DEBATE: Max Ot v.s. GVT, HST & anything else!

[Max-Machine]

I'm thinking of combining different routines. I love max ot, but think that bodybuilding is more than just big muscles. A true bodybuilder is one who is fit in every area. Due to different injuries, I want to do high volume for legs, maybe arms and Max ot style for everything else. Anyone thought of this or tried it?

Also, due to the recent "debates" I've been involved in, this might be a good thread to sort of air your "opinions" on your fav. routine without polluting someone else's thread!

Anyone up for some lively debating?

[BIONIC MAN]

glad you started this we all can debate , my idea is heavy weight builds muscle. the pump is not muscle ,the burn is not muscle . overload of a muscle induces growth , cuts and being ripped is from your diet. all the body builders mass up during the off season becuase being too lean makes it hard to build the most muscle. ok max-ot says do low reps ,there guys follow this program and have won titles like IFFB pro . which is hard VERY hard as a natural, mike mentzer a proponet of hit said do low reps and heavy weight .he was the first bb,er to have a perfect score in a contest. ARTHUR JONES inventor of the famous hammer strength equipment , was for low reps and had guys like boyer coe,mike mentzer train on his equipment with low reps. arnold when he started training for t3 was told by his doctor not to lift heavy like he did early in his career becuase of his heart valve replacement, so he had to pump. you can gain pumping i agree,but the greatest quickest gains come from heavy weight. and like it or not there does come a time when you cannot lift as heavy as you did at 25,35,40. but in no way should you start pumping, be happy lifting heavy even if its 40 pounds less. QUOTE-IRONMAN MAGAZINE JULY 2003-OLD TIME TACTICS FOR NEW AGE MUSCLE-the modern era of bloated ,steroid induced pump artists who will do anything for a extra inch of muscle has almost killed off the sport of old time body building. there was a time when body builders cared about being strong. a time when ,if you were going to have muscle you better have the strrenth to back them up as well. tactic 1dont go by the mirror ,go by the weight on the bar. while bodybuilders of the past enjoyed the benefits of getting a pump ,they worried much more about increasing there strength .its the reason reg park used methods like 5 sets of five.ten sets of three is better than three sets of ten becuase it enables you to apply maximum force on every rep. un-quote. here,s what dorian yates says about bicep training flex june 2003-limit total exercises per biceps workout to three , perform three working sets of six to eight reps with a fairly heavyweight . ok heavy weight builds muscle ,moderate weight builds muscle,light weight builds muscle . but heavy builds it quicker.

[Max-Machine]

Well Mr. Bionic, in this thread you will find me in agreement with you on this issue. Max Ot is really just a hyped up version of the old time hard gainers routine.

HOWEVER, I'm not entirely sure what the term "overload" means exactly. I still do not understand how it is that a 5 rep set will overload the muscles and a 10 rep set does not.

In order for a muscle to grow it must be forced to do something it has not done before. A heavy set of 10 will fit this criteria. In fact, a good ol' time routine is the progressive system. When you can perform 3 sets of 10 with an exercize, you add weight. Surely, this is progressive overload!

Max Ot is sort of based on this, you just don't go past 6 reps. In my case tho, it seems that whenever I hit 250 lbs in anything, something let's go! Some weird injury pops up that sidelines me for what seems forever......

That's why I'm thinking of mixing up different routines ......but yes, heavy weight builds faster ( I think....it's very individualistic), but many people have done very well doing sets of 10.

When I have done a "sets of 10" routine, I always feel like I'm getting in better shape. With max ot, it does not feel that way.

Besides, what's wrong with your body becoming adapt at getting rid of lactic acid? Jack La Lane had a helluva physique and yet could do amazing feats of endurance like a 1000 pushups & a 1000 chin-ups!

[A.FreeRadical]

Hi Max-Machine,

re""HOWEVER, I'm not entirely sure what the term "overload" means exactly. I still do not understand how it is that a 5 rep set will overload the muscles and a 10 rep set does not."

I think a 10 rep set will overload, but it will overload at a lower weight than if you did 4-6. Max-OT wants you to use maximum intensity, maximum weight for 2-3 sets at 4-6 reps. Why? I think it is a strength thing. Powerlifters do low reps and heavy intense lifting. At the other extreme, real high reps / low weight can make you hard, but it isn't going to make you real strong or big.

