bent over rows
    3x5 deadlift supersetted with 3x8 incline dbell
    3x12 cable crossovers

    I hit back a lot yesterday, and also did deadlifts on that day. Would it be fine to do power cleans the day after?

    Today I did this

    5x3 power cleans
    3x8 military press/push press(last reps)
    3x12 barbell shrugs
    3x12 arnold bench(shoulder workout)
    forearm work.

    Is it fine doing that? I went very light on power cleans(125 lbs) as I'm working on the form.
    Last edited by Richie_Awesome; 07-03-2007 at 03:19 PM.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    ♦ ɴɣϲ ϲrew ♦ Phenom01's Avatar
    Join Date: Jul 2005
    Location: Manhattan, New York
    Age: 25
    Posts: 5,333
    BodyPoints: 18058
    Rep Power: 181
    Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) Phenom01 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    Visit Phenom01's BodySpace
    Phenom01 is offline
    If it's very very light i don't it would be bad.
    Ron Paul for president!!
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by Phenom01 View Post
    If it's very very light i don't it would be bad.
    It was only light due to me not being all that familiar with the lift. What if it was heavy? 90% of max, would it still be ok or not?

    I figured it was good shoulder and trap development.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    power cleans would usually fit ON back day. usually youd do that as the first move then maybe deads right after that

    u generally do the explosive move first

    really, power cleans dont have much to do with shoulders unless u r also going to press it. power cleans r really a "pulling" exercise
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    power cleans would usually fit ON back day. usually youd do that as the first move then maybe deads right after that

    u generally do the explosive move first

    really, power cleans dont have much to do with shoulders unless u r also going to press it. power cleans r really a "pulling" exercise
    **** lol

    bb.com said Main Muscle Worked: Shoulders

    What are some good shoulder/trap exercises, then? I do military, shrugs, what else?

    I don't know how I can fit that into back day...seems like it would tire me out before the deadlifts and interfere with them.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  7. #7
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    okay..power cleans will hit the traps pretty hard..then again so do deadlifts

    but cleans arent really considered a pure 'delt" move

    thats why i always do traps on back day...because back stuff like deads hit the traps anyway

    ---

    delt moves

    any overhead press (military, behind neck, db, etc)
    various laterals. if it were me id do side laterals for sure...a basic delt workout to me is always a press then some side lateral variation, either dumbells or cables

    if I were doing deads and power cleans i wouldnt even bother with shrugs right now...no need


    I seriously dont think cleans will interfere with your deads at all. if anything they will get u fired up for them. I have done powercleans then deads more than once....i think they work good togther

    hint..there is soem good stuff on bb.com workouts....some sucky stuff also.

    caveat emptor
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  8. #8
    aka BBB BabyBodybuilder's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2007
    Location: Florida, United States
    Stats: 5'11", 223 lbs
    Posts: 3,188
    BodyPoints: 26309
    Rep Power: 118
    BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    Visit BabyBodybuilder's BodySpace
    BabyBodybuilder is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    **** lol

    bb.com said Main Muscle Worked: Shoulders

    What are some good shoulder/trap exercises, then? I do military, shrugs, what else?

    I don't know how I can fit that into back day...seems like it would tire me out before the deadlifts and interfere with them.
    Up right row
    The only time you'll ever see 'success' before 'work' is in the dictionary

    OGZERS, it's been 3 hours and 6 minutes since my last meal, teh biceptz are going catabawlick!!!!

    Bodybuilding is simple, not easy..
    Reply With Quote

  9. #9
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    okay..power cleans will hit the traps pretty hard..then again so do deadlifts

    but cleans arent really considered a pure 'delt" move

    thats why i always do traps on back day...because back stuff like deads hit the traps anyway

    ---

    delt moves

    any overhead press (military, behind neck, db, etc)
    various laterals. if it were me id do side laterals for sure...a basic delt workout to me is always a press then some side lateral variation, either dumbells or cables

    if I were doing deads and power cleans i wouldnt even bother with shrugs right now...no need


    I seriously dont think cleans will interfere with your deads at all. if anything they will get u fired up for them. I have done powercleans then deads more than once....i think they work good togther

    hint..there is soem good stuff on bb.com workouts....some sucky stuff also.

    caveat emptor

    Definitely a lot of wacky stuff, have you seen the woman's form on the upright rows? One arm is completely to the side lol.


