Is there truly a need for daily creatine supplementation?

[saku]

I say, no way.

I've posted an abstract of this study before, but I just found access to the entire study.

Here's a case study which indicated that daily creatine supplementation was not needed to maintain skeletal muscle PCr saturation during a 30-day washout.... yes, 30-days. The study was repeated twice.

What was even more impressive, was that PCr levels increased 45% after the first bout (20-g for 5-days), and only 22% of that increase was lost out of a 30-day time-frame.... that's still 23% higher than the pre-supplementational values. This would suggest that daily creatine supplementation appears to only keep serum levels from being depleted.

If PCr levels remain elevated from creatine supplementation for a significant duration of time, even when not supplementing creatine.... then I strongly feel that creatine can easily be ingested on workout days only, without any depletion of skeletal muscle PCr whatsoever.

EFFECTS OF REPEATED CREATINE SUPPLEMENTATION ON MUSCLE, PLASMA, AND URINE CREATINE LEVELS

I strongly agree with you. I only take creatine on workout days as well.

[grapemaster]

It's called leverage. You didn't miraculously gain and lose strength. You gained and lost leverage. Is the 5lbs in water weight worth the slight gain in lifting numbers? It's up to you.

Yeah thats my main reason for not using, I've tried every kind under the sun, they allll make me bloat up, particularly in my face. yes being vain, but... oh well, I can just train another month or so for the same results. Also otherwise normal blood test showed up above average creatinine levels, yes it is a natural byproduct but it is also taxing your body more... many people have the same issues come their blood results.

[GeneGnomeX]

Yeah thats my main reason for not using, I've tried every kind under the sun, they allll make me bloat up, particularly in my face. yes being vain, but... oh well, I can just train another month or so for the same results. Also otherwise normal blood test showed up above average creatinine levels, yes it is a natural byproduct but it is also taxing your body more... many people have the same issues come their blood results.

Creatinine is not harmful

What dose are you taking?

[NO HYPE]

I didn't see this before, Dr. Tallon wrote an article on this subject: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon2.htm

I wanted to adress a few points, in relation to that article.



"What would you pay if I could show you a method that increases your muscle creatine (Cr) levels ~30% higher than those achievable by traditional loading protocols, insulin mimics, or even glucose laden powders for FREE... ...got your ATTENTION!!!"

Since this concept is "theoretical".... how does one explain the estimate of 30% higher muscle creatine?



"Looking at the typical loading phase developed back in 1921, the effects on human receptors over the first 5 days of loading have not been studied directly; what we do know is that with high levels of intracellular Cr a ~50% decline in transporter activity has been observed4."

This 50% decline in CreaT activity, was observed in vitro, with L6 rat and human myoblasts (muscle cells), which were both creatine-deprived, and creatine-fed in solution for 24-hours. I would assume that these conditions are difficult to mimic, from an endogenous standpoint. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/85/3/807.pdf

For example, how does a in vitro mouse/human fibroblast study (which indicated a 50% reduction in CreaT activity), relate to creatine supplementation in humans? Specifically, how does the simulated, high concentration of serum creatine used within this study (5 mM), relate to the endogenous levels that are reached by regular supplementation, following a standard (5 g) dose of creatine (once saturation has been established)?

Additionally, aside from substrate concentration, CreaT/CreaT protein activity is controlled by many factors that are not always taken into consideration with in vitro studies (e.g. it's its phosphorylation state, Na+ gradients, interaction with other plasma proteins and various hormones, ect.).

[NO HYPE]

"Since muscle cells must rely on exogenous creatine, their ability to stabilize creatine flow may represent an important pathway for regulating creatine homeostasis and controlling their phos****en content. Unregulated creatine uptake might lead to depletion of ATP stores as the creatine is phosphorylated to P-Cr by creatine kinase, thereby creating an unfavorable metabolic situation. Down-regulation of creatine transporters would prevent the accumulation of excessive concentrations of intracellular creatine."