6 months ago I quit smoking. I decided to take up lifting after a 20 year rest on the sofa in front of the tv. Besides lifting, I am doing an hour of cardio per day and I am eating very healthy. I am 59 years old. I haven't felt so good since I quit lifting when I was 39.

Prior to Max-OT, I conditioned for 2 months on machines doing isolated exercises. After that I did 1 month of squats, deadlifts and benches with heavier weights. I am now on my 4th week of the MAX-OT program. I have added 5-10 lb on my Deadlift, Squat, Bench each week for all four weeks. I feel very strong and always go to 6 reps on all sets. I like the routine, but I am worndering if my muscles and strength are going beyond my joint's and tendon's ability to recoup. I have developed a slight case of tennis elbow while working on my forearms and I notice shooting pains in some of my muscle at night.

All that being said, I do agree with you. I think after the Max-OT I will alternate with a higher rep lower weight rountine for a few months just to hone my muscle gains.

[Max-Machine]

Hi Max-Machine,

re""HOWEVER, I'm not entirely sure what the term "overload" means exactly. I still do not understand how it is that a 5 rep set will overload the muscles and a 10 rep set does not."

I think a 10 rep set will overload, but it will overload at a lower weight than if you did 4-6. Max-OT wants you to use maximum intensity, maximum weight for 2-3 sets at 4-6 reps. Why? I think it is a strength thing. Powerlifters do low reps and heavy intense lifting. At the other extreme, real high reps / low weight can make you hard, but it isn't going to make you real strong or big.



All that being said, I do agree with you. I think after the Max-OT I will alternate with a higher rep lower weight rountine for a few months just to hone my muscle gains.

It's the degree of intensity. Obviously, a heavier weight will require much more effort. But, sometimes I think it's easier to do a heavy set of 5 than a heavy set of 10. A heavy set of 10 is much more taxing on your lungs. I've watched Tom Platz doing 23 reps with 500 lbs in the squat. No one can say that a heavy set of 5 reps is the only way to build! I'd be more than happy to be able todo 23 ass-to-the-grass reps ala` Platz with 200lbs!

Once I hit a certain weight (250-300lbs.) in anything, something seems to let go on me. Building muscle involves more than just overloading your muscles. You have to develop tendon & joint strength. If your strength develops beyond your structure's ability to handle it, something's gonna break!

There are certain people who can handle heavy weight all the time with no joint problems. God bless them!

The point is, muscle can still be built using lighter weights. Bill Pearl use to say he could tell the differenc between a "Pumper's" physique v.s. someone who used heavy weights. If you check out a powerlifters muscles's, they seem to be much more "dense".....

There's a lot more to this game than what AST is claiming.....and a lot of different ways to do it.

I want to know what's wrong with doing sets of 10 for my legs, and max ot for shoulders? Or chest?

[Max-Machine]

.....BTW----I wouldn't mind having a "Pumpers" physique!

Do you really think anyone is gonna say," Oh no, he got that way doing sets of 10---poor guy, shoulda stuck to the heavy stuff!"

[Max-Machine]

. you can gain pumping i agree,but the greatest quickest gains come from heavy weight. and like it or not there does come a time when you cannot lift as heavy as you did at 25,35,40. but in no way should you start pumping, be happy lifting heavy even if its 40 pounds less.

. ok heavy weight builds muscle ,moderate weight builds muscle,light weight builds muscle . but heavy builds it quicker.

Some guys can lift heavy in their old age. John Grimmick was doing squats with 400 lbs. @ age 84!

Not sure if heavy weight builds it quicker. How do you prove that? What about muscle density? Ever think that heavy weight gives you a more solid look than say from pumping up?

You still get big by pumping up....you just don't have that dense look. Check out the light-heavy powerlifters....some awesome physiques in that category!

[supadave]

My opinion is they are all good and work. The only way to find out which style is best for you and what you want to accomplish is to try them all. Me personally, I like to make my own routines from different things I've done in the past that worked for me.

"I want to know what's wrong with doing sets of 10 for my legs, and max ot for shoulders? Or chest?"

not a thing IMO. High reps for legs work well.

[Charger]

It's the degree of intensity. Obviously, a heavier weight will require much more effort. But, sometimes I think it's easier to do a heavy set of 5 than a heavy set of 10.