    Originally Posted by BabyBodybuilder View Post
    Up right row
    I feel a lot of wrist pain doing them on a straight bar, and also by doing them on an EZ curl bar.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  10. #10
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    So, John, or anyone else, would it be ok on chest/back day to do 3x8 bench supersetted with 5x3 power cleans? Would it also be fine to do them as straight sets?(3 bench sets then 5 power clean sets?)

    Then do maybe deadlifts paired with incline bench?

    I am getting very confused. We wanted shoulders/traps/forearms to have their own day.

    But, at the same time, I want these exercises included no matter what(lol)

    Bench press
    Military press
    Deadlift
    Squat
    Power clean
    A form of a chinup/pullup

    Bent over rows would be nice, but I think a power clean could take care of that.

    Wouldn't it be overkill to do military press on deadlift, bench, incline bench, and power clean day? I need serious help lol.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  11. #11
    aka BBB BabyBodybuilder's Avatar
    Join Date: Mar 2007
    Location: Florida, United States
    Stats: 5'11", 223 lbs
    Posts: 3,188
    BodyPoints: 26309
    Rep Power: 118
    BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) BabyBodybuilder has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    Visit BabyBodybuilder's BodySpace
    BabyBodybuilder is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Definitely a lot of wacky stuff, have you seen the woman's form on the upright rows? One arm is completely to the side lol.




    I feel a lot of wrist pain doing them on a straight bar, and also by doing them on an EZ curl bar.
    That's because your grip is too narrow. If you're doing them for shoulders (mid delt), you need a very wide grip. Here watch this:

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glasscut1.htm
    The only time you'll ever see 'success' before 'work' is in the dictionary

    OGZERS, it's been 3 hours and 6 minutes since my last meal, teh biceptz are going catabawlick!!!!

    Bodybuilding is simple, not easy..
    Reply With Quote

  12. #12
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by BabyBodybuilder View Post
    That's because your grip is too narrow. If you're doing them for shoulders (mid delt), you need a very wide grip. Here watch this:

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glasscut1.htm
    Great video man!

    Though, it says the wide grip is for shoulder joint health, I didn't see any mention of wrist health.

    Would it help at all? I'll try it, but if it hurts, I'm stopping.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  13. #13
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Which of the two is correct? Seems the squatting one would be much better.

    Also, how is this exercise(below) different than a bent over row for the back?

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...+Rear+Delt+Row
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  14. #14
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Also, how is this exercise(below) different than a bent over row for the back?

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...+Rear+Delt+Row
    if trying to hit rear delt more, you row with the arms out at 90 degrees to the body...pulling the bar more to your chest area

    to hit lats more you row it more to the stomach area which means the elbows are more tucked to the sides
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  15. #15
    Registered User Dave76's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2004
    Posts: 9,066
    BodyPoints: 34493
    Rep Power: 16227
    Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Dave76's BodySpace
    Dave76 is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Which of the two is correct? Seems the squatting one would be much better.
    Both are correct. One is a power clean. The squatting one is a full clean.
    Reply With Quote

  16. #16
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Which of the two is correct? Seems the squatting one would be much better.
    the squatting one is a full clean..or just called a "clean"


    the non squatting one is a "power" clean (although you do squat some, just not down into a full squat)

    the power clean takes less technique.
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  17. #17
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    u can do chest and back together no problem..either supersetting or alternating...or just do each exercise by itself

    id do back, then chest

    power clean
    dead
    pulldowns/chins
    bench

    (maybe next time do chest first)

    then id just do delts on another day but not the following day..give at least a day in between...maybe combined with legs


    squat
    leg ext
    seated military press
    side laterals (or wide upright row)


    What you could do is do this

    M-back/chest

    W-legs/delts

    Fr-back/chest

    M-legs/delts

    W-back/chest

    etc alternated like that


    then throw in arms/abs/calves wherever they fit on whichever day.
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  18. #18
    KNEES GO PAST TOES GoJu's Avatar
    Join Date: Aug 2005
    Age: 28
    Posts: 19,145
    BodyPoints: 30344
    Rep Power: 4082
    GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) GoJu has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit GoJu's BodySpace
    GoJu is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Which of the two is correct? Seems the squatting one would be much better.

