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  1. #1
    Registered User Glockmeister's Avatar
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    How do you feel about shirts/suits?

    I often think about powerlifters using bench shirts, etc. I would imagine its kinda cheating isnt it? After all, if you are not ussing raw power and using some kind of aid, its not really all you doing the work. Is there anyone else here who feels the same way?
    " better to sweat in the gym, than bleed in the streets"
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    CALL ME CITY twista's Avatar
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    IMO, it's just the nature of the beast. it's an aspect of the sport, be it controversial, but a major factor nontheless.
    powerlifter/strongman

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    But I am still thirsty..."
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  3. #3
    Registered User AJ Roberts's Avatar
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    Thane Harrison wrote this for the nazbar forum, but i couldn't have said it any better

    "Why are all these people afraid of gear? “You didn’t get that lift, your gear did”; do you know how many times I hear that ****. Dr. Judd attempted to answer this question in an article in PLUSA a couple of months ago. In my opinion, he did a piss poor job. Someone (I think it is Louie) has a famous thing with “a triple denim and a bottle of test that says that the shirt and the test have yet to lift anything”. He is right, they haven’t don’t **** alone, they are missing the lifter. You can pile on all the layers of material that you want, but with out a lifter, the bar ain’t moving. Some say the extra layers will give the lifter the ability to lift more. Here is a test, go put on 2 double denims, can you bench more than you can with only 1 on? No, because if you actually did get the bar to touch, you would never get it up because of the incredible tonnage it would take to get it down. So the extra layers did nothing for you. I agree with Bill C. on this one, after 2 layers it’s a waste of time.

    Let even up the score a little for the larger crowd. If you want to make the gear game fair, the line will be drawn at 198 pounds. Everyone under 181 pounds gets single ply, who cares what type of material, so long as it is single layer. Knee wraps get cut off at 2.5 meters. Wrist wraps, who cares? Everyone over 181.5 pounds gets 2 plies if they choose so; material does not matter. Knee wraps are allowed to be 3.5 meters. Why is this fair? Take a 150-pound lifter, put him/her in a single ply poly squat suit. They would get all kinds of spring from this suit. Now put my 300-pound ass in the same suit, nothing. Here is another one to try. Wrap your knee wrap around your knee as hard as you can, now bend it. Kinda hard to do without a bar on your back. Now wrap the same wrap around your waist; lot different isn’t it. I understand this may seem like an extreme way to make my point, but that is what I am trying to do, make a point. Since we are talking about knee wraps, is it fair that the 150-pound guy gets the same size wraps as me. My knees are huge; they can get almost 2 more wraps than I can. This is why they should cut them at 2.5 meters for 198 pounds and under. I have nothing against the 181-pound and under classes; I was just using it as an example. So now that all that has been said.

    Who cares what you wear when you lift, so long as you are lifting. If you do not like the rules of your federation, you still have many options. When the BOSS suit came out, first it was legal, then banned, then legal, then banned. In the process of the federation presidents making up their minds, a lot of these suits were purchased. Instead of getting pissed off, quitting the federation and being stupid, a lot of us contacted our president, and eventually changed his mind (making it legal again). This is what is great about having all the different federations. If you are not happy with the one you are in, you can quit, change or contact your president and talk to him/her. The presidents are people just like you and me, some retired lifters, some still lift; the point is the majority will listen. Your state chairperson can also help. On the flip side, we all need to do our own part. Whether it is by becoming a judge, state chair, or being the guy that brings the Gatorade to the meet, do something. When you see the guys at the other end of the gym staring at you with a bent bar on your back, go talk to them. Get them interested, if that is what they want. When you see the guy on the bench next to you screwing up every part of the lift, go help the poor guy, don’t just stand there and laugh at him. The image of the powerlifters being the big, mean, loud guys that mess up the gym with chalk and leaving all the 100 pound plates on the bars is only going to go away if we make it go away. Some gyms don’t like us and never will, that’s fine, don’t lift there. If that is a problem and now you don’t have anywhere to train, stop crying about it and make a place. We made a fully functional gym, not a garage gym, but a full gym for around $1000.00. We currently have over 20 pieces of equipment and over 1400 pounds of weight. How, we wanted it so bad, we let nothing stand in the way of building it. It only cost a few dollars, some beer and a good welder to make equipment. Just don’t forget your family if you plan on doing this, they too need some of your time. If you do happen to have a family, remember that they need to come first. I have made the mistake of putting the gym and training before my wife and son, which was the worst thing to do. If your family is not happy with what you do, they will make you not happy about it, so either change their mind or quit doing it, because what would be the point of continuing?