Thank you! Good point!! I read all the time how hard MAx-ot is and how intense it is.I am sorry but having done both for a couple years now, I know Max-ot is a piece of cake compared to GVT. It does not take a great deal of intensity to lift a heavy weight. Sure it does involve a maximum amount of effort to do it, but that is not what I call intensity.
Pushing past a sticking point is intensity. Feeling like you cannot do another set and pushing paste the point of failure is intensity.
You cannot do that with heavy weight.
When I do Max-ot I know I can take a 3 min break between sets for max recovery since we know, Max-ot is all about the weight.
GVT for example is just the opposite. With GVT you know from the last rep from the previous set you only have 1 min before having to perform another set. When you get close to failure like your 8th set of squats, your drenched in sweat, your heart is pumping, your lunges are burning not to mention your legs saying I can't do it,then you do another set, that is intensity.
Use biceps curls as another example. Using heavy weight, I reach a point of failure much sooner. Doing GVT, you need max intensity to get past the pain/burn you are feeling. You don't reach failure until the last sets but in between you are having to deal with the pain, that is intensity.

Now as to which routine is better, both are. I would not suggest to anyone they only do GVT or Max-ot. I like both. In fact I do Max-ot more than I do GVT. GVT is brutal and it can get boring if you have ever tried it. Boring in the sense you are so limited in the variety of movement.
And by the way, you will gain strength and endurance while doing GVT. Your Max strength will go down slightly after doing 6 weeks of GVT but you will be shoched to learn that after going back on Max-ot, you will quickly reack your old max and be able to break past a wall you may have hit.

Also, for you Max-ot guys, you will also notice if you look over the routine that you can do 10x6 with heavier weight. This is what I perfer except on legs. I like the 10x10 on legs.

[Charger]

Here is another routine that I tried for the first time this year that I give high marks. If you are bored with the same ol exercises and routine, give this a go. I got it from the PL section and it has alot of compound power lifting movements in it. It is a killer. I was unable to do the 6 day a week that it calls for the last 2 weeks, opted to only do legs twice and do 5 days, Mon-Fri.
Here it is:

Hypertrophy Program
Week 1-2 (regular training)
Upper day 1:
Bench Press 3x6
Close grip 3x6
Push down 3x6
DB shrugs 3x6
Weighted pull ups 3xF
Military Press 3x6
Preacher Curls 3x6

Upper day 2:
Incline Press 3x6
Fly’s 3x6
Triceps extensions 3x6
Barbell Shrug 3x6
Upright Rows 3x6
Push Press 3x6
Barbell Curl 3x6

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x6
Leg Press 3x6
Good morning 3x6
Glut Ham Raise 3x6
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x6

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x6
Front Squat 3x6
Weighted Step-ups 3x6
High Pull 3x6
Standing Calf Raises 3x10


Loading phase 3-4 weeks
Upper day 1:
Flat bench 3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Iso-metric Plate raises 3x6 (5 Second pause at top)
Power Shrugs 3x8
Lat Pull downs 3x8
Bicep Curls 3x8

Upper day 2:
Incline DB press 3x8
Barbell overhead extensions 3x8
Barbell Curls 3x8
Iso-metric DB shrugs 5x5 (5 second pause at top)
Upright Rows 3x8
Push Press 3x8

Upper day 3:
Decline Bench Press 3x8
Weighted Dips 3x8
Preacher Curls 3x8
Seated DB Press 3x8
Dumbell Rows 3x8

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x8
Good Morning 3x8
Glut Ham Raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x8
Front Squat 3x8
Weighted Step-ups 3x8
Standing Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 3:
Leg Press 3x8
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8
Glut Ham raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10


Tapering 5-6 weeks

Upper day 1:
Bench 2x10
Close grip 2x10
Military Press 2x10
Upright row 2x10
Hammer Curls 2x10

Lower day 1:
Squat 2x10
Deadlift 2x10
Glut Ham raise 1x10
GM 2x10

To better explain this, you are doing a 4 day split the first 2 weeks, Mon/upper-Tues/lower, Thurs/upper-Fri/lower. Then during loading you are doing a 6 day routine, doing upper 3 days and legs 3 days a week, everyother day. Then you taper off to 2 weeks of just twice a week to recover, then do it over again. Believe it or not, we did this for 3 rotations and my partner gained over 25lbs eating like a horse. He is a genetic freak, I only gained 10.Still a killer program and not boring.

