Is there truly a need for daily creatine supplementation?

[TheUnlikelyToad]

Toad's stance, probably not.

However, if you are dieting hard on a limited selection of foods including red meat, then yes I would supplement daily.

[Bodysteele]

x 2

X4..Loading, then 5 grams 3-4 times a week has always givent me great results W/ the noted gains in bloating and water retention.

Thats the way it is...if a few lbs of bloating is the end of the world to you I suggest taking up running and a vegan lifestyle...honestly folks.

I also believe in cycling it in 6 to 12 week cycles with equal cycles down.

I basically use it while on power/strength cycles bc it helps with being able to get reps and with recovery and explosiveness.

[MegaPump]

Based on the outcome of the study, I feel that 3-5 grams maintenance, taken 3 times a week is probably a wise choice.

It may be wise for the shorter term but I stand by what I said in my previous post. I think higher levels of creatine supplementation are needed and past the point of say 2 months your creatine levels are going to be way below what they would through standard creatine dosing. Thus lower levels of creatine stores mean less of a performance enhancement.

Do you know of any studys that say the standard dosing of creatine has caused down regulation?

[NO HYPE]

Do you know of any studys that say the standard dosing of creatine has caused down regulation?

There are none.

[NO HYPE]

It may be wise for the shorter term but I stand by what I said in my previous post. I think higher levels of creatine supplementation are needed and past the point of say 2 months your creatine levels are going to be way below what they would through standard creatine dosing.

I do not agree.

[MegaPump]

Well we will have to agree to disagree then. Its also a shame you are one of the few non responders to creatine an can only base your opinion on theory and cant put it to practice.

Also if there are no studys or any solid evidence of standard creatine dosing then i will continue to take only a 5g dose daily (after loading). This thread has been of great value to me so I think you for that.

I havnt trained in 5 days and stuffed my diet for 4 but went to the gym for a workout and wasnt concerned about my creatine supplementation because my knowledge has increased. I havnt taken creatine for over 6 days and had a great workout today. I came back and looked freaken BIG in the mirror. Definatly some water retention but thats ok.

[NO HYPE]

Its also a shame you are one of the few non responders to creatine an can only base your opinion on theory and cant put it to practice.

Shame?

Not quite. I do not need supplemental creatine to achieve my goals.

Few?

Maybe you should re-evaluate the amount of people with fast-twitch muscle fibers, that very OFTEN.... do not respond to creatine supplementation.

Theory?

My.... OPINION .... was based on the FACTS of the study.

[skierdude1000]

awesome thread

nice to see some people questioning all the hype on creatine

[NO HYPE]

awesome thread

nice to see some people questioning all the hype on creatine

Thanks.... repped.

[5Six]

The only flaws I see in this arguement is that the study only involves one person and not a large group of people. And people are drawing conclusions from one study. Nonetheless, it is an interesting article.

[NO HYPE]

The only flaws I see in this arguement is that the study only involves one person and not a large group of people. And people are drawing conclusions from one study. Nonetheless, it is an interesting article.

It would be nice if there were more studies examining this aspect, but the subject was still a human, and I truly feel that while there are many differences between individuals.... the results would be similar for many.

[AphtaLyfe]

Maybe you should re-evaluate the amount of people with fast-twitch muscle fibers, that very OFTEN.... do not respond to creatine supplementation.

I am also a creatine non-responder. ALTHOUGH it would appear that kre-alkalyn for some reason does positively affect my strength as opposed to CM. (could be placebo)

Very interesting stuff.

So on the discussion dealing with the down regulation of CreaT: Even if the expression of CreaT was downregulated following a bout of long term creatine supplementation (lets say 6 months) wouldn't it also be assumed that your body would upregulate it as soon as creatine supplementation was ceased?

Even if CreaT was downregulated I'm pretty sure that most people who supplement creatine get more than need anyways (like NO HYPE stated a few times previous) so the downregulation of CreaT would limit the amount of creatine transport, but the amount of creatine is so high that I think it wouldn't matter as much.