    Now back to the gear debate. Do you really think that anybody is going to sponsor a raw meet? Who is going to do it, Gatorade? Gear is here to stay my friends and if you cant deal with it, maybe you need start your own federation; good luck getting sponsors. When Tiger Woods starting using newly developed clubs, no one said a word. When the baseball was changed a few years ago to the new tighter windings that have been scientifically proven to go further went hit, no one said a word. If everyone has the ability to wear the same gear, how is this cheating, as our wonderful Dr. Judd would say it is. Gear serves many different purposes from safety to performance enhancement. Can I honestly say that someone could bench 900lbs without a bench shirt, no, not in our current time, but someday, why not? This sport is evolving just as everything else does in our world. Yes, that squat suit may give you 100lbs extra on your lift, but so what. If you don’t like the fact that you cant do that, you still have options as I mentioned earlier. All the gear only boils down to one thing, someone wanting to win. I have a huge desire to beat not only myself but also, everyone on the platform; therefore I am going to take advantage of every possible chance I can get to win. I know that you are only supposed to be there to beat your own records and yourself, but who are you trying to lie to, you know that you want to win that trophy as bad as everyone else does. If gear can help you get there, use it dummy! Like I mentioned earlier, gear is not going to lift anything by itself, you still need to do the work.

    If you take a man that can bench 700lbs in an open back double denim shirt, do you honestly think he did less work than the raw bencher who benches 400lbs. You cannot just throw on gear and think it is going to add weight to your lifts; you have to learn how to use it. Learning how to use your gear properly takes time, patients, and a ton of work. Chances are the 700lbs bencher did twice as much work as the 400lbs bencher did. You still have to lock the weight out at the top and as far as I have seen there is no gear out there that will do that for you. Look at the life span of the 400lb raw bencher. His shoulders are going to be gone in a matter of years; he’ll be lucky to compete for 5 years like this. The gear adds a degree of safety and longevity to your career when worn and used correctly. Some people choose not to train in gear, some choose to wait until a few weeks until the meet, and others train in it all the time. It is all going to depend on what style of training you choose to follow. If you were going to lift in a denim shirt I would strongly recommend at the very least 10 weeks of training in the shirt before a meet. You have to learn how the shirt is going to change your groove, this takes time. This is where the 400lb raw bencher and the 700lbs shirted bencher are going to differ in training styles. More than likely the 700lbs bencher is going to warm up to 400lbs without his shirt, then put it on and start really training. No matter how much gear you have on, 700lbs is 700lbs, you still have to not only move it but also control it. Think about how your body is designed, your shoulders and hips have got to be some of the weakest joints in your body when it comes to their design. You basically have a bone with a small ball on the side of it that attaches to a socket but the pressure is creating a shearing force against where the ball connects to the bone. Why in the world would you not want to protect that area when lifting? Yes, some raw training is needed but gear is going to have to play a part somewhere down the line.

    With all this said I believe I have expressed what I wanted. Incase you were not paying attention let me make it real simple for you. Keep your training simple, you can try every new workout out there and never gain anything. Only you know what will help you. Our sport is growing so fast that I don’t think anyone one person can keep up with it. Do your research, study, watch the stronger lifters, and ask questions. If it is no longer working, change it, if it is still working, leave it alone. Most importantly, lift for you, not the other people in the gym. Wear what you want to, lift where you want to, and how you want to.

    No matter what road you take or what sport you choose there is always going to be turbulence. You can try whatever you like but the obstacles will come. Many things will come between you and your dreams. It takes a champion to move past them, over them or what ever it takes to get through them. Good luck.

