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    Registered User danyalati's Avatar
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    Beginner (never trained), 5x per week!! Is this okay?

    Originally Posted by Defiant1
    It REALLY depends on what stage you are at, since you are asking for a definative answer I will give you one.

    Beginner (never trained): 1-3 sets per bp, 5x per week. (For about 2 weeks to a Month)
    Beginner 2: 3-5 sets per bp, 3x per week.
    Intermediate: 5-8 sets per bp, 2x per week (train 4x per week)
    Advanced: 8-15 sets per bp, 1x per week (train 5x per week)
    Advanced 2: 8-20 sets per bp, 1x per week or less (train 4-5x per week)

    If you are an ectomorph use mostly compound exercises, and stay towards higher frequency but lower overall sets, with lowish reps

    If you are an endomorph use 1 compound and mostly dbs/cables-stay towards higher volume but lower frequency and highish reps

    If you are a mesomorph you are probably not reading this as anything you do works.

    None of this is carved in stone, just basic guidelines I believe in.
    i just read this, and its the first one i came across with 5 days per week and with 3 sets on each body part
    now the question is, i am trying to build muscles as much as i can in 43 weeks (300 days), would this be the most suitable for me?

    i am a endo>meso, weighting 225, 5'9. does anyone have any idea of what my diet should be like. currently i am taking 200g protein, but how much calories should i take in?
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    bulking 16-20x ur bodywieght
    cutting 13-15x ur bodyweight
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    myself, i don't worry about calories anymore, i just count protien. if you're wanting to bulk, 200g won't be enough. try more like 250-300 for your size.


    i used to train 5x/week; only problem imho is geting in the 'right' mindset- have to be in the training mindset 5 out of 7days....not for me. also, if you're doing 5x, make certain to keep it short...~35minutes per day. don't want to over-tax yourself.
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    Registered User danyalati's Avatar
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    so 5 days sounds like the maximum growth for muscles, right?
    then thats for me
    ohh man, i tried to do as quickest as possible, but i takes me atleast 1 -1 1/2 hour to complete since it doing each body part for 3 sets

    just worried about overtraining my cns?

    since i am also trying to lose all the fat i have, i am also doing cardio in the morning everyday to lose the fat, but could that affect my muscle growth
    and for that matter u'll be doing low intensity

    and i am a high school student so dont have much cash, so what protein would be the cheapest?
    what should be the price per serving, the cheapest one i found here was $0.32
    for 20g protein!! is this the cheapest??
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    just get yourself some cheap whey concentrate. whey is only "necessary" post workout, you should get most of your protein from whole food, if you really can't, then use whey as meal replacements here and there.

    i wouldn't recommand doing cardio everyday unless you are VERY fat or competing. also, if your routine takes you AT LEAST 1-1.5 hours to complete, i sugget you review your routine, if your intensity is high enough then your routine really shouldn't take more than an hour, 1.5 hours is the absolute maximum, anything more than that you should change your routine or up your intensity level.
    -Mortality-
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    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by danyalati
    i just read this, and its the first one i came across with 5 days per week and with 3 sets on each body part
    now the question is, i am trying to build muscles as much as i can in 43 weeks (300 days), would this be the most suitable for me?

    i am a endo>meso, weighting 225, 5'9. does anyone have any idea of what my diet should be like. currently i am taking 200g protein, but how much calories should i take in?
    The 5x a week thing should only be used for a short time. You will make quick initial gains as your CNS adapts to the "grove" of each exercise and becomes more efficient at muscle recruitment.

    I would suggest this more specifically.

    1st week-1 set each exercise, 5x per week
    2nd week-2 sets each exercise, 5x per week
    3rd week-2-3 sets each exercise, 5x per week

    Then go to 3x per week.

