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  1. #1
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    H2O / Cell Volumization... the ultimate supplement

    I posted this in another thread, but it without question deserves it's own thread. Definately don't knock superhydration until you try it.

    "Is there any evidence that the idea of increasing cell volume to create an anabolic response is based on reality? The answer is an emphatic yes. Cell volume increase is a common, meaning shared, event seen in cells that are exposed to hormones or nutrients that cause an anabolic response. In fact, the cell volume increase occurs prior to the biochemical events related to protein or glycogen synthesis. A German researcher by the name of Haussinger has published a large number of studies investigating the role cell volume changes play in cellular metabolism... I mention him only so readers who wish to do their own review will have a starting point.

    If volume changes are actually responsible for the metabolism of a cell, why haven't others written about it in the many fine (and less-than-fine) strength magazines? Frankly, the material isn't easy to find. The easy stuff is already exploited to nearly unrecognizable states. Ephedrine, creatine, protein and caffeine have all been included in many products because the information base is easily accessed and widely distributed; however, there's a huge amount of scientific material that is not available on databases like Medline. Much of it is what's called basic research, meaning that it's been performed in a test tube, cell plate or tissue culture or on animal models. Basic science represents the frontier of science, as it challenges researchers to prove or disprove something that's as yet unknown. Once it's proven, then it can be applied, meaning that it's put to use. Studies in applied science validate questions that have been raised and investigated in basic science.

    Cell volume increases signal anabolic functions. That was demonstrated when researchers exposed cells to anabolic hormones and measured the cellular response. In an identical set of cells they induced an increase in volume by changing the osmolarity, or salt content, of the solution surrounding the cell. The cells that were exposed to anabolic hormones swelled, much like a sponge when exposed to water. Surprisingly, the researchers noted the same cellular response in the second set of cells, even though no anabolic hormone was used. Later studies showed that shrinking the cells caused an opposite effect-the same effect that occurred when cells were exposed to catabolic hormones! So let's make this first and critical point clear:

    Cell volume increase (swelling) creates an anabolic response.

    Cell volume decrease (shrinking) creates a catabolic response.


    Imagine living in a small one bedroom apartment. You fill it up with furniture, stopping when the rooms are full. Life is wonderful, and soon you're able to afford a two-bedroom house with a basement. What do you need or want as soon as you move? More stuff to fill the rooms. Soon you have an office set (instead of a card table), washer and dryer, coffee table and a serious entertainment center. Your space (volume) gets bigger, so you get more stuff. Later, life bites and you return to the one-bedroom apartment. Many of the things disappear-either to Dad's basement or to the repo man. Your space (volume) gets smaller, and you lose stuff. Think of your muscle cells as the living space and your possessions as muscle cell protein and cell contents. Bigger place, more stuff; bigger cell, anabolic growth.

    The application to bodybuilding is obvious. Let's swell those muscle cells until they explode. Can they explode? That might be cool to watch, but it sounds painful and may affect your bench press. Actually, the cells can't explode and in fact can only have a moderate degree of swelling. There are regulatory mechanisms in place to prevent the occurrence of unlimited swelling. When a cell dies, however, the mechanisms are gone, and it may shrivel into a dead shell.

    So, as exciting as unlimited growth would be, the best we can get is slow progressive growth after repeated exposure to agents that cause cellular swelling. That brings us to supplements.

    There are a number of cellular solutes that can enter a cell and make it swell. They typically pull water into the cell, causing a volume increase. What's more, some of the agents will have hormonal responses in addition to the cell volume effect."
    CONTROLLED LABS - WINNING the WAR against GENETICS
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    Email: pt [at] controlledlabs.com

    Disclaimer: The above post is my PERSONAL OPINION and DOES NOT REPRESENT the official position of any company. It DOES NOT constitute medical advice. CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility (no hormones produced in the facility/no cross contamination).
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  2. #2
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Cell Volume and Muscle Growth - Part I
    Implications for Nutritional Supplementation
    By John M Berardi

    Gym "experts"

    When most gym rats talk about getting bigger they are obviously referring to muscle growth or hypertrophy. Often, however they don't really have a clue as to what's happening within their muscles in order to make them bigger and stronger. For all they know little muscle fairies sneak into their rooms at night and when they wake up in the morning, voila, they're bigger. Without fail, though, this never seems to stop the most ignorant of them from throwing around their lack of information with poorer form than the 20 lb dumbbells they use for "cheat" curls. And although I'm not the most brilliant guy in the world, I consider myself fairly knowledgeable at the iron game. For some reason, though, I seem to be a target for these gym "experts" as they are continually instructing me as to how to train and diet!