Also just doing a little googling I found some info about creatine in meats... and it turns out that yes there is quite a lot of creatine inside red meats (and fish). Most people with good non-vegetarian diets probably get a lot of creatine from the red meat and fish they are eating already. (It said that beef has 4g/kg and fish had even more) So further supplementation of creatine although maybe still necessary... would not need to be in frequent/large amounts.

Most of what I'm saying has already been stated previously... just trying to add a little more support to the previous posts.

[5Six]

It would be nice if there were more studies examining this aspect, but the subject was still a human, and I truly feel that while there are many differences between individuals.... the results would be similar for many.

Indeed, there is. But if one was looking at a large group of resistance trained mine. And due to the physiological adaptations that occur when one is training for an extended period of time, it would be interesting to see what the results would be then. Since, generally speaking, all the adaptations occur similiarily.

But that is the point of having a large number of subjects in studies. To find an average, and not what happened to one guy.

[saku]

I really don't recommend (I don't even use it).

Towards the end of my trials with monohydrate.... I was taking around 2 grams, 3 times a week.

About a month ago I cut back to 2.5g of green mag 3 times per week. I havent notice the slightest difference in performance what so ever. I basically take 2.5g every second workout.

I really don't see myself ever needing to have to take more than that ever again.
1) it saves money
2) why ingest more creatine than my body will use?

[OxygeniX]

There are none.

YES THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE....HAVE YOU TRIED "PUBMED"

[Pern]

I gave up on these Creatine studies years ago...

still nothing new...

back to taking 5 grams a day, every day....

Whey
Multi
EFA blend
Creatine

I don't see long term damage taking these supplements daily without a cycling process. Until then, yeah, I'll continue to take 5 grams a day 7 days a week.

[NO HYPE]

The downregulation of the creatine transporter (CreaT) as a result of excessive creatine supplementation, has indeed been proven to be an evident fact.... it's just that no studies have evaluated this in healthy adults.

Do you know of any studys that say the standard dosing of creatine has caused down regulation?

There are none.

YES THERE ARE AT LEAST THREE....HAVE YOU TRIED "PUBMED"

IN HEALTHY HUMANS?

[mer-der-ah]

About a month ago I cut back to 2.5g of green mag 3 times per week. I havent notice the slightest difference in performance what so ever. I basically take 2.5g every second workout.

I really don't see myself ever needing to have to take more than that ever again.
1) it saves money
2) why ingest more creatine than my body will use?

i agree with your comment... i've only taken noz ft pre and post workout.... never on the off days. it does save tons of cash and the muscles still have the fullness and you still add on the poundage that one would expect from using a good creatine formula and solid training.

[RaferAlston26]

So basically, we shouldn't supplement with creatine? So far all the studies I've read so far go against even using it daily. Would there even be a benefit to using it work out days or would that still be worthless? That's the kind of vibe I'm getting from this.

[NO HYPE]

"What would you pay if I could show you a method that increases your muscle creatine (Cr) levels ~30% higher than those achievable by traditional loading protocols, insulin mimics, or even glucose laden powders for FREE... ...got your ATTENTION!!!"


Since this concept is "theoretical".... how does one explain the estimate of 30% higher muscle creatine?


"Looking at the typical loading phase developed back in 1921, the effects on human receptors over the first 5 days of loading have not been studied directly; what we do know is that with high levels of intracellular Cr a ~50% decline in transporter activity has been observed4."

This 50% decline in CreaT activity, was observed in vitro, with L6 rat and human myoblasts (muscle cells), which were both creatine-deprived, and creatine-fed in solution for 24-hours. I would assume that these conditions are difficult to mimic, from an endogenous standpoint. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/85/3/807.pdf

For example, how does a in vitro mouse/human fibroblast study (which indicated a 50% reduction in CreaT activity), relate to creatine supplementation in humans? Specifically, how does the simulated, high concentration of serum creatine used within this study (5 mM), relate to the endogenous levels that are reached by regular supplementation, following a standard (5 g) dose of creatine (once saturation has been established)?