    KEEP AN OPEN MIND…

    Thane T. Harrison Jr.
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  4. #4
    Registered User johnnyironboard's Avatar
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    If you are competing it is part of the game. If not competing than IMO you are kidding yourself.
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    Registered User Darracq's Avatar
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    re

    The shirts and suits are here to stay, I like them myself, my shoulder`s dont hurt like they used to. I only got about 30 pounds out of my shirt when i got it. I think you see big increses out of shirts because people train in them and your strength increases faster in a shirt. I think you can recoup faster when using a shirt. What i have seen is my shoulders dont feel so tired days after i bench.
    Your not going to see someone that has never put on a shirt and get a hugh increse out of it, unless your just have outstanding tricep strength. You see people getting 150 pounds out of a shirt but they have been lifting in them shirts for a long time.

    Myself i want to bench and i want to have some shoulders left when im old LOL. With my long skinny frame im not build to bench but i love it.
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  6. #6
    Registered User BigWoopieFizz's Avatar
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    Are using shirts and suits cheating? The truth is, NO, it's not cheating. You see, in powerlifting there are RAW divisions and equipped divisions. Are using steroids cheating? Once again, NO. There are tested and non-tested divisions and feds. When you compete against guys wearing the same equip or lack of, the odds are even.
    Now there are SOME cheaters; guys who compete in drug tested divisions/feds but are taking drugs. THOSE guys are cheating. I do feel, however, that feds need better rulings on equipment. I DON'T think it's fair for a guy in a single ply poly shirt to compete against a guy in a double denim shirt.
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  7. #7
    Registered User AJ Roberts's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BigWoopieFizz
    I DON'T think it's fair for a guy in a single ply poly shirt to compete against a guy in a double denim shirt.
    If the guy in the single ply is competing in a fed that allows multi ply then it is fair. Just like someone who is drug free competing in a non-tested meet.
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  8. #8
    The hang clean master ReD3784's Avatar
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    Its cheating IMO. I go as raw as i can no straps, shirts or anything i even deadlift with no shoes!
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    Registered User 2THICK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ReD3784
    Its cheating IMO. I go as raw as i can no straps, shirts or anything i even deadlift with no shoes!
    I am assuming you are not a competitve powerlifter. If you where you would not feel this way.

    Gear is part of the sport. Either do it and accept it, compete raw or shut the **** up. I am so sick of people bitching about shirts and suits and 98% of the people that do have never competed nor will they compete. You go to a meet compete raw and come back and add your .02 then when you come in dead last. This is a powerlifting forum and gear is 100% powerlifting.
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    Registered User johnnyironboard's Avatar
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    Talking

    Originally Posted by ReD3784
    Its cheating IMO. I go as raw as i can no straps, shirts or anything i even deadlift with no shoes!
    Deadlifting with no shoes is cheating- you don't have to pull the bar as far.
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    Registered User BigWoopieFizz's Avatar
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    ha ha. I needed a good chuckle before bed.
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  12. #12
    Registered User beemrmem3's Avatar
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    My question is. What is the point of a bench shirt? Why not just ban all tight fitting clothing. Why do people want aids? I understand its fair cause everyone can use one. But it just seems pointless to me. Something to use so everyones numbers can be inflated.
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    Registered User 2THICK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by beemrmem3
    My question is. What is the point of a bench shirt? Why not just ban all tight fitting clothing. Why do people want aids? I understand its fair cause everyone can use one. But it just seems pointless to me. Something to use so everyones numbers can be inflated.
    One word, "longevity"
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    Registered User midian's Avatar
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    I'm getting tired of this.

    The biomechanical research that goes into sports like soccer, baseball, cricket, tennis, .... is endless. Do you actually think a tenis player can hit at those speeds using old rackets? NO HE CAN'T. Soccer players got specific shoes for their position on the field and they have a better performance with these shoes. The list goes on, but noone conciders these as cheating even though there are many teams and players that can afford this type of equipment and there aint exacly a different fedaration for it.