    One comment that I hear pretty often that never ceases to amaze me is the comment many gym "experts" make regarding creatine. Perhaps you have heard it too. It goes something like this "So whaddya think about that creatine stuff? I tried it and yea it'll put some pounds on ya, but it's all water weight and I don't like to feel bloated. Besides, you lose it all when you go off anyway". (Its amazing how the statement they wish to make is always posed in the guise of a question as if they really wanted my opinion). Well at this point rather than respond to the "question" I usually thank them for the info and let them know that they just saved me a lot of wasted time and money on such a worthless supplement.

    As an educator, I should be a little more understanding, but when I'm in the middle of a squat workout in which I am taking 60 second rest periods between sets, I really don't have time to reprogram Biff and his anti-creatine chronies.

    In all honesty Biff is right (god I hate to admit it) about one thing; the first few pounds gained when taking creatine are probably just a result of increased water weight. BUT the bloated feeling Biff is referring to is probably not a result of his creatine intake but probably from his 6 Budweiser and his Bucket o' ribs at Sizzler last night. The reality of the situation is that an increase in water weight from creatine isn't such a bad thing. In fact if that water weight happens to be intracellular fluid (which it often is) not only should that water weight lead to increased strength, but it should also lead to increased protein synthesis, increased muscle mass, and long term growth. Let me explain:

    What exactly is muscle growth? Hypertrophy vs Hyperplasia

    To begin, I'd like to cover the two main ways for an individual to increase overall muscle size. The first, muscle fiber hypertrophy, refers to the increase in the diameter of the individual muscle cells. The larger the cells, the larger the overall muscle, it's that simple. Muscle fiber hypertrophy = Big muscle fibers.

    The second, muscle fiber hyperplasia, refers to the splitting of muscle fibers in the interest of creating new fibers. Obviously this would be of interest to anyone pursuing size or strength due to the fact that and if an individual has more fibers, their overall size potential is greater. Therefore when looking at hyperplasia, Muscle fiber hyperplasia + Muscle fiber hypertrophy = Many big muscle fibers.

    At this point, I know that you're all supercharged to learn how to both make more fibers and to make them bigger, but I'm going to have to put the breaks on and be the bearer of bad news. The problem with hyperplasia is that no one really knows exactly how to promote it. Once we are born, some experts believe, muscle fiber number remains fixed for our lifetime. Therefore under normal circumstances muscle fiber hyperplasia seems nearly impossible.

    nterestingly, though, experts have begun to speculate that under abnormal circumstances hyperplasia can contribute to overall muscle growth. For starters, recreational or even moderately intense weight training will probably NOT do it. Unfortunately there has not even been any evidence that very intense weight training will promote hyperplasia. One proposed link to hyperplasia, though is anabolic steroid use. A recent article in the American College of Sports Medicine's Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise found evidence for muscle fiber hyperplasia in anabolic steroid using powerlifters(1). This however, is pretty much the first evidence of a mechanism for hyperplasia in humans. The bottom line is that unless we are ready to boatload anabolic steroids into our systems, neither you nor I are going to be enjoying the benefits of muscle fiber hyperplasia any time soon. So what about hypertrophy? Well that, my friends, is a reality.
    CONTROLLED LABS - WINNING the WAR against GENETICS
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  3. #3
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Two types of hypertrophy?

