O/T - Bodyfat Percentages

[covert ash]

I know this is off topic, but I also know a lot of people that talk about what I'm about to discuss use this forum exclusively. Warning: this is a nit-picking rant on my part.

I keep reading about how people put on X amount of weight while maintaining the same bodyfat percentage and ultimately claiming or inferring how they did not put on any fat. This *MAY* be true assuming that the increase in water weight is what makes up the rest of the assumed lean mass gains.

However, I know most people only have access to calipers, scales and charts to measure bodyfat anyhow. So my question is, how is everyone so sure that when using X supplement/workout/nutrition program, that they did not put on any fat?

Let's not forget that a bodyfat percentage is exactly, just that; how many percentage points of your total body mass is fat. If your total bodyweight goes up and you maintain the same bodyfat percentage ( ) your bodyfat is going up proportionately!

Now if you were to put on weight while decreasing your bodyfat percentage, then you would not have have gained fat (and in some cases even lost some fat).

Or I could just be wrong and living in an upside down world. But for the most part, I'm not.

[wigglesjr]

[u5711]

You seem to have good points, but you really are "nit-picking."

For the most part, if someone is using the same calipers and methods, I can put a good amount of "stock" into what they're saying. However, the people who go solely on the mirror, well, that's hogwash basically. Sure the mirror is what matters, but when we try to make educated decisions, we shouldn't use a bunch of estimates because people's views of themselves change often.

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by u5711

You seem to have good points, but you really are "nit-picking."

For the most part, if someone is using the same calipers and methods, I can put a good amount of "stock" into what they're saying. However, the people who go solely on the mirror, well, that's hogwash basically. Sure the mirror is what matters, but when we try to make educated decisions, we shouldn't use a bunch of estimates because people's views of themselves change often.

Point well taken. I am a bit anal retentive at times.

I guess my main concern really is that it is quite misleading. More than anything we see it mentioned often in this forum when referring to any supplements, and even more specifically in threads dealing with PH's. To the unsuspecting newbie or misinformed semi-newbie, it can sound like if such products are consumed they can actually help lose fat and build muscle at the same time. (Just like a MuscleTech ad. OHHHH! )

But I definitely agree with you though. Someone who is able to reproduce accurate measurements consistantly is much more trustworthy than the average novice or mirror person.

In the end, it's all semantics and diction that I can't help but analize.

[meathead198]

Originally Posted by covert ash

Point well taken. I am a bit anal retentive at times.

I guess my main concern really is that it is quite misleading. More than anything we see it mentioned often in this forum when referring to any supplements, and even more specifically in threads dealing with PH's. To the unsuspecting newbie or misinformed semi-newbie, it can sound like if such products are consumed they can actually help lose fat and build muscle at the same time. (Just like a MuscleTech ad. OHHHH! )

But I definitely agree with you though. Someone who is able to reproduce accurate measurements consistantly is much more trustworthy than the average novice or mirror person.

In the end, it's all semantics and diction that I can't help but analize.

It's possible to gain LBM and lose a small amount of fat without any supplements.

A quick biochem lesson:

On your muscle and fat cells are "Glut-4 receptors" these receptors depict which nutrients fgo to muscle cells, and which to fat cells. exercise increases muscular glut 4 expression, whilst not affecting fat glut-4's. This means you shuttle a lot more nutrints to muscle cells, and starve fat cells when you eat around your workout.

I gained ~5lbs LBM and became visibly leaner in ~8weeks using/manipulating this nutrient partitioning effect.

Look up "carb cycling" on www.mindandmuscle.net

[whutevr]

covert you hit it right on the head.
You can't gain weight, maintaining the same bf% and claim it's only LBM gain.

[bigpump23]

Originally Posted by whutevr

covert you hit it right on the head.
You can't gain weight, maintaining the same bf% and claim it's only LBM gain.

yes you cane, I did a bulk cycle and took my bf before it was 10.2 i took it after and it was 10.2, that's with claipers AND the elertronic testing, I added 12 lbs and my bf stayed the same

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by meathead198

It's possible to gain LBM and lose a small amount of fat without any supplements.