    Gear is the same, yes is enhances the performance, so it increases the weight you lift. It's just a more direct effect than all those other sports. So if lifting with better equipment is cheating than allmost ALL other atheletes cheat.
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    Registered User beemrmem3's Avatar
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    That is the worst point ever. In baseball you need a bat to play. In tennis you need a rachet to play. To bench press you dont need a bench shirt to play/compete. How are you going to hit a ball without a bat. How are you going to dunk without a basketball. How do you bech without a shirt. Easy. Grab the bar and do it. Sorry that is the worst example ever.
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    Originally Posted by beemrmem3
    That is the worst point ever. In baseball you need a bat to play. In tennis you need a rachet to play. To bench press you dont need a bench shirt to play/compete. How are you going to hit a ball without a bat. How are you going to dunk without a basketball. How do you bech without a shirt. Easy. Grab the bar and do it. Sorry that is the worst example ever.
    OK.....You can make a hit in football without pads but doing this time and time again will destroy a body and shorten a career to almost nothing. Same thing as high level bench pressing, if done raw time and time agian the strain is great on the body and you simply will not last. Last April I tore my pec major going heavy raw....Now I will not go extremely heavy without a shirt agian. Yes they are for performance, but just as much as that they are for protection.


    BTW...Dont even get me started about the unfair advantages of those polyester shirts and getting those strikes in bowling.
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    Registered User Klay01's Avatar
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    if u cant lift the weight then dont go buy a shirt so u can
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    Registered User 2THICK's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Klay01
    if u cant lift the weight then dont go buy a shirt so u can
    And how many records do you hold?
    Better yet, are you even a powerlifter?

    This thread is old, it is Bull****, this is the powerlifting section, if you dont like what goes with that then just stay the **** out. Put on your speedo, go up on stage and I'll put my shirt on and do the same.
    Last edited by 2THICK; 11-18-2004 at 09:18 PM.
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    Registered User 2THICK's Avatar
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    I guess by now I have answered the original question on how I feel about them. I have said my .02. I am done with this.
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    Registered User midian's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by beemrmem3
    That is the worst point ever. In baseball you need a bat to play. In tennis you need a rachet to play. To bench press you dont need a bench shirt to play/compete. How are you going to hit a ball without a bat. How are you going to dunk without a basketball. How do you bech without a shirt. Easy. Grab the bar and do it. Sorry that is the worst example ever.
    Then why don't they just play with the old rackets? If it's all the same ....

    It's equipment and sports, shirts and suites are powerlifting equipment so DEAL WITH IT!
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  21. #21
    Registered User aharman1116's Avatar
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    shirts/suits/wraps/etc are a part of powerlifting today and accomadations for people that don't wanna use gear are in affect ie raw meets or feds. Alot of feds do have regulations on what we can use as far as equipment so everyone is on the same page.
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    Registered User phreak's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by 2THICK
    And how many records do you hold?
    Better yet, are you even a powerlifter?

    This thread is old, it is Bull****, this is the powerlifting section, if you dont like what goes with that then just stay the **** out. Put on your speedo, go up on stage and I'll put my shirt on and do the same.
    Validity of an argument is not measured by how much one can lift. Also, why shouldn't raw lifters be allowed to dissent? It was the lobbying of lifters to allow equipment in the first place. The same can be done by gear's opponents.


    And why do you assume anyone who does not want to use equipment isn't a PLer? (because according to you I should put on posing trunks) There are also a lot of lifters who want to lift raw and who don't have a (rather childish) need to beat others. Lifters who are trying to be the best they can be, regardless of what others lift.



    (and yes, I competed in a previous life. Both raw and equiped.)
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    Registered User sculli's Avatar
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    why I want to get one

