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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Is there truly a need for daily creatine supplementation?

    I say, no way.

    I've posted an abstract of this study before, but I just found access to the entire study.

    Here's a case study which indicated that daily creatine supplementation was not needed to maintain skeletal muscle PCr saturation during a 30-day washout.... yes, 30-days. The study was repeated twice.

    What was even more impressive, was that PCr levels increased 45% after the first bout (20-g for 5-days), and only 22% of that increase was lost out of a 30-day time-frame.... that's still 23% higher than the pre-supplementational values. This would suggest that daily creatine supplementation appears to only keep serum levels from being depleted.

    If PCr levels remain elevated from creatine supplementation for a significant duration of time, even when not supplementing creatine.... then I strongly feel that creatine can easily be ingested on workout days only, without any depletion of skeletal muscle PCr whatsoever.

    EFFECTS OF REPEATED CREATINE SUPPLEMENTATION ON MUSCLE, PLASMA, AND URINE CREATINE LEVELS
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  2. #2
    Registered User v4lu3s's Avatar
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    since day one of my use of creatine i have only used it on workout days. I do not look at it as some sort of performance super duper enhancer, i look at it more as a food extract...much like i do protein powder etc.
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  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    since day one of my use of creatine i have only used it on workout days. I do not look at it as some sort of performance super duper enhancer, i look at it more as a food extract...much like i do protein powder etc.
    I think supplemental creatine sucks.... but that's probably just do to my fast-twitch muscle fibers. Overall though, I think that more people should stop and re-evaluate the reasonings behind it's daily administration.

    I also firmly believe that creatine's daily supplementation will result in the downregulation of the creatine transporter, and this would basically nullify the entire reasoning behind it's supplementation.
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    I liked creatine when I was on it. Wicked strength gains. I hated creatine when I was off it. Wicked strength loss. All in all, creatine isn't for me, I'll do without =]
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  5. #5
    Registered User v4lu3s's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    I think supplemental creatine sucks.... but that's probably just do to my fast-twitch muscle fibers. Overall though, I think that more people should stop and re-evaluate the reasonings behind it's daily administration.

    I also firmly believe that creatine's daily supplementation will result in the downregulation of the creatine transporter, and this would basically nullify the entire reasoning behind it's supplementation.

    i am not sure i buy the down regulation...but who knows. From time to time i get tired of taking it though....but i honestly do not notice a big diff between being on and off, its pretty slight for me, but i figure if i am going to spend money i am best off doing it on something that actually has real science to back it.
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    Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    i am not sure i buy the down regulation...but who knows.
    The downregulation of the creatine transporter (CreaT) as a result of excessive creatine supplementation, has indeed been proven to be an evident fact.... it's just that no studies have evaluated this in healthy adults.



    Originally Posted by v4lu3s View Post
    i honestly do not notice a big diff between being on and off, its pretty slight for me, but i figure if i am going to spend money i am best off doing it on something that actually has real science to back it.
    I too never noticed much of a difference.... hence the reason I stopped wasting my money.
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 06-23-2007 at 03:31 AM.
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  7. #7
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    so maybe taking it for a week once a month would be the best ways to have higher than normal levels of creatine and also avoid downregulating creatine receptors?
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    Originally Posted by Quelly View Post
    so maybe taking it for a week once a month would be the best ways to have higher than normal levels of creatine and also avoid downregulating creatine receptors?
    Well, not exactly.

    Unfortunately, taking it only once a month would allow for skeletal muscle creatine depletion.

    It would make logical sense, to only supplement creatine on the workout days only. A few days off will not significantly alter the PCr concentrations.

    .
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    PNBA Pro Bodybuilder Quelly's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Well, not exactly.

    Unfortunately, taking it only once a month would allow for skeletal muscle creatine depletion.

    It would make logical sense, to only supplement creatine on the workout days only. A few days off will not significantly alter the PCr concentrations.

    .
    I said once a month FOR A WEEK...that would only leave 3 weeks w/o supplemental creatine at a time, and the study stated that serum levels didn't drop below supplemental levels even after 30 days
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    Originally Posted by Quelly View Post
    so maybe taking it for a week once a month would be the best ways to have higher than normal levels of creatine and also avoid downregulating creatine receptors?
    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Unfortunately, taking it only once a month would allow for skeletal muscle creatine depletion. It would make logical sense, to only supplement creatine on the workout days only. A few days off will not significantly alter the PCr concentrations.
    Originally Posted by Quelly View Post
    I said once a month FOR A WEEK...that would only leave 3 weeks w/o supplemental creatine at a time,
    Yes. I read what you posted.... and 3 weeks without supplementation allows for PCr depletion.

    .
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    More: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post53207561

    few posts down des posted transporter downregulation citation
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    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    More: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post53207561

    few posts down des posted transporter downregulation citation
    The evidence is interesting to say the least (I presented that study to des). Even though the evidence within this study (as well as others) is inconclusive, it should make people think twice about supplementing creatine every day.

    IMO.... CreaT downregulation, likely applies to healthy individuals as well.
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 06-23-2007 at 03:32 AM.
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    Yeah I saw you posted in that thread now.