    I want to stress that the 5x per week will accelerate your gains, but is only to be used FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME and ONLY IF YOU HAVE NEVER TRAINED BEFORE. If you have trained before, the 5x per week thing will only last 2 weeks tops and most likely less.
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    Originally Posted by imageek
    just get yourself some cheap whey concentrate. whey is only "necessary" post workout, .
    yep, whey is good; esp. if you can buy it cheap.
    <->
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    Registered User danyalati's Avatar
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    i can see whey being sold here on bodybuilding.com
    but not sure if these are the cheapest online
    since i am new to whey
    and i checked out the nutrition store near my house
    the prices were damn high

    plus i dont have a credit card
    so i have to mail the money
    and i live in canada, so the shipping cost is high


    Do you guys know of any other protein site?
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    Talking

    First off, 5x a week for each body part would be horrible.

    3x a week may be pushing it.

    If you're just starting off--and you lift decent weight (something that makes you WORK for it)--you'll be so damn sore after the first week or two--no joke whatsoever.

    It's hilarious now, but after like the second week of lifting again (didn't do it for a couple months, and wasn't serious about it before [and kind of young])

    I was in so much pain in the middle of the week. The night before I didn't feel a thing--I felt like a million bucks. The morning--omg. My ENTIRE BODY was sore. Abs, hams, quads, biceps, triceps, wow. I could barely move out of bed.
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    Registered User egoatdoor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ko_kidd
    First off, 5x a week for each body part would be horrible.

    3x a week may be pushing it.

    If you're just starting off--and you lift decent weight (something that makes you WORK for it)--you'll be so damn sore after the first week or two--no joke whatsoever.

    It's hilarious now, but after like the second week of lifting again (didn't do it for a couple months, and wasn't serious about it before [and kind of young])

    I was in so much pain in the middle of the week. The night before I didn't feel a thing--I felt like a million bucks. The morning--omg. My ENTIRE BODY was sore. Abs, hams, quads, biceps, triceps, wow. I could barely move out of bed.
    A classic illustration. No beginner should be training five days week. Any so called expert or personal trainer who suggests this is clueless, incompetent and dangerous.
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    Train smarter, not harder $AJ's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by danyalati
    i can see whey being sold here on bodybuilding.com
    but not sure if these are the cheapest online
    since i am new to whey
    and i checked out the nutrition store near my house
    the prices were damn high

    plus i dont have a credit card
    so i have to mail the money
    and i live in canada, so the shipping cost is high


    Do you guys know of any other protein site?
    check PMs for canadian whey supplier
    <->
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  12. #12
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by egoatdoor
    A classic illustration. No beginner should be training five days week. Any so called expert or personal trainer who suggests this is clueless, incompetent and dangerous.
    Any discussion you want to have I'd be glad to and we'll see how "clueless" I am. Feel free to read my other posts smart guy.

    Read the reasoning and tell me where it's wrong. It works. Period. Vince Gironda who knows (knew) more than you or I put together had his pupils do this.

    It works because initial gains are due to CNS improvements NOT muscular changes. It also works because of beginners inefficiency in training, and harnesses their natural enthusiasm.

    Recent study: Beginners who trained 4 or 5x per week made greater gains than those who trained 2 or 3, with the 5x per week trainers making the greatest gains. I'll try to get a link for you as you sound like a know-it-all who will ask.
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    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by egoatdoor
    A classic illustration. No beginner should be training five days week. Any so called expert or personal trainer who suggests this is clueless, incompetent and dangerous.
    That illustration proves nothing about frequency, it proves something about WEIGHT USED. He said his workout WEIGHT made him sore with DOMS, so your "classic illustration" is down the tubes. In all likelihood, if he would have trained again with the correct weight, the soreness might have diminished. The idiot who had him use max weights is the incompetent one. I have said before that beginners should not be training with heavy weights.

    Any discussion you want to have I'd be glad to and we'll see how "clueless" I am. Feel free to read my other posts smart guy.

    Read the reasoning and tell me where it's wrong. It works. Period. Vince Gironda who knows (knew) more than you or I put together had his pupils do this.

    Notice that I put caveats in regarding training 5x per week, with specific restrictions.

    It works because initial gains are due to CNS improvements NOT muscular changes. It also works because of beginners inefficiency in training, and harnesses their natural enthusiasm. PURE beginners do not have the ability to "damage" their CNS due to inefficiencies. Despite soreness, it's the CNS that causes overtraining, not muscular "damage".