Extracellular creatine regulates creatine transport in rat and human muscle cells.


"To conclude, the most critical determinant for the regulation of Cr metabolism seems to be the serum concentration of Cr. An elevation of serum [Cr] over an extended period of time would point to excess de novo biosynthesis or dietary intake of Cr and, in addition, would indicate that the tissue pools of Cr and PCr are replenished. The observed or suspected effects of an elevated serum [Cr], namely, to downregulate the expression and/or activity of AGAT and possibly also the Cr transporter, would therefore help to spare precursors of Cr (Arg, Gly, Met) and to maintain normal, steady levels of Cr and PCr in CK-containing tissues. As a consequence, the rate of Cr biosynthesis is highest in young, healthy, fast-growing vertebrates under anabolic conditions on a balanced, Cr-free diet (1077)."

Creatine and Creatinine Metabolism

[heavyduty]

So NO HYPE what dosage do you recommand, something like 5 grams 3 times a week?

[powerman2000]

Depends on one's diet.

[NO HYPE]

So NO HYPE what dosage do you recommand, something like 5 grams 3 times a week?

I really don't recommend (I don't even use it).

Towards the end of my trials with monohydrate.... I was taking around 2 grams, 3 times a week.

[NO HYPE]

Is there truly a need for daily creatine supplementation?

Depends on one's diet.

One's diet is not a factor in terms of the standard daily creatine protocol that thousands of people abide by.

[powerman2000]

One's diet is not a factor in terms of the standard daily creatine protocol that thousands of people abide by.

What I meant is that creatine supplementation is not needed at all if enough foods containing creatine are consumed on a regular basis.

[GeneGnomeX]

What I meant is that creatine supplementation is not needed at all if enough foods containing creatine are consumed on a regular basis.

Creatine studies aren't standardized for dietary intake, this is in addition to diet. If it were easy to saturate from dietary intake there would be no need for supplementation.

[powerman2000]

Creatine studies aren't standardized for dietary intake, this is in addition to diet. If it were easy to saturate from dietary intake there would be no need for supplementation.

Nobody said that it's easy, but eating red meat everyday will cover most peeps very nicely.

Supplementation isn't about need as much as it it about convenience. For example, If you supplement with creatine then you could avoid having to eat the red meat. Maybe some people just want creatine and not all the calories that go with eating red meat.

Red meat has huge amounts of creatine.

[HalleluYAH]

If PCr levels remain elevated from creatine supplementation for a significant duration of time, even when not supplementing creatine.... then I strongly feel that creatine can easily be ingested on workout days only, without any depletion of skeletal muscle PCr whatsoever.

Agreed^^^.

[HalleluYAH]

The following peer reviewed article (June 2006) summarizes all of the available information relating to potential downregulation of CrT via Cr supplementation...

The Regulation and Expression of the Creatine Transporter: A Brief Review of Creatine Supplementation in Humans and Animals
http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.or...1-60-66-06.pdf

[HalleluYAH]

Creatine studies aren't standardized for dietary intake, this is in addition to diet. If it were easy to saturate from dietary intake there would be no need for supplementation.

What I meant is that creatine supplementation is not needed at all if enough foods containing creatine are consumed on a regular basis.

Nobody said that it's easy, but eating red meat everyday will cover most peeps very nicely.

Supplementation isn't about need as much as it it about convenience. For example, If you supplement with creatine then you could avoid having to eat the red meat. Maybe some people just want creatine and not all the calories that go with eating red meat.

Red meat has huge amounts of creatine.

You both have valid points. The studies done on Cr effiacy on enhanced performance/strength etc. were undoubtedly done w/trained athletes or at least subjects who are well nourished. Thus, the increased strength/performance would be attributed to the supplemental Cr.

That said, keeping CrP saturated is the main goal, and diets consisting of red meat etc. will likely only require a short loading phase followed by several grams of Cr taken per week on WO days only to maintain CrP saturation.