    I am living proof about the longevity of the 400+ pound raw bencher being limited w/out a shirt. Several years ago I was benching 420 raw. I ****ed up my shoulders really bad from all that heavy raw benching. It was so bad I haven't been able to go for years and am just getting back into it now. I've had to train in the 8-10 rep range and basically train like a bodybuilder ever since that injury. Well, I'm sick of that so now I'm powerlifting again. I know I will need some equipment soon once I start moving some heavier weights around or I'll get injured again. So when I get a shirt, I do not care if it adds even 1 pound to my max as long as it protects my shoulders. Only someone who's been injured like that can probably understand.
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    Registered User ASSMASTER's Avatar
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    its like in the track and field sports, they make RUNNING SHOES that allow the runner to run faster and they have all types of special designs, and clothing they can buy to help reduce there time. OBVIOUSLY with RUNNING SHOES your gonna run a little bit faster than BARE FOOT or with WORK BOOTS OR SNEAKERS. The running shoes will give u an edge and knock off maybe a fraction of a second or more, but in a sport where everyone is whereing running shoes, it would only make sense to buy running shoes yourself. Same goes with powerlifting gear, it will help to optimize your human performance just like the running shoes do, it will add a few pounds here and there to your total, but its not like if you use equipment your all of a suddent gonna be an 800pd squatter, 600 pd bencher, and 800 pd deadlifter, thats the illusion that these IGNORANT GYM WEENIES get
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    Registered User phreak's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sculli
    Only someone who's been injured like that can probably understand.
    A scar war? Fine: 2 chronically inflamed rotator cuffs (1.5 years left, 2.5 years right) and a torn pec. Both NOT the result of benching raw, but benching WRONG.
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    Registered User sculli's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by phreak
    A scar war? Fine: 2 chronically inflamed rotator cuffs (1.5 years left, 2.5 years right) and a torn pec. Both NOT the result of benching raw, but benching WRONG.
    lol no scar wars please.
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    stopper of airways kbickham's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BigWoopieFizz
    Are using shirts and suits cheating? The truth is, NO, it's not cheating. You see, in powerlifting there are RAW divisions and equipped divisions. Are using steroids cheating? Once again, NO. There are tested and non-tested divisions and feds. When you compete against guys wearing the same equip or lack of, the odds are even.
    Now there are SOME cheaters; guys who compete in drug tested divisions/feds but are taking drugs. THOSE guys are cheating. I do feel, however, that feds need better rulings on equipment. I DON'T think it's fair for a guy in a single ply poly shirt to compete against a guy in a double denim shirt.
    I personally think using gear is cheating yourself. From a powerlifting standpoint i would say no. I go out and bust my ass deadlifting because I want to be the best I can make myself, bot was some cycle of test or deca can make me. However if someone chooses to use it, (I personally think it is the easy way out), but that is there decision and it is still 'their' body doing the lifting. each man to his own i guess
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  28. #28
    Da BOSS bLeDZePPeLiN69's Avatar
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    Learning how to properly bench shirted has helped me reduce pain while benching raw (ALL about the technique). Learning how to deal with a super-stiff squat suit has taught me to sit back. The gear teaches me better form the more I use it.

    In conclusion, I support gear, but in general, I support anyone who is man (or woman) enough to go on a stage and lift because they love and live the sport.
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  29. #29
    Registered User xtremecondition's Avatar
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    I don't care about the shirts. If you are interested in competing, pick what you want. There are meets with gear, meets that are raw.

    I don't compete and never will. I have a friend who does. To me, all the people bitching about shirts have an issue with them because of their own ego. They are pissed because they train there ass off and are benching in the 200's or 300's, maybe even 400's. But when they see guys are benching 600 and up, they say "well, they are using shirts that lift it for them". WHATEVER!!! If your ego causes you to need to bench big numbers to brag about, compete in powerlifting and learn how to bench more!!! Otherwise, shut up and enjoy what you are doing without worrying what everyone else is doing. I'm perfectly happy with my 325 bench. I'm not trying to compete. Guys who wear shirts and bench 500+? Good for them. I'm glad they are acheiving the things they aspire to do. I don't feel any less proud of my own acheivments.

    One thing for sure with shirts though, is they protect the lifter. They keep the shoulder from getting ripped apart. Ever notice how bodybuilders tear their pecs more often than PL's these days? Its because PL's have learned to use protective gear (shirts) and technique that reduces stress on the pec insertions and shoulder joints. That's not cheating, its just plain smart.

    So if you have an issue with people who use shirts, get over it or leave the topic alone. It ain't going away, that's for sure.
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  30. #30
    AKA natplchamp315 NatPLingCHaMP's Avatar
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    I dont like bench shirts, but they are necesary to be competitive in the sport of powerlifting.

    do I think its right that a 300lb raw bencher can be beat by a 200lb raw bencher in a shirted bench comp. no. I think that is total bull**** because that 200lb raw bench isnt stronger then the other guy, he just had his shirt working for him. Powerlifting started as a RAW POWER sport. Now it is who can get more out of their shirt.

    Bruce
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