    I wish I could open pdfs on this computer

    Could be a reason there are so many non responders. Maybe they just need a lower dose (and most probably keep raising dose if they don't feel anything).

    There had to be a negative feedback somewhere. I wonder what long term implications of this downregulation are. Could be very bad news, phosphocreatine depletion in the brain, for instance, is linked to depression I believe.
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    Question

    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    There had to be a negative feedback somewhere. I wonder what long term implications of this downregulation are. Could be very bad news, phosphocreatine depletion in the brain, for instance, is linked to depression I believe.
    Interesting.

    I'm not so sure that the downregulation itself would initiate a depletion of endogenous creatine, but it would definitely deplete the amounts that we are trying to elevate.
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    Thumbs up

    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    The evidence is interesting to say the least (I presented that study to des). Even though the evidence within this study (as well as others) is inconclusive, it should make people think twice about supplementing creatine every day.

    IMO.... CrT downregulation, likely applies to healthy individuals as well.
    Interesting thread No Hype!!! I just learned alot about creatine supplementation by reading your thread & the one mentioned above.

    Thanks!
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    Originally Posted by gfriedel View Post
    Interesting thread No Hype!!! I just learned alot about creatine supplementation by reading your thread & the one mentioned above.

    Thanks!
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Interesting.

    I'm not so sure that the downregulation itself would initiate a depletion of endogenous creatine, but it would definitely deplete the amounts that we are trying to elevate.
    It seems that dietary creatine is necessary for "normal" endogenous levels:

    1: Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Nov;35(11):1946-55. Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Effect of creatine and weight training on muscle creatine and performance in vegetarians.

    Burke DG, Chilibeck PD, Parise G, Candow DG, Mahoney D, Tarnopolsky M.

    Department of Human Kinetics, St. Francis Xavier University, Antigonish, Nova Scotia, Canada. dburke@stfx.ca

    PURPOSE: To compare the change in muscle creatine, fiber morphology, body composition, hydration status, and exercise performance between vegetarians and nonvegetarians with 8 wk of creatine supplementation and resistance training. METHODS: Eighteen VG and 24 NV subjects (19-55 yr) were randomly assigned (double blind) to four groups: VG + creatine (VGCr, N=10), VG + placebo (VGPl, N=8), NV + creatine (NVCr, N=12), and NV + placebo (NVPl, N=12). Before and at the end of the study, muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis m, body composition was assessed by DXA, and strength was assessed using 1-RM bench press and leg press. Subjects participated in the same 8-wk resistance-training program. Creatine dosage was based on lean tissue mass (0.25 g.kg(-1) LTM.d(-1) x 7 d; 0.0625 g.kg(-1) LTM.d(-1) x 49 d). RESULTS: Biopsy samples indicated that total creatine (TCr=free Cr + PCr) was significantly lower in VG compared with NV at baseline (VG=117 mmol.kg(-1); NV=130 mmol.kg(-1); P<0.05). For Cr subjects, there was a greater increase in PCr, TCr, bench-press strength, isokinetic work, Type II fiber area, and whole-body lean tissue compared with subjects on placebo (P<0.05). Vegetarians who took Cr had a greater increase in TCr, PCr, lean tissue, and total work performance than nonvegetarians who took Cr (P<0.05). The change in muscle TCr was significantly correlated with initial muscle TCr, and the change in lean tissue mass and exercise performance. These findings confirm an ergogenic effect of Cr during resistance training and suggest that subjects with initially low levels of intramuscular Cr (vegetarians) are more responsive to supplementation.

    Publication Types:

    * Clinical Trial
    * Randomized Controlled Trial
    * Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't


    PMID: 14600563 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    This would seem to indicate that transporter is upregulated in vegetarians but we can only theorize. I haven't read full text yet though for details.

    EDIT: Didn't make my point obvious here to those who might be lost, I am wondering to what extent supplementing creatine daily at normal to high levels longterm would downregulate transporter and what would happen after stopping supplementation, transporter downregulation could stop normal dietary absorption and result in lower endogenous levels. To what extent? Who knows.
    Last edited by fitnecise; 06-22-2007 at 09:05 PM.
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    We can't forget AGAT or GATM, either, involved in creatine synthesis and are downregulated with supplementation:

    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/97/3/852

    This is interesting:

    In summary, the present results for the first time confirm in humans that oral creatine supplementation in doses of 5–20 g/day is related to a reduction in circulating GAA levels, suggesting that endogenous creatine synthesis is chronically (up to 5 mo) suppressed at the level of the transamidinase reaction catalyzed by AGAT. Additionally, these data suggest that creatine biosynthesis repression leads to enhanced utilization of arginine as a substrate for secondary guanidino compound pathways.
    Since creatine is an energy substrate it is probably more "flexible" and will adapt faster
    Last edited by fitnecise; 06-22-2007 at 09:19 PM.
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    Another important note from that study ^