[ATrainer]

After 25+ years of training myself, and others as a trainer, I have developed a routine that gets great benefits from mass, strength, anaerobic endurance, and good overall fitness. I've observed hundreds of people doing all sorts of routines, and compared the results vs time/effort, and am confident in the results of my routine.

It is successful for everyone that has followed it; male/female, old/young, big/small. In an hour and a half of weights and cardio, you can get the most out of your training time.

It's all about progresion; Progressive resistance, progressive resistance cardio. I use 3x10 sets, supersetting, and lifts that are maximally efficient. I do 3 full-body workouts a week coupled with 30 min. cardio sessions done immediately after the weights.

These workouts precipitate results every workout. I don't know how people train for weeks on end with little to show for it. If you aren't getting results consistently, you aren't taking advantage of your body's ability to adapt.

I think Max-OT is on the right track in some things, but isn't as efficient as it could be. Same with HST.

[FortifiedIron]

Here is another routine that I tried for the first time this year that I give high marks. If you are bored with the same ol exercises and routine, give this a go. I got it from the PL section and it has alot of compound power lifting movements in it. It is a killer. I was unable to do the 6 day a week that it calls for the last 2 weeks, opted to only do legs twice and do 5 days, Mon-Fri.
Here it is:

Hypertrophy Program
Week 1-2 (regular training)
Upper day 1:
Bench Press 3x6
Close grip 3x6
Push down 3x6
DB shrugs 3x6
Weighted pull ups 3xF
Military Press 3x6
Preacher Curls 3x6

Upper day 2:
Incline Press 3x6
Fly’s 3x6
Triceps extensions 3x6
Barbell Shrug 3x6
Upright Rows 3x6
Push Press 3x6
Barbell Curl 3x6

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x6
Leg Press 3x6
Good morning 3x6
Glut Ham Raise 3x6
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x6

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x6
Front Squat 3x6
Weighted Step-ups 3x6
High Pull 3x6
Standing Calf Raises 3x10


Loading phase 3-4 weeks
Upper day 1:
Flat bench 3x8
Skull Crushers 3x8
Iso-metric Plate raises 3x6 (5 Second pause at top)
Power Shrugs 3x8
Lat Pull downs 3x8
Bicep Curls 3x8

Upper day 2:
Incline DB press 3x8
Barbell overhead extensions 3x8
Barbell Curls 3x8
Iso-metric DB shrugs 5x5 (5 second pause at top)
Upright Rows 3x8
Push Press 3x8

Upper day 3:
Decline Bench Press 3x8
Weighted Dips 3x8
Preacher Curls 3x8
Seated DB Press 3x8
Dumbell Rows 3x8

Lower day 1:
Squat 3x8
Good Morning 3x8
Glut Ham Raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 2:
Deadlift 3x8
Front Squat 3x8
Weighted Step-ups 3x8
Standing Calf Raises 5x10

Lower day 3:
Leg Press 3x8
Straight Leg Deadlift 3x8
Glut Ham raise 3x8
Seated Calf Raises 5x10


Tapering 5-6 weeks

Upper day 1:
Bench 2x10
Close grip 2x10
Military Press 2x10
Upright row 2x10
Hammer Curls 2x10

Lower day 1:
Squat 2x10
Deadlift 2x10
Glut Ham raise 1x10
GM 2x10

To better explain this, you are doing a 4 day split the first 2 weeks, Mon/upper-Tues/lower, Thurs/upper-Fri/lower. Then during loading you are doing a 6 day routine, doing upper 3 days and legs 3 days a week, everyother day. Then you taper off to 2 weeks of just twice a week to recover, then do it over again. Believe it or not, we did this for 3 rotations and my partner gained over 25lbs eating like a horse. He is a genetic freak, I only gained 10.Still a killer program and not boring.

I developed that program as part of my Pure Hypertrophy Training workouts

Impressive gains from you and your partner.

More advanced programs coming up with more goodies to play with.

Kc

[Charger]

I developed that program as part of my Pure Hypertrophy Training workouts

Impressive gains from you and your partner.