Additionally, aside from substrate concentration, CreaT/CreaT protein activity is controlled by many factors that are not always taken into consideration with in vitro studies (e.g. it's its phosphorylation state, Na+ gradients, interaction with other plasma proteins and various hormones, ect.).

Bumped for a response from the author of the above excerpts.

[RaferAlston26]

I don't entirely get it so if I'm wrong in what I'm saying I feel no shame in being corrected. So what you're saying the loading phase actually is a negative thing to do? So we shouldn't load? Instead, we should consume creatine only on work out days in small... doses??

[CTB]

This has been a really interesting thread, I'll keep watching with interest. Nice to see some good scientific evaluation of a supplement - God knows that most of the info out there on supplements is written with an agenda in mind - selling!

[whitedime]

i only take creatine on workout days too. same with the shock therapy, and some of my other supplements. also i try to avoid too much caffeine when i dont need it also.

[OxygeniX]

IN HEALTHY HUMANS?

Yes in humans and up to 20 weeks on data on retention...Transporter down regulation from about 7-10 weeks at that point creatine concentrations fall even taking in the maintenance dose....

[NO HYPE]

Yes in humans and up to 20 weeks on data on retention...Transporter down regulation from about 7-10 weeks at that point creatine concentrations fall even taking in the maintenance dose....

Thank you, repped.... I will search around a bit more (it's been a while since I've viewed anything on the CreaT).

[OxygeniX]

Thank you, repped.... I will search around a bit more (it's been a while since I've viewed anything on the CreaT).

Ye been working in this area for the past 2 years and about ready to release some results as we wanted the clinicals to prove the theory. Have a look at the link below you might want to post it as a new thread, but we wont be discussing for a few months yet but will drop back in when ready....

WWW.CREATINE.TV

[GeneGnomeX]

Interesting, whoever did those animations is good.

So regular monohydrate should be cycled? Every month and a half take a break for awhile?

[user23960508710788]

From personal experience I do just as well with or without it, I feel no difference in endurance, my strength does not go up or down and I see no visual difference. This is with creatine mono, micronized mono, the Animal Pump blend, the Storm blend and bulk CEE... to me, worthless.

Visually (mass) speaking, i've seen results posted here by people, both in words and in pictures, and the results don't seem noticeable at all.

It's a tough call, when someone starts taking creatine and then says they've gained four or five pounds in the past month. Well, if you are eating enough calories (which the motivation for may go up when taking a new supplement), that's not exactly difficult to do WITHOUT creatine.
When a person is spending their precious money or time on something they also have a NEED to see results biased in favor of what they are doing which can skew up the results... Ive literally seen people post before/after pictures saying they feel so much more "tight and vascular, and my muscles are so swolen now"... well say what you want, but to me the before/after looks exactly the same.

I've seen far too many people who take absolutely no supplements, just eat like horses, gain some serious muscle and strength to believe creatine is that big of a deal.

[NO HYPE]

Ye been working in this area for the past 2 years and about ready to release some results as we wanted the clinicals to prove the theory.

WWW.CREATINE.TV

BRAVO. Looking forward to this breakthrough Dr. Tallon.

[fmrmarineinbiz]

I'm starting to wonder a lot of the same things myself about creatine. Do I really need it? I DO take Animal Pump, and have made good strength gains while on it, but has that been due to the creatine....or the high dose of caffeine giving me extra energy to knock out more reps??? I take two of the red caffeine caps on my workout days, and skip the red caps on my 'off' days. Especially with all the recent, and very provoking studies, and feedback on Beta Alanine. Lots of real world evidence that seems to show it kicks creatines' arse from a performance, and muscle building standpoint. I'm thinking after my next can of A.P., I may order a B.A. product, and buy NoDoz (caffeine pills with 200mg per cap....$5ish a bottle for 35), and see how I do on that "stack" for a few months vs. on creatine.