    Also, how is this exercise(below) different than a bent over row for the back?

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exer...+Rear+Delt+Row
    they're two different lifts

    squat cleans are cleans caught in a full front squat, this one is very technique oriented, you have to be good at that style to lift a lot of weight there

    power clean are cleans done with only a slight dip at the top to catch the weight.

    typically, when the form is good, you can lift more with the squat clean than with the power clean, that's because the squat clean isn't pulled as high as the power clean.

    cleans are good for traps, rear delts, and some upper back and legs but there are better moves for mass building, now if you want athletic strength than this is one lift I would suggest you invest some time into.
    'Prior to the Department of Education, there was no illiteracy'

    - Stizzel
    Reply With Quote

  19. #19
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by Dave76 View Post
    Both are correct. One is a power clean. The squatting one is a full clean.
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    the squatting one is a full clean..or just called a "clean"


    the non squatting one is a "power" clean (although you do squat some, just not down into a full squat)

    the power clean takes less technique.
    Oh, thanks guys. When an article/program says "power clean", does that mean "deadlifting" the weight up and getting your elbows under it, without a lot of squatting? I've been working on squat catching it, hopefully that's ok.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  20. #20
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    What you could do is do this

    M-back/chest

    W-legs/delts

    Fr-back/chest

    M-legs/delts

    W-back/chest

    etc alternated like that


    then throw in arms/abs/calves wherever they fit on whichever day.
    A few questions, would doing that allow an "intermediate", if you can call me that, lifter to progress?(benching 1.5 times a week) Do I do different rep schemes? 3x8 then 5x5? or keep it the same?

    That seems somewhat similar to the starting strength(alternating workouts)

    then throw in arms/abs calves...
    Could I do close grip at the end of the chest day? Can dips fit in? I know that's probably too many exercises for a workout. It's confusing as hell lol. I'm glad you know what you're doing.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  21. #21
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    its very technique oriented

    in general you bring it up slowly or moderate paced to just above knee level and then you explode upwards with leg drive to get the barbell really moving, then you "dip" under and flip the ellbows under it to catch it. Its NOT an arm movement

    in a "power" clean you just dip a little...in a full clean you squat all the way down which is even more technique

    best thing to do is find a local coach who can teach you (good luck, lol)
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  22. #22
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    how would that be 2 many? its still just a handfull, lol

    id say you can do 5-6 exercise per workout with no problem at all..especially if some are just 3 sets

    and remember, in that alternating workout you can put biceps or triceps (or whatever) on either day so you dont overload one day or the other

    for example maybe this

    day 1
    power clean
    dead
    pulldowns/chins
    bench
    dips
    abs


    day 2
    squat
    leg ext
    seated military press
    side laterals (or wide upright row)
    close grip press
    curls
    calves
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  23. #23
    Registered User Dave76's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2004
    Posts: 9,066
    BodyPoints: 34493
    Rep Power: 16227
    Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Dave76's BodySpace
    Dave76 is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Oh, thanks guys. When an article/program says "power clean", does that mean "deadlifting" the weight up and getting your elbows under it, without a lot of squatting? I've been working on squat catching it, hopefully that's ok.
    Most programs say "power clean" which it the one without the squat. You deadlift it (kind of) to a point just above your knee. From there, you start the second pull which is a combination of a jump/shrug/straightening of the back. It is most definitely NOT an upright row.

    You really need to do some research on this technique. Better still, like John said, find a coach. That could be problematic. You'll need to find an Oly/PL gym somewhere to find someone qualified to teach the lift. They're not likely to be found at your local fitness center.
    Reply With Quote

  24. #24
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    its very technique oriented

    in general you bring it up slowly or moderate paced to just above knee level and then you explode upwards with leg drive to get the barbell really moving, then you "dip" under and flip the ellbows under it to catch it. Its NOT an arm movement

    in a "power" clean you just dip a little...in a full clean you squat all the way down which is even more technique

    best thing to do is find a local coach who can teach you (good luck, lol)
    Oh, I've been driving into the ground(pushing the earth away) and yanking the bar up as hard as possible, then shrugging, rotating elbows and wrist down under the bar, then finally dip catching it. I shouldn't do the beginning like that?(bring up slowly)
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  25. #25
    Registered User Dave76's Avatar
    Join Date: Sep 2004
    Posts: 9,066
    BodyPoints: 34493
    Rep Power: 16227
    Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Dave76 has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Dave76's BodySpace
    Dave76 is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Oh, I've been driving into the ground(pushing the earth away) and yanking the bar up as hard as possible, then shrugging, rotating elbows and wrist down under the bar, then finally dip catching it. I shouldn't do the beginning like that?(bring up slowly)
    It's a two part move. Once you learn it, it will be all in one motion. For the learning stage, it's not a bad idea to go slow until the bar is just above the knee. At that point, you have to explode (go fast) to have any chance of cleaning much weight.
    Reply With Quote