    Beginners who trained 4 or 5x per week made greater gains than those who trained 2 or 3, with the 5x per week trainers making the greatest gains. I'll try to get a link for you as you sound like a know-it-all who will ask.
    Last edited by Defiant1; 09-26-2004 at 04:05 PM.
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    Here are excerpts from The Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding, by Gerard Thorne and Phil Embleton ( one of the best bodybuilding books ever written I feel) pages 110 and 111 under the subject "Getting Started":
    "The primary goal of a beginning level bodybuilder is to lay down an adequate foundation-nothing fancy, just basic exercises...Your beginning bodybuilding program should be performed three times a week on alternate days...You train the whole body each workout, performing one exercise per muscle group. Each exercise will be performed for three sets of 8-12 repetitions...The exercises we have chosen are considered the most productive for the beginning level bodybuilder. They are called compound movements...."

    A beginner SHOULD NOT be doing 5 days a week and should not be doing a split routine. First of all, the body needs to get adapted to working out. Initially, especially in the first workout or two, any weight, regardless of how light it is, can result in DOMS. I still remember my first workout at 21 years old where a trainer took me through a very basic, what I thought at the time, very easy and light weight dumbbell and machine workout. It seemed so easy, no big deal. the next morning, I couldn't get out of bed I was so sore.

    A beginner needs to spend several weeks ( or months) learning proper form, developing strength and coordination and acquiring knowledge of weight training principles and nutrition basics before moving to the advanced beginner/intermediate stage which then can mean more workouts per week, a split routine and adding more exercises to the routine. In the long run, you stand a much better chance of achieving your goals in this way than trying to go too fast too soon, which unfortunately is what I see too often with new members in most gyms.

    A 5 day routine for a beginner in my mind is akin to trying to teach a first grader eight grade algebra or putting a 16 year old behind the wheel of a NASCAR race car on their first day in a car and asking them to drive the car at 150 MPH.

    Take a look at my November 21 reply to this thread for a response to a similar question:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=187642
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    Originally Posted by egoatdoor
    Here are excerpts from The Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding, by Gerard Thorne and Phil Embleton ( one of the best bodybuilding books ever written I feel) pages 110 and 111 under the subject "Getting Started":
    "The primary goal of a beginning level bodybuilder is to lay down an adequate foundation-nothing fancy, just basic exercises...Your beginning bodybuilding program should be performed three times a week on alternate days...You train the whole body each workout, performing one exercise per muscle group. Each exercise will be performed for three sets of 8-12 repetitions...The exercises we have chosen are considered the most productive for the beginning level bodybuilder. They are called compound movements...."

    A beginner SHOULD NOT be doing 5 days a week and should not be doing a split routine. First of all, the body needs to get adapted to working out. Initially, especially in the first workout or two, any weight, regardless of how light it is, can result in DOMS. I still remember my first workout at 21 years old where a trainer took me through a very basic, what I thought at the time, very easy and light weight dumbbell and machine workout. It seemed so easy, no big deal. the next morning, I couldn't get out of bed I was so sore.

    A beginner needs to spend several weeks ( or months) learning proper form, developing strength and coordination and acquiring knowledge of weight training principles and nutrition basics before moving to the advanced beginner/intermediate stage which then can mean more workouts per week, a split routine and adding more exercises to the routine. In the long run, you stand a much better chance of achieving your goals in this way than trying to go too fast too soon, which unfortunately is what I see too often with new members in most gyms.

    A 5 day routine for a beginner in my mind is akin to trying to teach a first grader eight grade algebra or putting a 16 year old behind the wheel of a NASCAR race car on their first day in a car and asking them to drive the car at 150 MPH.

    Take a look at my November 21 reply to this thread for a response to a similar question:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=187642
    For one, I have that book, and it's just ok IMO. It mimics their other writing in Muscle Mag International.

    I never said ANYTHING about training on a split routine.

    Your analogies about teaching a first grader eighth grade algebra and putting a 16 year old behind the wheel of a nascar car make NO sense.

