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  1. #301
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    Originally Posted by andymurray
    I take part in anerobic sports on my non-workout days. Do I need creatine everyday? Also I'm vegetarian, should I add 1 gram a day on to you figures
    It really doesn't matter all to much what type of exercise is being performed, as the degradation of intramuscular PCr takes a considerable amount of time to return to baseline values. If you want to take it every day for reassurance, just drop the dose accordingly.
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  2. #302
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    Thanks. If you workout 6 day's a week, do you have to take 3-5 grams, 6 days a week?
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  3. #303
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    Never mind
    Last edited by mike990; 11-18-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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  4. #304
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    Originally Posted by in10city View Post
    In vivo evaluation of the satellite cell count per muscle fiber when creatine is combined with resistance training has shown that it's enhanced for only about 16 weeks from the start of creatine use (Olsen et al. 2006).
    So should it be cycled?
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  5. #305
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  6. #306
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    NO HYPE, the following study from an earlier page, indicates that creatine affects endogenous synthesis.

    whttp://jap.physiology.org/content/97/3/852.full

    Doesn't this mean you need to take in more, to replace the lost 2 grams synthesized by the body?
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  7. #307
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    I used to take creatine but I stopped because of water weight and not wanting to lose gains when I stopped taking it. I train with high intensity for about 90 mins/ day and am not having any problems gaining size and strength, but recently I've started training very hard and I'm wondering if I should start taking it again for an extra boost? Is it worth it to take temporarily or would I need to stay on it? Is it worth taking permanently? Just wondering what your opinions on it..
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    NO HYPE, the following study indicates that creatine hinders endogenous synthesis.

    http://jap.physiology.org/content/97/3/852.full

    Does this mean you need to take in more, to replace the 2 grams synthesized by the body?
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  9. #309
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    NO HYPE, the following study from an earlier page, indicates that creatine affects endogenous synthesis.

    whttp://jap.physiology.org/content/97/3/852.full

    Doesn't this mean you need to take in more, to replace the lost 2 grams synthesized by the body?
    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    bump
    bump
    Not to speak for NO HYPE but:

    It would seem to me that the recommended daily dosage of 5g / day is far more than required to maintain high levels within muscle tissue. The original purpose of this thread was actually addressing the fact that you probably don't need that much creatine a day to maintain supraphysiologic muscle tissue levels.

    The down regulation of endogenous creatine production caused by exogenous creatine consumption is most likely marginal compared to how much you're pumping in exogenously.

    An analogous situation would be when a person takes testosterone (exogenously) and this down regulates their endogenous production; However, their levels of testosterone would still be far supraphysiologic as compared to baseline.
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  10. #310
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    NO HYPE, you say 3-5 gram, 3x a week. Could I go with the 3 gram estimate? Or is 5 grams a safer bet?

    30% less precursors surely reduces endogenous synthesis by a significant amount. If endogenous synthesis was to go down 0.6g (30%), should I add 0.6g daily?

    A study on rats revealed that going down to 1g per day still saw a 30% decrease. Heres the study - http://gala.gre.ac.uk/3355/

    We need a study comparing creatine stores after 19 wks, for 1.5 g and 5 gram doses. This would confirm that less creatine is okay.
    Last edited by mike990; 11-27-2012 at 08:01 AM.
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  11. #311
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    http://jap.physiology.org/content/97/3/852.full

    Doesn't this mean you need to take in more, to replace the lost 2 grams synthesized by the body?
    No. The replacement [is] the supplemented creatine. That study was conducted to merely evaluate the impact of exogenous creatine on endogenous creatine synthesis.



    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    NO HYPE, you say 3-5 gram, 3x a week. Could I go with the 3 gram estimate? Or is 5 grams a safer bet?
    There's really nothing set in stone at this point, so you kinda have to judge the amount by how often you workout, duration, and/or level of intesity. For example, someone who trains as a marathon runner is obviously going to benefit more from a higher/more frequent dosing protocol than that of your average gym goer. Let's say you have 4 average workouts per-week.... just take like 3-grams on workout days, and leave it at that. The basic premise is to avoid it's daily supplementation.



    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    A study on rats revealed that going down to 1g per day still saw a 30% decrease. Heres the study - http://gala.gre.ac.uk/3355/
    No. Only L-AGAT activity and GAA concentrations decreased in the rats --> there were no appreciable differences in serum creatine, as there was an exogenous source.
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  12. #312
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    3 grams, 3 times a week is 1.28 grams a day. If creatine synthesis was to go down by 30% (0.6g), this would mean we only need 0.68 grams per day. This seems really low. Is the 0.6 grams figure a poor estimate?
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  13. #313
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    NO HYPE, The following studies suggest 2 grams per day isn't enough

    Reference 1: no increase in muscle creatine concentration using two grams of creatine per day even after six weeks:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10449017

    Reference 2: in a study by Dr. Jeff Volek, subjects who loaded with creatine and then used a maintenance dosage of five grams per day for 11 weeks lost over half of the creatine they had stored:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1332335/
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  14. #314
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    What do you make of these studies NO HYPE? The two studies use low doses and don't increase muscle creatine stores?
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    I've tried creatine a few times and didn't really notice much of a difference. I guess it's because I also didn't use it very long or very often. Here's my point of view about supplements in general: I think that a lot of people mistakenly use supplements as a replacement rather than an addition. Proper nutrition is still very vital and most of your key nutrients should come from your food. Supplements, in my opinion, are designed to "put the icing on the cake" for those days when you happen to fall short on your food intake. For instance, if your diet consists of heavy amounts of protein and carbohydrates and you happen to fall just a wee bit short of your suggested protein intake from your foods, then they protein supplements are great giving you that extra boost. Maybe you only ate three servings of vegetables instead of five. The multi-vitamins can give you that extra boost to meet your daily goal. Some people, however, rely completely on supplements and not enough on nutrition. I like creatine, personally. I just don't rely exclusively on it. This is only my opinion
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  16. #316
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    NO HYPE, The following studies suggest 2 grams per day isn't enough