  26. #26
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    how would that be 2 many? its still just a handfull, lol

    id say you can do 5-6 exercise per workout with no problem at all..especially if some are just 3 sets

    and remember, in that alternating workout you can put biceps or triceps (or whatever) on either day so you dont overload one day or the other

    for example maybe this

    day 1
    power clean
    dead
    pulldowns/chins
    bench
    dips
    abs


    day 2
    squat
    leg ext
    seated military press
    side laterals (or wide upright row)
    close grip press
    curls
    calves
    Using the triceps 3 times a week won't be negative?(bench 1.5 times) and close grip 1.5 times.
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  27. #27
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Using the triceps 3 times a week won't be negative?(bench 1.5 times) and close grip 1.5 times.
    you'll be fine....many programs have u bench 3x per week..such as Sheiko powerlifting programs...or probably various of the 5x5 programs

    some of the biggest benchers ever, such as mike Mcdonald benched 3x per week

    HEll, I went from 275 bench to 315 in like 6 weeks once, benching 3x per week, and I was 37!! lol

    youre 20!! go ahead and enjoy that youth and super high test levels
    Last edited by John Prophet; 07-03-2007 at 06:55 PM.
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  28. #28
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Oh, I've been driving into the ground(pushing the earth away) and yanking the bar up as hard as possible, then shrugging, rotating elbows and wrist down under the bar, then finally dip catching it. I shouldn't do the beginning like that?(bring up slowly)

    well, there is some disagreement or controversy on that. Some feel it is best to explode right off the ground when you have good leverage etc.

    I think the majority opinion is that its best to keep under control a little bit until the bar passes somewhere around knee level, then explode up as hard as u can
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

  29. #29
    Alpha. Richie_Awesome's Avatar
    Join Date: Dec 2006
    Location: Ohio, United States
    Age: 27
    Stats: 6'5", 295 lbs
    Posts: 14,682
    BodyPoints: 60392
    Rep Power: 10084
    Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) Richie_Awesome has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit Richie_Awesome's BodySpace
    Richie_Awesome is offline
    Originally Posted by John Prophet View Post
    you'll be fine....many programs have u bench 3x per week..such as Sheiko powerlifting programs...or probably various of the 5x5 programs

    some of the biggest benchers ever, such as mike Mcdonald benched 3x per week

    HEll, I went from 275 bench to 315 in like 6 weeks once, benching 3x per week, and I was 37!! lol

    youre 20!! go ahead and enjoy that youth and super high test levels
    Do I keep sets/reps the same each workout?
    If life gives you AIDS, make lemonAIDS

    ISSA Certified CFT
    Reply With Quote

  30. #30
    Registered User John Prophet's Avatar
    Join Date: Oct 2005
    Age: 47
    Stats: 204 lbs
    Posts: 16,020
    BodyPoints: 23302
    Rep Power: 8105
    John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) John Prophet has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit John Prophet's BodySpace
    John Prophet is offline
    Originally Posted by Richie_Awesome View Post
    Do I keep sets/reps the same each workout?
    I wouldnt...simply out of boredom. But you can track some of it. like maybe keep the bench days similar, then the close grip days similar, but different from each other

    like maybe do 4x5 on bench...but do 3x8 on close grip. That way u can keep up with each day to see if u r progressing...but u wont be using the same reps every single time in the gym

    id keep the reps the same for maybe 4-6 weeks TOPS, then change things around

    or, vary them more than that. Its al work in the end. on bench you could do 4x5 one week, 3x6 another week. 4x4...whatever

    or even do a pyramid on occasion 10,8,6,4 etc
    "Humility comes before honor"
    Reply With Quote

Reply
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Home Store Products Careers Help Contact Us Terms of Use Checkout