    Let's address the 2 main forms that muscle fiber hypertrophy can take. Muscle fiber hypertrophy can be accomplished by either increasing the volume contained within the muscle cell or by increasing the actual amount of muscle contractile protein making up the muscle cells. To give a simple analogy to help differentiate between the two types of hypertrophy, one can think of the muscle cell as a water-filled balloon. To make the balloon bigger (hypertrophy), one can either add more water to the balloon, thereby stretching it to its maximum capacity (increase cell volume) or one could theoretically add more balloon material to make the overall size of the balloon larger (increase in contractile protein). Although the mechanisms that cause increased cell volume and increased contractile protein content may be different, both are affected by weight training and there seems to be a link between the two that bodybuilders may be able to exploit in order to cause lasting muscle growth

    First and foremost, when we talk about hypertrophy, we are most often referring to the second type mentioned above - an increase in contractile protein (adding more material to the balloon). This type of hypertrophy is the most lasting since it constitutes a remodeling of the muscle fibers, making them permanently bigger than before (assuming you continue to train, of course). Muscle increases of this type are not only asthetically pleasing, but also contribute significantly to strength. The more fibers available to contract, the more weight can be lifted!

    But what about the other type of hypertrophy? Well let's put it this way; how many of you wish that your muscles looked as good outside of the gym as they do in the gym after a great skin-stretching "pump"? I know that when I was younger, I wouldn't even take one step out onto to the beach without doing some pushups first in order to "get a little blood into the muscle". This phenomenon, the infamous "pump", is a short-lived example of increased cell volume. Fluid moves into the cell thereby causing it to stretch, take up more space, and make you look pretty darn good. Unfortunately, such increases in cell volume disappear almost as quickly as they came. The good news is that there are other ways to increase cell volume for longer periods of time.

    The increases in cell volume and their contribution to muscle growth that I wish to address are brought about by naturally by increases in cellular water; increases in the cellular storage of substrates such as carbohydrates, lipids, or amino acids; and increases in the cellular movement of ions like sodium and potassium. Research has shown that supplements like creatine, glutamine, and ribose can also lead to increases in cell volume by both increasing their own content within the cell but also by attracting water into the cell, causing cell swelling (2,3,4,5).

    What's the big deal with increased cell volume or cell swelling?

    If you've read any of my previous articles, you know that I'm big on citing research, for without quality research, our attempts at finding out the truth about how our universe operates are merely stabs in the dark. (Kind of like Biff's attempt at rational thought.) This research focus applied to the cell volume question has produced quite a bit of very interesting research that has and is bound to continue to dramatically impact the fitness and sports nutrition industry. Initially cell volume studies focused on the cells of the liver since the liver is the most important organ for whole body metabolic regulation (3,5,6).

    What these studies found was that independent of hormone influence or substrate influence, decreased cell volume (cell shrinking) lead to cellular catabolism or protein breakdown, while increased cell volume (cell swelling) led to anabolism or protein synthesis. In this regard, the original authors of such papers concluded that cell swelling or shrinking acted as a "second messenger to tell the cell what to do about protein synthesis. Basically, the hormones tell the cell to swell or shrink and it is this swelling or shrinking, not the hormone's action, that leads to changes in protein metabolism.

    These findings were particularly exciting for muscle physiologists because this link could be explored in many clinical populations such as burn victims who are extremely catabolic and the elderly who tend to lose large amounts of muscle mass. Although the muscle research has mostly focused on catabolism rather than anabolism, a few important "take home" findings are evident. First is that decreased body water and intracellular nutrients can lead to cell shrinking and as we now know, increased muscle protein breakdown (7). Therefore by maintaining normal hydration and maximal substrate storage with ample fluid consumption and nutrient intake, an individual can easily prevent a great deal of protein breakdown. Also, although experimentally unproven, increased cell volume above normal hydration may lead to increases in muscle protein content. This is where supplements, especially those consumed immediately after bouts of intense exercise, come into play.