    Analogy with animal studies would suggest that the latter phenomenon is predominant because reduction of AGAT activity is observed not within hours but only within days after the start of creatine supplementation (9). Therefore, future studies will have to determine the exact time course of downregulation of creatine biosynthesis in humans. The creatine supplementation regimen employed in the present study (1-wk loading phase with 20 g/day and a subsequent maintenance dose of 5 g/day) is routinely used by athletes and patients, on the basis of scientific evidence (13, 27). We now suggest that such creatine supplementation regimen downregulates endogenous creatine biosynthesis within 1 wk and as long as supplementation is continued.
    Could be another support for non daily supplementation, so as not to "push too hard" so to speak against homeostasis. Probably gets downregulated either way to go to other mechanisms (like arginine) once saturated, but then what is the long term result of that?
    Last edited by fitnecise; 06-22-2007 at 09:33 PM.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    I'm not so sure that the downregulation itself would initiate a depletion of endogenous creatine, but it would definitely deplete the amounts that we are trying to elevate.
    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    It seems that dietary creatine is necessary for "normal" endogenous levels:
    Maybe in vegetarians, but as far as I am aware of.... healthy individuals synthesize creatine within the liver.


    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    EDIT: Didn't make my point obvious here to those who might be lost, I am wondering to what extent supplementing creatine daily at normal to high levels longterm would downregulate transporter and what would happen after stopping supplementation, transporter downregulation could stop normal dietary absorption and result in lower endogenous levels. To what extent? Who knows.
    I see your point though.
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    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    We can't forget AGAT or GATM, either, involved in creatine synthesis and are downregulated with supplementation:

    http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/97/3/852

    This is interesting:



    Since creatine is an energy substrate it is probably more "flexible" and will adapt faster
    ^^^^ Beat me to it. ^^^^
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    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    I wonder what long term implications of this downregulation are.
    I wonder if there are any evident indicators of CrT downregulation?
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    Creatine works, it's cheap, and it isn't going to shut your damn body down. Creatine isn't all it's cracked up to be by the public, but it's effective.
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    Originally Posted by Dark_Warrior View Post
    Creatine works, it's cheap, and it isn't going to shut your damn body down. Creatine isn't all it's cracked up to be by the public, but it's effective.
    Thank you for this important contribution in the science forum. Can you tell me what date & time I am going to perish? Reps if you get it right.
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    Originally Posted by fitnecise View Post
    Thank you for this important contribution in the science forum. Can you tell me what date & time I am going to perish? Reps if you get it right.
    .... You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to fitnecise again.
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    Originally Posted by Dark_Warrior View Post
    Creatine works, it's cheap, and it isn't going to shut your damn body down. Creatine isn't all it's cracked up to be by the public, but it's effective.
    I think you may have missed the word.... "daily" in the title of this thread.
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    Tyrosine phosphorylation of the creatine transporter?

    Here's a study on creatine transporter expression/downregulation in response to creatine supplementation in animals during sepsis. I wonder if tyrosine phosphorylation of the creatine transporter can be a factor in sepsis-free subjects?



    "Thus, on the basis of the results presented in the current study and the data available in the literature, it is reasonable to hypothesize that extracellular Cr must be transported into the cells where accumulated Cr feedback inhibits c-Src-related tyrosine phosphorylation of the CreaT. Although the mechanism(s) by which the downregulatory effects on c-Src-related tyrosine phosphorylation of the CreaT after dietary Cr supplementation occur is unknown, we speculate that preaccumulation of intracellular Cr in muscle after oral Cr supplementation may cause acquired intrinsic alteration(s) in the control of myocellular energy metabolism that may trigger changes in intracellular signaling pathways by which the downregulatory effects on c-Src-related tyrosine phosphorylation of the CreaT after Cr supplementation occurs in skeletal muscle during sepsis. These remain to be defined and are the subjects of future investigations."

    "Although the physiological relevance of Cr supplementation's downregulatory effects on tyrosine phosphorylation of the CreaT during sepsis is not yet clear, it is obvious that myocellular CreaT function is tightly regulated and involves c-Src-related tyrosine phosphorylation during sepsis."

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/re...046.pdf?ck=nck
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 06-23-2007 at 04:30 AM.
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    1) The Science Section revival is so nice to see..lets keep it going

    2) I 100% agree with NO HYPE here, somewhere in this section I have a thread called "Creatine - are we taking too much", Its been ages since its been up front but I know I referenced the 30 day washout period, and saw no reason that taking 3-5g post workout, 3-4 times a week is likely plenty to max out our storage levels.

    Good thread NO HYPE.

    Edit - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=680102
    Last edited by Skigazzi; 06-23-2007 at 08:28 AM.
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    I didn't see this before, Dr. Tallon wrote an article on this subject:

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon2.htm

    I also vaguely remember a study on "long" term creatine supplementation and possible increased storage ability, but maybe it wasn't on humans. I'll see if I can find it.
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    Originally Posted by illestmiccheck1 View Post
    I liked creatine when I was on it. Wicked strength gains. I hated creatine when I was off it. Wicked strength loss. All in all, creatine isn't for me, I'll do without =]
    It's called leverage. You didn't miraculously gain and lose strength. You gained and lost leverage. Is the 5lbs in water weight worth the slight gain in lifting numbers? It's up to you.
    Last edited by Chrome Face; 06-23-2007 at 01:34 PM.
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