More advanced programs coming up with more goodies to play with.

Kc

Yes you did! Sorry about that FortifiedIron. I intended to list your name and site but to be honest it got deleted from my Fav list by accident and I couldn't remember it. Old age setting in. Great routine! Hardcore!

[Max-Machine]

Thanks to all for the various posts! Something's wrong with me 'cause I don't get bored in the gym.( probably due to missing workouts all the time!) I can do the same movements over and over.....I'm not there to be entertained---I'm there to work!

Must be my factory mentality kicking in......

I still can't reconcile in my mind the claims made by AST. You have to be a complete ass-wipe to think only Max ot will work better than anything. How can you really know for sure what is "better"... there are too many varialbles invloved.

Seems to me we have a definition problem-i.e.---agreeing exactly what is meant by "overload"......we know you have to make the muscle do something it has not done before. I still can't find anything wrong with AST's version of overload. Although I like higher reps sometimes, is it not true that heavier weight will cause more fibres to break down deeper in the muscle?

You can get vary scientific about all this with fast twitch and slow twitch ---but I still do not believe anyone has really nailed it down just yet....

Personally, I can't see how anything you do in the gym is a waste of time---no matter how stupid it looks! Every set you do is better than the set you don't do......

I still say it's 90% genetics..... BUT since I thought this might be a good place to debate your fav. routine. I'll take the max ot position and challenge someone to actually prove to everyone why you need to "change -it-up"..

You have two pro-bodybuilders following max ot to the "t", and if they are not liars, they are training clean. Is that not proof enough?

Come on guys, take the gloves off----wer'e all adults here...

[FortifiedIron]

Yes you did! Sorry about that FortifiedIron. I intended to list your name and site but to be honest it got deleted from my Fav list by accident and I couldn't remember it. Old age setting in. Great routine! Hardcore!

Hey no biggie bro

I put the program out not to promote my site or anything but to better people's life and thats what its doing thats what i wanted it to do!

Again congrats on gains!

Kc

[A.FreeRadical]

Once I hit a certain weight (250-300lbs.) in anything, something seems to let go on me. Building muscle involves more than just overloading your muscles. You have to develop tendon & joint strength. If your strength develops beyond your structure's ability to handle it, something's gonna break!

There are certain people who can handle heavy weight all the time with no joint problems. God bless them!

Yes, this is an issue with me. At 59 years old, I am finding my muscle strength is gaining just fine, but I am getting sore wrists, elbows and knees. I may have to back off Max-OT if I can't get a handle on this. I am using glucaucamine and chondroitin, but it isn't keeping up with my "progress". This is my sixth week, I may just take a break and do a high rep / lower weight maintenance week this coming week and see if I can't get things healed up.

[Max-Machine]

Yes, this is an issue with me. At 59 years old, I am finding my muscle strength is gaining just fine, but I am getting sore wrists, elbows and knees. I may have to back off Max-OT if I can't get a handle on this. I am using glucaucamine and chondroitin, but it isn't keeping up with my "progress". This is my sixth week, I may just take a break and do a high rep / lower weight maintenance week this coming week and see if I can't get things healed up.

Just remember, you can make gains using liter weight. Don't believe all the hype at AST. I like max ot cause it's short and still produces gains. IF I was at all interested in competitive bodybuilding, I'd have to rethink things.

The whole arguement here is what is BEST. What do we mean by best? The fastest most economical way that keeps producing results. Everyone stagnates after a while. This thread should produce all kinds of plateau breakers (hopefully).

Think of this as a "brainstorming" thread, where all your so-called expert notions are put to the test!

[Max-Machine]

It's all about progresion; Progressive resistance, progressive resistance cardio. I use 3x10 sets, supersetting, and lifts that are maximally efficient. I do 3 full-body workouts a week coupled with 30 min. cardio sessions done immediately after the weights.

These workouts precipitate results every workout. I don't know how people train for weeks on end with little to show for it. If you aren't getting results consistently, you aren't taking advantage of your body's ability to adapt.

I think Max-OT is on the right track in some things, but isn't as efficient as it could be. Same with HST.

I couldn't agree more. Yet, your routine violates max ot principles all over the place! Is not efficiency defined as the shortest way possible? Don't you think you are just exhausting the muscle with this routine as opposed to overloading it?( whatever that REALLY means!)