    References

    (1) F Kadi, A Eriksson, S Holmner, LE Thornell. Effects of anabolic steroids on the muscle cells of strength-trained athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999 Nov; 31(11):1528-34
    (2) Tim Ziegenfuss, Lonnie Lowery, and Peter Lemon. Acute fluid volume changes in men during three days of creatine supplementation. JEPonlineVol 1 No 3 1998
    (3) Dieter Hauussinger, Florian Lang, Kathrin Bauers, and Wolfgang Gerok. Interactions between glutamine metabolism and cell-volume regulation in perfused rat liver. European Journal of Biochemistry 1989; 89: 1153
    (4) Dieter Hauussinger, Erich Roth, Florian Lang, and Wolfgang Gerok. Cellular hydration state: an important determinant of protein catabolism in health and disease. Lancet 1993; 341: 1330-1332
    (5) Ingwall, J.S., C.D. Weiner, M.F. Morales, E. Davis, and F.E. Stockdale. Specificity of creatine in the control of muscle protein synthesis. J Cell Biol 1974;63:145-151.
    (6) Deiter Haussinger and Florian Lang. Cell volume in the regulation of hepatic function: a mechanism of metabolic control. Biochemica et Biophysica Acta 1991; 1071: 331-350
    (7) Barbera Stoll, Wolfgang Gerok, Florian Lang, and Dieter Haussinger. Liver cell volume and protein synthesis. Biochemical Journal 1992; 287: 217-222
    (8) S.M. Hughes, and S. Schiaffino. Control of muscle fiber size: a critical factor in ageing. Acta Physilogica Scandinavica 1999; 167 (4): 307

    http://www.biochemj.org/bj/313/0697/3130697.pdf
    CONTROLLED LABS - WINNING the WAR against GENETICS
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    Email: pt [at] controlledlabs.com

    Disclaimer: The above post is my PERSONAL OPINION and DOES NOT REPRESENT the official position of any company. It DOES NOT constitute medical advice. CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility (no hormones produced in the facility/no cross contamination).
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  4. #4
    protein=GAS LIFT2beHUGE's Avatar
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    good post, I posed a Q in the science forum a while back asking a similar type question- muy interesante
    -SOLID-

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  5. #5
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Bump for the n00bs that seem to think waterweight is bad
    CONTROLLED LABS - WINNING the WAR against GENETICS
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  6. #6
    Registered User drewkowsky's Avatar
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    Talking

    Shazaam
    I don't have a tuxedo that fits anymore because my chest and my biceps are too big.
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  7. #7
    And then there were two Zachattack43's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    Bump for the n00bs that seem to think waterweight is bad
    no **** right, our bodies are 75% water
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  8. #8
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drewkowsky
    Shazaam
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  9. #9
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    ^^^^ for bulking season
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  10. #10
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    bump
    I don't have a tuxedo that fits anymore because my chest and my biceps are too big.
    Charlie Sheen
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  11. #11
    Gotta get bigger RSX-S's Avatar
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    Good Post, Thanks!
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  12. #12
    Registered User Wolfe008's Avatar
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    Very imformative...GOod post bro
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  13. #13
    I'm Par Deus, Byatch. Caleb Stone's Avatar
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    Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000) Caleb Stone is just really nice. (+1000)
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    Cell volume is such a huge part of signal transduction, cell growth/viability, protein synthesis, etc.. I think most have no idea how much interesting and exiting data there is on this. It is almost all in vitro, though, which is probably the reason is has not caught on even more.

    I'm defininitely a big fan.
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  14. #14
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    how come I can't rep Caleb?
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  15. #15
    And then there were two Zachattack43's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by j_neatherlin
    how come I can't rep Caleb?
    maybe bc he had that option turned off bc the supplement god knows he is approved by everyone already
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  16. #16
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    nice post, good read.
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  17. #17
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by j_neatherlin
    how come I can't rep Caleb?
    Woo hoo.

    He turned teh REPS on now.
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    Originally Posted by Caleb Stone
    Cell volume is such a huge part of signal transduction, cell growth/viability, protein synthesis, etc.. I think most have no idea how much interesting and exiting data there is on this. It is almost all in vitro, though, which is probably the reason is has not caught on even more.

    I'm defininitely a big fan.
    Look who's back. Big Cat won't be happy.
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  19. #19
    C6H13NO2 pu12en12g's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Caleb Stone
    I'm Par Deus, Byatch.
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    Stretch Mark Mass! - Anabolic Stretching for Anabolic Gains
    by Don Alessi


    What are the latest (sometimes dirty) methods bodybuilders use to quickly gain muscle mass or break size barriers? Drugs are probably the first thing you think of and you'd be right. Examples of this are anabolic androgenic steroids, anabolic growth factors like prostaglandin PGF2a, IGF-I, growth hormone, and injected insulin.