    Reference 1: no increase in muscle creatine concentration using two grams of creatine per day even after six weeks:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1332335/

    Reference 2: in a study by Dr. Jeff Volek, subjects who loaded with creatine and then used a maintenance dosage of five grams per day for 11 weeks lost over half of the creatine they had stored:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10449017
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  17. #317
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    Reference 1: no increase in muscle creatine concentration using two grams of creatine per day even after six weeks:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1332335/
    At 2 grams per-day [in the presence of endurance/aerobic exercise], the subjects never reached maximal PCr saturation. Using larger doses at the onset of supplementation in an effort to influence the sodium-dependent transporter, appears to be an important factor prior to intramuscular PCr saturation.

    According to the P-MRS analysis, ingestion of creatine didn't even influence PCr at rest - let alone during exercise. Also, the actual duration of supplementation was 6-weeks @ 2 grams per-day however, it's not clear at which timepoint creatine supplementation ended in relation to the analysis itself.
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    Reference 2: in a study by Dr. Jeff Volek, subjects who loaded with creatine and then used a maintenance dosage of five grams per day for 11 weeks lost over half of the creatine they had stored: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10449017
    I'm not following:

    "Muscle creatine was significantly elevated after 1 wk in creatine subjects (22%), and values remained significantly greater than placebo subjects after 12 wk."
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    Here is the full article. Look at table 7

    http://www.udel.edu/PT/PT%20Clinical...eb00/volek.pdf
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    At 2 grams per-day [in the presence of endurance/aerobic exercise], the subjects never reached maximal PCr saturation. Using larger doses at the onset of supplementation in an effort to influence the sodium-dependent transporter, appears to be an important factor prior to intramuscular PCr saturation.

    According to the P-MRS analysis, ingestion of creatine didn't even influence PCr at rest - let alone during exercise. Also, the actual duration of supplementation was 6-weeks @ 2 grams per-day however, it's not clear at which timepoint creatine supplementation ended in relation to the analysis itself.
    Does this mean you advise a loading phase? It is known that 3 grams a day will cause maximal pcr saturation.

    Is this study is a load of rubbish?
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    subjects who loaded with creatine and then used a maintenance dosage of five grams per day for 11 weeks lost over half of the creatine they had stored. Here is the full article. Look at table 7
    The goal is to elevate baseline concentrations. At no point were baseline values negatively compromised. The end result was significantly elevated concentrations over that of the placebo group.

    "Creatine values at week 12 were [slightly] lower but still significantly greater than placebo subjects."
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    The goal is to elevate baseline concentrations. At no point were baseline values negatively compromised. The end result was significantly elevated concentrations over that of the placebo group.

    "Creatine values at week 12 were [slightly] lower but still significantly greater than placebo subjects."
    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    Does this mean you advise a loading phase?
    A loading phase [of some degree] appears to be of value. Should this loading phase reflect that of the well-known 20 grams per-day? I doubt it however, there are few studies that have established anything conclusive, so it's anyone's guess.



    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    It is known that 3 grams a day will cause maximal pcr saturation.
    Following an initial loading phase, yes.
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 12-17-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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    If one does not supplement creatine, does the body make more of it's own to compensate in the long run? Not using creatine right now, am figuring to go NO HYPE's route of 3 g every other day once I start hitting plateaus with my routine.
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    Following an initial loading phase, yes.[/QUOTE]

    The following study states that 3 grams a day has the same effect as a loading dose

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8828669

    Will 2 grams a day cause saturation, as 3 grams did?
    Last edited by mike990; 12-17-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    The following study states that 3 grams a day has the same effect as a loading dose
    Yes, but as you can see by the previous study you cited, the existing data is conflicting. I'm not sure about the accuracy of P-MRS as a method of calculation vs. using muscle biopsies. Nonetheless, I don't think anything is set in stone at this point.



    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    Will 2 grams a day cause saturation, as 3 grams did?
    Not sure as the evidence is scarce, but the difference is only 1-gram, so just go with 3 if you're unsure.
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    So 3 grams without a loading phase is fine?
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    So 3 grams without a loading phase is fine?
    If the prolonged PCr deposition isn't a problem for your specific goals, then 3-grams without loading should be more than sufficient.
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    Also, the 2 gram study seems dodgy as meat eaters have higher creatine stores then vegetarians. Meat eaters on average consume 1-1.2 grams a day.

    So 2 grams or lower should make a difference to pcr muscle stores.

    I would love to see a study that addresses your recommendation of 3 grams, 3 times a week. Or just 1.287 grams a day.
    Last edited by mike990; 12-17-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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    Originally Posted by mike990 View Post
    Also, the 2 gram study seems dodgy as meat eaters have higher creatine stores then vegetarians. Meat eaters on average consume 1-1.2 grams a day.

    So 2 grams or lower should make a difference to pcr muscle stores.

    I would love to see a study that addresses your recommendation of 3 grams, 3 times a week. Or just 1.287 grams a day.
    Woops, realised an error there. Pcr stores and creatine stores are not the same thing. I will do some research to find out if meat eaters have higher pcr stores. If they do, then the 2 gram study remains dodgy.

    It's a shame No HYPE has been banned. I know he was a bit short-tempered, but he was a knowledgable poster.
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