Cardio after weights? I do this too, but I don't think it's ideal----I'm just saving time!

[ATrainer]

I couldn't agree more. Yet, your routine violates max ot principles all over the place! Is not efficiency defined as the shortest way possible? Don't you think you are just exhausting the muscle with this routine as opposed to overloading it?( whatever that REALLY means!)

Cardio after weights? I do this too, but I don't think it's ideal----I'm just saving time!

Efficiency does mean the least amount of work to get the best results. Exhausting the metabolism as opposed to exhausting the muscle is more of my goal. The supersetting pushes both the CP and glycolytic systems, as well as the supporting organs (heart, lungs, and liver). But at the same time, the gross weight increase of between 25-100 lbs per exercise per day, which equates to 75-300 lbs per week, makes adequate overload on the muscles.

The number of exercises is limited to the minimum necessary to address all variables of each muscle group, usually 1-3. I have 22 exercises to hit everything, but you can get results at the minimum of 1 per muscle group.

The complete 22 exercise full-body workout will kick your ass, and you have to graduate into it. The last time I was doing it, 4 years ago at 40 yrs old, I was doing over 39 tons per workout, and every workout was over a half a ton more weight than the previous workout two days before. The results were awesome.

Right now I am doing the abbreviated workouts, but still put on 5 lbs of new muscle in 3 weeks. The progressive resistance is the growth kicker.

As far as the cardio after weights, it is the most efficient because you are invoking the Krebs cycle in a glycogen depleted state = direct fat metabolism. And since you are using a fresh fuel system and efficient fuel source, you have ample energy (after a few agonizing minutes of lingering glycolysis) to go for at least 30 minutes of pure fat burn and cardio-respiratory enhancement.

[Max-Machine]

The progressive resistance is the growth kicker.

As far as the cardio after weights, it is the most efficient because you are invoking the Krebs cycle in a glycogen depleted state = direct fat metabolism. And since you are using a fresh fuel system and efficient fuel source, you have ample energy (after a few agonizing minutes of lingering glycolysis) to go for at least 30 minutes of pure fat burn and cardio-respiratory enhancement.

I couldn't agree more on the progressive resistance concept. I guess there are varying degrees of overload. Really, it depends on your goals. The whole routine sounds good & all, but I'm too lazy for all that work!

Playing devil's advocate here.....I'm assuming we are talking max. amount of muscle growth in shortest time period. If you have to hit a muscle more than once a week, than you have not sufficiently overloaded it. Properly overloaded, it should take minimum 5 days to recoup....

Efficiency? My max ot shoulder routine is 20 min. tops--once a week. To get more efficient than that I'd have to use nytol...

Not too sure about the Krebbs cycle thingy after a muscle building session. Ideally, your muscles are now depleted of glycogen and if you don't fuel immediately, you go catabolic.......that's why AST recommends cardio 8 hours later. Remember, the goal is MAXIMUM muscle gains. Sure, you'll make gains with your routine, and I'm not knocking it 'cause I do cardio also after weights.....BUT..... would you train that way to get into competition shape?

[Max-Machine]

These workouts precipitate results every workout. I don't know how people train for weeks on end with little to show for it. If you aren't getting results consistently, you aren't taking advantage of your body's ability to adapt.

I think Max-OT is on the right track in some things, but isn't as efficient as it could be. Same with HST.

I can't see how you can know after one workout that you got results! Sometimes you can plough ahead for weeks and out of nowhere, big gains. But after 1 workout? How could you possibly prove that objectively?

With max ot, strength always comes first, size later. If you give up too soon, you may have just missed the "get big wagon"!

[ATrainer]

I can't see how you can know after one workout that you got results! Sometimes you can plough ahead for weeks and out of nowhere, big gains. But after 1 workout? How could you possibly prove that objectively?

With max ot, strength always comes first, size later. If you give up too soon, you may have just missed the "get big wagon"!

If you did 1050 lbs more than the last workout, in the same time-frame, you can pretty well see a result (strength increase via increased resistance). And when you do that 3 days a week for weeks, it equates to a huge strength gain.