    How about site-injected oils? Yep, those too. Compounds composed primarily of medium chain triglycerides and silica are injected directly into a muscle, thereby promoting a constant stretch.

    Nutrition? Yes, this definitely plays a role in massive muscle gains. Carbohydrate depletion and loading (starving then overfeeding) manipulates insulin to force excessive nutrients and water volume into the muscle cells. This practice is intensified with oral insulin sensitizing pills or good ol' creatine.

    There’s no doubt all these methods work. Understand, I'm not talking about safety or legality here with many of these methods, just what the biggest freaks are choosing to do to pack it on before they hit the bodybuilding stage.

    But tell me, what's the single mechanism all these share? Answer: They force more nutrients and water into the muscle cells and S T R E T C H the crap out of those cells along with the connective tissues which enclose them. These two mechanisms— osmotic pressure and connective stretch—are very interesting. During the past decade they've immerged as limiting factors in adult muscle growth. Let’s take a microscopic look at these powerful underlying forces.

    Cellular osmotic pressure produces muscle tissue when an individual muscle cell becomes excessively filled with water and nutrients. Concurrently, the cell wall swells and thins, becoming increasingly unstable. In protective response to this change, the stretched cell wall triggers an increase in protein synthesis and thickens for survival.

    Now, most times, contracting muscle initiates increased cell volume (i.e. nervous system stimulation) and its effects are only temporary. However, by forcing the same effect through overfeeding of protein and calories along with perhaps using steroids or [PH's], you get a constant swelling that'll occur with or without a preceding muscle contraction.

    And guess what? This overloaded stiffening sustains itself for up to three weeks! The result is a much bigger, stretched muscle, regardless of any strength increase.

    Similarly, stretching the sheaths or layers that encapsulate the muscle bundles will elicit another anabolic effect. In protective response to this unstable change, the stretched muscle sheets trigger an increase in protein splitting, muscle cell division, and collagen breakdown and repair. The result is, again, hypertrophy for survival.
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    Osmotic Effect

    All AAS increase nitrogen retention and testosterone tends to notably create an even greater osmotic effect. Both facets increase protein synthesis and strength. Nitrogen retention is anabolic simply because amino acids are not exiting muscle cells. They therefore are available for repair and growth instead of exiting or becoming an energy source.

    Osmotic reactions simply mean there is an elevated level of intracellular nutrients, including water, available. The way an osmotic response effects or induces an elevation in strength is basic physics. Try benching on a waterbed. (No, I mean weights) There is little in the way of structural integrity.

    Now, if you filled that waterbed with much more water, thus creating a firmer structure, the ability of it and you to support and leverage a higher weight load will improve. The osmotic effect is not simply water retention. It is an increase intracellularly (inside muscle cells) of growth nutrients, including C.P., for increased cellular repair and growth as well. If it were outside of the cells only, you would be very smooth, but this is not the case entirely.

    Strength increases from most creatine supplementation range from 5-10% and body weight increases (over a 2 month cycle) range from 3-10%. This means a bodybuilder that weighs 200 LBS and bench presses 200 LBS for 10 reps max can realistically expect to weigh 206-220 LBS and bench press 210-220 LBS for 10 reps by the end of a 2 month cycle.

    Results from any following Creatine cycles tend not to be as impressive as first time cycles. Unfortunately about 20% of Creatine users do not respond to Creatine. This is usually due to an inability to get the Creatine into muscle cells.
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    Originally Posted by BB.COM
    Water: The Ultimate Thermogenic "Supplement"?