Of course, this is only my opinion, but adding in the idea of CrT downreglulation with chronic Cr supplementation, it seems to make more sense keepin overall use at the minimum amount required to meet the goal and prevent potential downregulation.

[Mickfootie]

Should you take Creatine on off Days?

There is evidence that indicates that it helps with muscle recovery. So taking it on your off days is a good idea. However a lot of people will argue against this. IMO if you feel that it is helping with muscle recovery, then use it on your off days. If you are not convinced that it helps with recovery, then you do not need to use it on off days.

It is obviously down to the individual when it comes to this matter.

I personally take a creatine supplement daily and take a couple of weeks off it every 3 months or so.

[whitesox3223]

It's called leverage. You didn't miraculously gain and lose strength. You gained and lost leverage. Is the 5lbs in water weight worth the slight gain in lifting numbers? It's up to you.

am i the only one here that read this is and thought "WTF"? or did everyone else ignore it for that reason?

[NO HYPE]

Of course, this is only my opinion, but adding in the idea of CrT downreglulation with chronic Cr supplementation, it seems to make more sense keepin overall use at the minimum amount required to meet the goal and prevent potential downregulation.

This is why I am having trouble understanding Dr. Tallon's theory of 20 grams for the first 48 hours, followed by a maintenance dose of 6 grams per day to prevent downregulation. Especially when considering the fact that once saturated, skeletal muscle PCr levels remain elevated for extended durations of time, without supplemental creatine's presence whatsoever.

Why not use much smaller doses, seperated by a couple of days?



"This approach will not elevate Cr to the same Cr values seen in typical loading protocols and as such will not saturate and cause down regulation and expression of the Crt.

To achieve this little trick we need to use small but regular Cr doses. Avoiding the peak and trough approach demonstrated with regular Cr loading is the way forward. A program of 1.5 - 2g taken 10 times a day will allow receptors constant access to Cr before the body can slow uptake down. In this way we decrease the stress placed on the renal system and make available the best possible plasma Cr delivery system for enhanced uptake."

"A regimen of 1.5 - 2 g per day 10 times a day for the first 48 hours followed by a maintenance dose of 1.5 - 2g 3x per day should see you achieve optimally Cr loaded muscles."

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon2.htm

[NO HYPE]

The following peer reviewed article (June 2006) summarizes all of the available information relating to potential downregulation of CrT via Cr supplementation...

Previous animal research has repeatedly shown a down regulation in CreaT expression following long-term creatine supplementation. It is argued that since the animal doses of creatine were much higher when equated to humans, downregulation of the CreaT may be very slight or nonexistent when applied to a typical moderate dosing regimen in human individuals.

Tarnopolsky et al. chose to examine this particular issue in order to ?determine whether a moderate-term (2 month) creatine monohydrate supplementation protocol would down-regulate the total amount of CreaT protein in young and elderly individuals participating in a resistance exercise training protocol 22.?

Results concluded that intracellular creatine levels were significantly elevated among all groups. Additionally, no alteration in CreaT protein content was apparent with either creatine supplementation or exercise training. CreaT mRNA was not affected following acute creatine loading. In addition to Murphy?s work,21 no difference between genders were observed in relation to CreaT protein or CreaT mRNA abundance. In conclusion, creatine supplementation with a simultaneous resistance training protocol effectively raised the intracellular creatine content and did not result in a decrease in CreaT protein or CreaT mRNA.

Thanks HalleluYAH. Newer studies are always a plus.