    It is MORE analygous to doing double splits for football (remember them?) then going back to once a day when the season starts.

    The simple fact of the matter is that if you understood the nature of training, and of beginners, and of the human body, it would make perfect sense to you.

    Fact: Beginners need to learn the GROOVES and MECHANICS of the exercises. Bulgarian weightlifters practice this up to SIX (!) times per day. 6 or 7 days a week.

    Fact: Beginners, because of their lack of strength and skill, simply don't do much damage unless they are forced to use weights they shouldn't be using. Even then, the soreness that results is DOMS, not from "damage" to the muscles. Frequent training eliminates DOMS.

    What do they need a day off the recover from? Days off are to let the CNS recover, not the muscles, at least initially. That's why runners can run everyday and still progress. They are working the muscles, but not training with enough intensity to stress the CNS.

    Absolute beginners simply do not have the ability to work their CNS very hard, because it is inefficient at a. fiber recruitment and b. neural "pathways" for each movement.

    Again, your story about "not being able to get out of bed" shows you used too much weight. It has nothing to do with the frequency, as you were sore after 1 workout. Were you supposed to wait until all soreness was gone before you trained again? Haven't you ever trained for a sport where you trained everyday, and when you first started you were sore? Did you tell your coach "sorry, can't train today, still sore"? That type of soreness is just the muscles being used in unfamiliar ways. By training frequently with low intensity, you increase circulation and healing.

    You really are not focusing on everything I said. Again, I said for a short period of time.

    By the way, I use this technique after layoffs and experience TREMENDOUS growth despite training while "sore". I still train while sore with no detrimental effects.
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1
    For one, I have that book, and it's just ok IMO. It mimics their other writing in Muscle Mag International.

    I never said ANYTHING about training on a split routine.

    Your analogies about teaching a first grader eighth grade algebra and putting a 16 year old behind the wheel of a nascar car make NO sense.

    It is MORE analygous to doing double splits for football (remember them?) then going back to once a day when the season starts.

    The simple fact of the matter is that if you understood the nature of training, and of beginners, and of the human body, it would make perfect sense to you.

    Fact: Beginners need to learn the GROOVES and MECHANICS of the exercises. Bulgarian weightlifters practice this up to SIX (!) times per day. 6 or 7 days a week.

    Fact: Beginners, because of their lack of strength and skill, simply don't do much damage unless they are forced to use weights they shouldn't be using. Even then, the soreness that results is DOMS, not from "damage" to the muscles. Frequent training eliminates DOMS.

    What do they need a day off the recover from? Days off are to let the CNS recover, not the muscles, at least initially. That's why runners can run everyday and still progress. They are working the muscles, but not training with enough intensity to stress the CNS.

    Absolute beginners simply do not have the ability to work their CNS very hard, because it is inefficient at a. fiber recruitment and b. neural "pathways" for each movement.

    Again, your story about "not being able to get out of bed" shows you used too much weight. It has nothing to do with the frequency, as you were sore after 1 workout. Were you supposed to wait until all soreness was gone before you trained again? Haven't you ever trained for a sport where you trained everyday, and when you first started you were sore? Did you tell your coach "sorry, can't train today, still sore"? That type of soreness is just the muscles being used in unfamiliar ways. By training frequently with low intensity, you increase circulation and healing.

    You really are not focusing on everything I said. Again, I said for a short period of time.

    By the way, I use this technique after layoffs and experience TREMENDOUS growth despite training while "sore". I still train while sore with no detrimental effects.
    Its obvious that we are at two different ends of the spectrum and I am not interested in furthering a p___ssing match, so I will state a couple of more points and then leave it to the readers here to decide what they feel in their minds is the right way to go.

    On your statement about using too much weight, on each exercise we were using either the lowest weight on the machine or 5 pound dumbbells. You CANNOT GOT ANY LOWER, so if that was too much weight, what is the solution? Not lift at all???. I frankly feel your point there is ludicrous and the other poster who talked of his experience with soreness I think points out the veracity of my point.