Again, my main concern are the people pimping (more than anything) supplements with these kinds of claims.

I don't think it's impossible to lose fat and build muscle at the same time either. It defintiely requires a strong harmony between solid nutrition and training, while to a lesser extent, supplements.

That was the main point to my follow-up post.

Originally Posted by meathead198

I gained ~5lbs LBM and became visibly leaner in ~8weeks using/manipulating this nutrient partitioning effect.

Look up "carb cycling"

No doubt. I am familiar with carb cycling. I think most people can reap the benefits of both worlds if utilized correctly with the right training program.

However, (the part about being visibly leaner) this goes back to what u5711 and I agreed on: accurate quantitative bodyfat measurements are going to hold more water (no pun intended) as opposed to mirror measurements.

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by whutevr

covert you hit it right on the head.
You can't gain weight, maintaining the same bf% and claim it's only LBM gain.

Thank you! This is exactly it.

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by bigpump23

yes you cane, I did a bulk cycle and took my bf before it was 10.2 i took it after and it was 10.2, that's with claipers AND the elertronic testing, I added 12 lbs and my bf stayed the same

Do the math, bro.

Take 10.2% from your starting weight, and another 10.2% off your final weight. Are the results the same?

[bigpump23]

Originally Posted by covert ash

Do the math, bro.

Take 10.2% from your starting weight, and another 10.2% off your final weight. Are the results the same?

true, your right being 10.2 at 210 is not the same as being 10.2 at 222 but that doesn't necessarily mean i got fatter

[u5711]

Originally Posted by bigpump23

true, your right being 10.2 at 210 is not the same as being 10.2 at 222 but that doesn't necessarily mean i got fatter

Well, you most certainly did get fatter. You may not look fatter because it's proportional, but you still did acquire additional fat.

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by u5711

Well, you most certainly did get fatter. You may not look fatter because it's proportional, but you still did acquire additional fat.

Bingo!

Herein is where the misconception should be cleared.

[Nitrus3825]

Acually i believe that you can loose bodyfat and gain muscle, because as of 9 months ago i started lifting and weighed about 170 at 18% bodyfat (5"10). Now i weigh 165 at 8% bodyfat. I started off losing weight quickly as my streangth went up slowly... and finally when i hit 154 my weight started to slowly and i mean slowly climb until now where i am 165. It is possible but just a very VERY slow process.
Now i am going to bulk really hard to gain muscle fast and then cut, the way you are suposed to do it. I just hope that it works a lot faster then my old way!

[zachattack43]

thanks covert ash, i dont know i could not see that. a rep point for you

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by Nitrus3825

Acually i believe that you can loose bodyfat and gain muscle, because as of 9 months ago i started lifting and weighed about 170 at 18% bodyfat (5"10). Now i weigh 165 at 8% bodyfat. I started off losing weight quickly as my streangth went up slowly... and finally when i hit 154 my weight started to slowly and i mean slowly climb until now where i am 165. It is possible but just a very VERY slow process.
Now i am going to bulk really hard to gain muscle fast and then cut, the way you are suposed to do it. I just hope that it works a lot faster then my old way!

Ah! What it's like to have newbie gains all over again. Seriously, that is a fantastic turnover in a 9 month period.

While I don't disagree about the possbility to lose fat and build muscle at the same time, your results are exceptional because of the conditions in which they occured. Generally speaking, the first 1-2 years in anyone's training experience will produce the most dramatic results, which can allow the trainee to be able to achieve both goals at the same time.

All the same, your results are still rather impressive, even for a newbie. Good luck on your upcoming bulk cycle.

[covert ash]

Originally Posted by zachattack43

thanks covert ash, i dont know i could not see that. a rep point for you

Yeah, sometimes we miss these things when we hear it talked about by other people on a regular basis.

Thanks for the vote in confidence, bro. (Or five. )