That's where I object to some of the other programs. They either bulk/cut, or gain strength/mass. To me its a simultaneous effort. If I'm doing my program, and eating properly, I expect a net fat loss and mass gain, usually at a 3:2 ratio. I have a high-tech body composition tester that I use every 3 weeks to assess changes.

As I said, after 3 weeks of diligence, I just gained 5 lbs of new lean mass. That's just under 1.5 lbs of lean a week. If you think of that in terms of a slab of lean beef, it puts it into perspective. A tape measure confirmed the results of an all-time high in bicep girth. My arm exercise resistances went up 15 lbs each in the same time, also 15 lbs more than ever. I'm talking all new growth and strength, not rebuilt.

The reason I stick with static sets, reps, speed is to maintain consistency of endurance, workloads, and target fibers. For numerous reasons, I really am pleased with 10 rep sets. And my 10 rep max over time nets a far greater 1RM than the calculations predict. On that alone, I don't see a need to risk injury by lowering reps to stimulate strength or mass. The muscular endurance and metabolic benefits are not worth sacrificing either.

Proper overload is a vague term. After many years, I've settled on 2.5-10 lbs a week increase in resistance. Sometimes Squats as much as 20. There's a fine line since muscles grow faster than connective tissues can handle. It is a matter of age, ability, size and leverage of muscles in relationship to each exercise.

An example: I taught college weight training. One guy was trying unsuccessfully to increase his bench press, which was stuck at 225 after many different programs. Since my program does go against the paradigm grain, he hadn't done mine. With 8 weeks left in the semester, I told him to just do my program exactly, and I would get him to 300 by semester's end. Unfortunately he only got 295, but hey, the next week he should have gotten it.

So as far as overload, I use an agressive program that makes sustained gains a likely possibility. 5 days to reccuperate? Not when you have the metabolism in place. Ever watch Navy SEAL training on DISCOVERY Channel?

Would I use my program to get ready for a contest? Let me put it this way. A couple of months before my 20 yr HS reunion, I really needed to get in better shape. After hitting it hard, I looked significantly better: leaner, bigger. And when turning 40, I had two months before a divorce to get presentable, and damned if two months of the full program didn't get me in awesome shape. While I would never go to the dietary extreme to compete, yes, I would do my program for a quick way to bulk up and cut up simultaneously in a hurry.

I can relate to the lazy thing. I spent the last 3 years working out maybe 1 or 2 times a week. Had lost all motivation. Only trained because people at work come train with me and learn my stuff. When you have 1-5 training partners bugging you to train with them, you can't totaly flake out.

I'd like to know what kind of gains you get on your workout: lean gain, fat loss, strength gain, etc. or expected goals.

[Most Muscular]

how come no one isn't throwing Doggcrap training into the fire here?

[U R GIRLIE MAN]

I'm thinking of combining different routines. I love max ot, but think that bodybuilding is more than just big muscles. A true bodybuilder is one who is fit in every area. Due to different injuries, I want to do high volume for legs, maybe arms and Max ot style for everything else. Anyone thought of this or tried it?

Also, due to the recent "debates" I've been involved in, this might be a good thread to sort of air your "opinions" on your fav. routine without polluting someone else's thread!

Anyone up for some lively debating?

I will agree muscles are overated esp big muscles, a little veiny arm has more definition . a true body builder is as intence on the treadmill or kick box aerobics as he is with the olympic bar. injuries are the worst showing ones inability to lift with good form so light pumping is the best way to avoid this pitfall. max-ot seems to lead to injuries , that thread on it is awful . hst should be ones first program then gvt. switching back and fourth has put slabs of lean muscle mass on my frame. ten years of doing this routine has put 25 pounds on me . my body weight has hit astonishing 145 lbs with 14 inch arms . I can bench press 185 for a max , what you guys think about a 44 year old guy doing this?

[Max-Machine]

. And my 10 rep max over time nets a far greater 1RM than the calculations predict. On that alone, I don't see a need to risk injury by lowering reps to stimulate strength or mass. The muscular endurance and metabolic benefits are not worth sacrificing either.

Proper overload is a vague term. After many years, I've settled on 2.5-10 lbs a week increase in resistance. Sometimes Squats as much as 20. There's a fine line since muscles grow faster than connective tissues can handle. It is a matter of age, ability, size and leverage of muscles in relationship to each exercise.