So it appears as though CreaT downregulation initiated by short-term creatine ingestion is unlikely, however when considering chronic long-term ingestion.... I would think that elevated serum creatine, for EXTENDED periods of time, would negatively augment creatine metabolism in one form or another.

the most critical determinant for the regulation of Cr metabolism seems to be the serum concentration of Cr. An elevation of serum [Cr] over an extended period of time would point to excess de novo biosynthesis or dietary intake of Cr

Creatine and Creatinine Metabolism

[MegaPump]

The downregulation of the creatine transporter (CreaT) as a result of excessive creatine supplementation, has indeed been proven to be an evident fact.... it's just that no studies have evaluated this in healthy adults.

No Hype, what is this evident fact of creatine down regulation?

[MegaPump]

^^
Ok I just found it. The study was a 2 week loading phase followed by a 5g dose 3 times daily. After 8 weeks creatine levels where lower than when they started.

Today a standard way to use creatine as far as I know is a firstly a loading phase which is opional and involves a 5g dose 5 times daily. All this does is saturate the muscles in creatine in a quicker time.

Then a maintainace dose of 5g on non training days and 10g on training days.

Also acording to Paul Cribbs research -" A small maintenance dose is futile at maintaining high muscle creatine concentrations. Using a small dose after loading ensures that high muscle creatine concentrations disappear within 6 weeks!"[5]

5. Van Loon et al. Clinical Science 104:153?162. 2003

[MegaPump]

Depends on one's diet.

Diet, as far as I know there are only very small amounts of creatine in meat. Also once its cooked you probably loose a lot of it but I dont know for a fact.

[MegaPump]

I really don't recommend (I don't even use it).

Towards the end of my trials with monohydrate.... I was taking around 2 grams, 3 times a week.

Hey No Hype, was wondering what other doses you have tried if any.

[GeneGnomeX]

Diet, as far as I know there are only very small amounts of creatine in meat. Also once its cooked you probably loose a lot of it but I dont know for a fact.

Nah, only a little is lost through cooking. You'd be surprised, you could get quite a bit of creatine and beta-alanine from a well planned diet.

[MegaPump]

No Hype, dont know if you missed my posts or didnt want to answer them so I ll type what i was originally going write to the above quote. Now seeing as thoe you said "trails" I asume you would have tried other doeses.

I really don't recommend (I don't even use it).

Towards the end of my trials with monohydrate.... I was taking around 2 grams, 3 times a week.

^^

Maybe that there is the problem.

[NO HYPE]

Hey No Hype, was wondering what other doses you have tried if any.

Many different dosages.... and NONE of them did much of anything.

[MegaPump]

See as thoe this thread was non replyable and locked I started a new thread which was a continuation of this thread. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post59228481 I will now keep all posts on this original thread.

[MegaPump]

This morning as I woke up I thought about this very subject. We know that after a 5 day loading phase followed by no creatine supplementation for 30 days showed only a decrease of 20% in creatine stores.

Now if we were to only have a 3g maintanace dose 3 times a week would keep creatine levels higher than no supplementation at all but what happens past the point of 30 days. You guessed it it progressively decreases further and forther requiring a further loading phase to resaturate and keep the responsiveness of the supplement up.

Maybe a normal dosage of one 5 g dosage or two 5g doses for mass on training days and one on rest days is the way to go. Then later you can cut back to one 5g dose per day then only on training days and then a period of non use. A 20% decrease is significant and would be noticable, taking a 5 g dose 5 times a week may get that dcrease to 5% and that we can live without thus eleminating the effects of down regulating. After a period of non use a reload phase can be induced keeping creatne and ATP stores maxed out so that your getting the full effect of the supplement without down regulation.

[NO HYPE]

Now if we were to only have a 3g maintanace dose 3 times a week would keep creatine levels higher than no supplementation at all but what happens past the point of 30 days. You guessed it it progressively decreases further and forther requiring a further loading phase to resaturate and keep the responsiveness of the supplement up.

Based on the outcome of the study, I feel that 3-5 grams maintenance, taken 3 times a week is probably a wise choice.

[HalleluYAH]

Based on the outcome of the study, I feel that 3-5 grams maintenance, taken 3 times a week is probably a wise choice.

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