    I don't understand the nature of beginners and beginners and the nature of the body? OK, so Muscle Mag, Muscle and Fitness ( which also advocated a limited number of full body workouts in its Beginning Bodybuilding Guide) and two experienced and knowledgable trainers personal trainers I know and respect ( which is saying alot because 99% of the trainers I've known and seen are incompetent to say the least) who start people in the same manner don't understand either? I guess Richard Baldwin, whose articles on this site are some of the best around, doesn't understand either with the self same philosophy in this BB.com article on beginning training doesn't understand either?

    http://bodybuilding.com/fun/babyboom56.htm

    Well, you believe what you want to believe, I have alot of evidence to support my view and as I said, everyone else, you decide what you think is best.
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  17. #17
    Squats traps to grass Defiant1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by egoatdoor
    Its obvious that we are at two different ends of the spectrum and I am not interested in furthering a p___ssing match, so I will state a couple of more points and then leave it to the readers here to decide what they feel in their minds is the right way to go.

    On your statement about using too much weight, on each exercise we were using either the lowest weight on the machine or 5 pound dumbbells. You CANNOT GOT ANY LOWER, so if that was too much weight, what is the solution? Not lift at all???. I frankly feel your point there is ludicrous and the other poster who talked of his experience with soreness I think points out the veracity of my point.

    I don't understand the nature of beginners and beginners and the nature of the body? OK, so Muscle Mag, Muscle and Fitness ( which also advocated a limited number of full body workouts in its Beginning Bodybuilding Guide) and two experienced and knowledgable trainers personal trainers I know and respect ( which is saying alot because 99% of the trainers I've known and seen are incompetent to say the least) who start people in the same manner don't understand either? I guess Richard Baldwin, whose articles on this site are some of the best around, doesn't understand either with the self same philosophy in this BB.com article on beginning training doesn't understand either?

    http://bodybuilding.com/fun/babyboom56.htm

    Well, you believe what you want to believe, I have alot of evidence to support my view and as I said, everyone else, you decide what you think is best.
    But it was NOT the frequency that made you sore, so your "soreness" is not an argument for less training frequency. There is no reason not to train again when you are sore, and that training can, in fact, diminish the soreness.

    You seem to keep dancing away from the fact that I said 2 weeks to a month tops for this type of training.

    Remember, you called me "clueless" etc. hence my strong response.

    I am not saying that 3x per week is wrong, just needlessly limiting initially. The study info re: the 5x per week being better for beginners than 3x is new, so you can hop on the bandwagon later on when it becomes mainstream. I go by experience first, science 2nd.
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  18. #18
    Registered User egoatdoor's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Defiant1

    You seem to keep dancing away from the fact that I said 2 weeks to a month tops for this type of training.
    I'm not dancing. I do not think a beginner should be training 5 days a week regardless of how long a period of time they do it.
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by egoatdoor
    I'm not dancing. I do not think a beginner should be training 5 days a week regardless of how long a period of time they do it.
    To understand, please ask yourself a simple question. What does a COMPLETE beginner 48 hours to recover from?

    He doesn't have enough efficiency to damage his CNS.

    Soreness is not an issue, as he will be sore no matter what; repetitive training will IMPROVE soreness.

    He is not strong enough nor should not be training with enough weight to warrant a 48 hour recovery for his "muscles" themselves. As I previous stated and know (and I'm sure you do, since I am "clueless"), muscles themselves recover VERY quickly e.g. runners, athletes, gymnasts all train daily at sub-maximal intensities with complete recovery.

    Glycogen stores replenish within 1 hour if supplied with the correct nutrients.

    Bulgarian and Soviet research has shown that CNS efficiency improves most rapidly when daily and multi-daily repetition of a task is done.

    Recent research FLAT OUT shows that beginners gain greater strength when training 5 days per week as opposed to 3 or 2. (3 is shown to be better than 2 or 1, 4 better than 3,2, or 1 but not as good as 5).

    So, regardless of what you THINK, Those are the facts. As I said before, you can hop on the bandwagon later on.
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