    In 14 healthy, normal-weight subjects, Dr. M. Boschmann and colleagues assessed the effect of drinking 500 milliliters of water on energy expenditure and substrate burning rates. Interestingly, drinking 500 milliliters of water increased metabolic rate by 30 percent. The increase occurred within 10 minutes and reached a maximum after 30-40 minutes.
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  23. #23
    Just the tip chlaxman's Avatar
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    ^^^^ Now that is interesting.
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    Cool

    Good thread, pu12en12g.
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  25. #25
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    Originally Posted by pu12en12g
    more...
    you get reps for that
    -SOLID-

    Steps to success:
    1.EAT
    2.Lift
    3.EAT
    4.Poop
    5.EAT
    6.Sleep
    7.Repeat
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    water weight is bad...
    for wieght releted sports
    My english is not perfect forgive me....
    just quatations and grammer are bad...
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    Originally Posted by Clayton South
    [ Q ] I read somewhere that with some supplements it is possible to keep a fraction of the volume gained during the workout. Is that true?

    Are there any supplements that will make my muscles keep a certain part of the volume I gained during the workout? Is this called "cell-volumizing"? If not, what is "cell-volumizing"?

    This is a great question that I am sure many bodybuilders have.
    Your question reflects an inability to distinguish between the muscle "pump" that comes from the concentration of blood in muscle tissue as a response to exercise induced muscular inflammation, and cell volumization that can occur from the use of nutritional supplements.

    Muscles sustain damage and become inflamed when they are subjected to stimulus. The increased flow and concentration of blood to damaged muscles is the body's response to this stimulus, and is the body's attempt to speed the recovery process by increasing nutrient and vitamin flow to damaged muscles. In short, the temporary increase in muscle size resulting from the pump is part of the bodies natural repair mechanism.

    Cell volumization is the process of increasing a cells volume by changing the internal constitution of the cell. Creatine monohydrate is a supplement that changes the internal constitution of a cell and leads to cell-volumization by supplying energy to working muscles through the ATP process and an increase intramuscular hydration.

    Many bodybuilders experience the pump during a workout session and equate the pump with muscular hypertrophy. Clearly, however, while the pump may be a mediator of muscular hypertrophy, and while the presence of the pump may increase the probability of muscular hypertrophy, it does not follow that the temporary size increases resulting from the pump will be translated into new and permanent muscle mass.

    Muscular recovery does not always result in muscular hypertrophy or muscular hyperplasia and thus the degree to which the pump is an indicator of muscular hypertrophy is not known.


    What Does Hypertrophy & Hyperplasia Mean?
    Hypertophy is an increase in the size of a muscle or organ.
    Hyperplasia is an increase in the number of cells in an organ or tissue.

    Cell volumization, by contrast, is a better indicator of muscular hypertrophy. Cell volumization allows for an increase in ATP levels, and this increase in work capacity may result in an increase in the stimulation of muscle fibers. This stimulation may result in hypertrophy or hyperplasia.

    An increase in work capacity and intensity will correspondingly trigger an increased demand for nutrients and vitamins. If the energy supply of your nutrition regimen matches or exceeds the energy you burn then you'll probably grow.

    Cell volumization also results in cellular hydration and an increase in the delivery of nutrients to muscle tissue. An increase of available nutrients may result in an increase in protein synthesis as a response to intense exercise. Thus, cell-volumization is a much better indicator of muscular hypertrophy than the pump.

    Supplements like creatine monohydrate and citruline malate are great for cellular volumization. If you want to grow I suggest that you give these two amazing supplements a try.
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    And my friends make fun of me for drinking more than 2 gallons a day....


    I just wish they could read this.

    Thanks Pu12, very informative
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    david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000) david4zero8 has a reputation beyond repute. Second best rank possible! (+100000)
    Visit david4zero8's BodySpace
    david4zero8 is offline
    Bump to the top.
    HORMONEMAN- worst rep on bb.com (WORST COMPANY owner) Steve Protein Factory is catching up (Edit: He's there).
    Read these threads:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=651142
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=650455

    HORMONEMAN's lies confirmed:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=662222
    Reply With Quote

  30. #30
    Shine on vegHead's Avatar
    Join Date: Jun 2004
    Age: 29
    Stats: 6'1", 208 lbs
    Posts: 5,137
    BodyPoints: 15711
    Rep Power: 5177
    vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000) vegHead has reached the pinnacle! Best possible rank! (+1000000)
    Visit vegHead's BodySpace
    vegHead is offline
    give this a bump
    you can boast about anything if it?s all you have. Maybe the less you have, the more you are required to boast.
    Reply With Quote

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