I can relate to the lazy thing. I spent the last 3 years working out maybe 1 or 2 times a week. Had lost all motivation. Only trained because people at work come train with me and learn my stuff. When you have 1-5 training partners bugging you to train with them, you can't totaly flake out.

I'd like to know what kind of gains you get on your workout: lean gain, fat loss, strength gain, etc. or expected goals.

I remember you---you're the get-big-pecs-without bench-pressing guy!

I would never crtique anyone's routine, esp. when they are gettin' results! However, you know very well your stuff goes against EVERYONE'S grain, not just max ot!

Is your routine the most efficient way? I guess it is for you.....but when the world of bodybuilding has been doing things a certain way for 50 years, and then someone comes along and claims they got something better, I'm sorry for being skeptical!

As for my gains? I guess it would be a whole lot better if I didn't work 12 hours shifts, change workout days every week, and had better proteins shakes than my favourite Coors lite brand... ....

But, I'm not complaining....and neither is my girlfriend!......

[Max-Machine]

I will agree muscles are overated esp big muscles, a little veiny arm has more definition . a true body builder is as intence on the treadmill or kick box aerobics as he is with the olympic bar. injuries are the worst showing ones inability to lift with good form so light pumping is the best way to avoid this pitfall. max-ot seems to lead to injuries , that thread on it is awful . hst should be ones first program then gvt. switching back and fourth has put slabs of lean muscle mass on my frame. ten years of doing this routine has put 25 pounds on me . my body weight has hit astonishing 145 lbs with 14 inch arms . I can bench press 185 for a max , what you guys think about a 44 year old guy doing this?

Sounds like you are a "hard gainer"--and doing great! It all depends on what you were before you started training. Looks and sounds great to me!

Perhaps now your body is ready to handle some of the heavy stuff?

Then watch your gains come!

[Max-Machine]

injuries are the worst showing ones inability to lift with good form so light pumping is the best way to avoid this pitfall. max-ot seems to lead to injuries , . I can bench press 185 for a max , what you guys think about a 44 year old guy doing this?

Don't be fooled by that. I injured my back one time doing 5 sets of 10. Guess what rep done me in? Set 5 rep 8-10. Boy, next day could hardly get out of bed!

Basically, it is lack of concentration that will cause an injury. With max ot there is less chance of injury due to the fact there are only 4-6 reps to worry about!

185 is great for anyone,especially over 40. And that's 40lbs. over bodyweight. But, I'll gaurantee 6 weeks of max ot and you'll be over 200 lbs.!



I love to smile!

BTW, just so you don't think more gains are not within reach, a guy at my gym just hit 400 on the bench at age 42---never did it before! AND he had back surgery last year to boot!

His favourite protein drink?---COORS LITE!

I'm gettin' a case this weekend......

[Max-Machine]

how come no one isn't throwing Doggcrap training into the fire here?

I'll bet somebody'll claim results with that....

[Original Poster]

I'll bet somebody'll claim results with that....

Gator one of the mods here is doing DoggCrap's routine actually. I think he's out of town on bizz. Maybe he'll stop buy here and muddy the waters a bit more......LOL

[Max-Machine]

The complete 22 exercise full-body workout will kick your ass, and you have to graduate into it. As far as the cardio after weights, it is the most efficient because you are invoking the Krebs cycle in a glycogen depleted state = direct fat metabolism. And since you are using a fresh fuel system and efficient fuel source, you have ample energy (after a few agonizing minutes of lingering glycolysis) to go for at least 30 minutes of pure fat burn and cardio-respiratory enhancement.

There is a big difference between exhausting yourself & overloading the muscle. When I stated that I was not sure what "overload" meant, it was more of a rhetorical question than actually "I don't know". I use to do martial arts. We had to do a muscular endurance test. Brutal! 5 minutes of non-stop push-ups, sit-ups , leg -tucks, hypers and whatever!

You got in great shape--endurance wise. But while everyone who stayed with it got pretty hard & tough, no one got any bigger! Uh, gee, I wonder why, duh?

It's simple-- the heavier you lift---the bigger you get! When you talk about "results" are you talking "swimmer/gymnast physique" or body builder?

You can talk all you want about Krebs, ketosis, whatever......it all boils down to one thing---burn more calorories than you take in and you lose weight. AST's diet plan in that regard is right on the money!