<<<Official HIT vs Volume thread>>>

[scott_donald]

this is where the arguments for and against both should be made...

any direct personal attacks will be banned straight away...

keep it nice and have a good discussion...

[nightwolfz]

There we go again ...

[Uriel_da_man]

I'm just gonna spare everybody the trouble of 100+ pages of clutter and sum it all down:

HIT guy: Do Mentzer's Heavy Duty and gain 30lbs in a month!
Volume guy: Dude you can't gain 30lbs of MUSCLE in a month unless it's newbie gains + genetics.
HIT: Dumb****!! *biased article without sources*, *misinterpreted quotes*
Vol: *neutral point-of-view article with good sources*
HIT: *overlooks article altogether* You volume trolls blablabla *neg*
Repeat

[sick+tired]

Originally Posted by Uriel_da_man

I'm just gonna spare everybody the trouble of 100+ pages of clutter and sum it all down:

HIT guy: Do Mentzer's Heavy Duty and gain 30lbs in a month!
Volume guy: Dude you can't gain 30lbs of MUSCLE in a month unless it's newbie gains + genetics.
HIT: Dumb****!! *biased article without sources*, *misinterpreted quotes*
Vol: *neutral point-of-view article with good sources*
HIT: *overlooks article altogether* You volume trolls blablabla *neg*
Repeat

LOL! But you forgot the part were the HIT advocates claim crazy e-stats like a 500 lb Incline Bench.

[davesporty]

Originally Posted by sick+tired

LOL! But you forgot the part were the HIT advocates claim crazy e-stats like a 500 lb Incline Bench.

i can only manage 6x 200 ,hoping to make it to 220 this month.

[VikingMan]

Good idea. Reading through 4-5 of KingFish's old threads was getting tiresome.

So. The lineup. HIT guys in one corner, and lower volume, medium volume, higher volume, and very high volume guys in the other corner. Is that how this stacks up? I'd say that's one of my biggest issues with HIT(or rather HIT proponents). Their characterization of "volume" guys. If you do two sets not to failure, you're a volume guy and they'll ask things like, why two sets? Why not 3? Why not 50?

[TexAss]

Originally Posted by Uriel_da_man

I'm just gonna spare everybody the trouble of 100+ pages of clutter and sum it all down:

HIT guy: Do Mentzer's Heavy Duty and gain 30lbs in a month!
Volume guy: Dude you can't gain 30lbs of MUSCLE in a month unless it's newbie gains + genetics.
HIT: Dumb****!! *biased article without sources*, *misinterpreted quotes*
Vol: *neutral point-of-view article with good sources*
HIT: *overlooks article altogether* You volume trolls blablabla *neg*
Repeat

Originally Posted by sick+tired

LOL! But you forgot the part were the HIT advocates claim crazy e-stats like a 500 lb Incline Bench.

Also forgot the gratuitous comments of, "volume trolls getting owned."

It would probably go right before the repeat...

[nitrored]

I would honestly like to hear about HIT from people who arent either trolls or 150lbs... I doubt it is going to happen though

[Lifting N Tx]

^^^^

x2

Especially would want to know how long they've been doing it. Lots of things can work for a short time, sometimes its really largely results of what was done previously.

[Uriel_da_man]

Originally Posted by nitrored

I would honestly like to hear about HIT from people who arent either trolls or 150lbs... I doubt it is going to happen though

There's one every now and then. Of course you don't hear from them because they're not trolls like all the others.

[power-builder]

First someone will have to define HIT and define volume. There's many different ideas of HIT, from one set per exercise (Heavy Duty), to one set per bodypart (Pure HIT).

The same goes for volume, some people see volume as anything over 20+ sets per bodypart, some see it as more than 10, and Hitters see it as anything more than 1.

Is low volume training still volume? or is it closer to HIT?

Or is this thread about HIT vs everything else out there?

[FortifiedIron]

Before we even talk about Volume dont you think we should lay down an actual understanding of what it really is?

The same goes with Intensity.

Kc

[Dr Clay]

One of the problems in comparing HIT vs Volume training (besides establishing definitions) is that both have worked for numerous people. I feel it's analogus to getting a sun tan. You can get tan a number of different ways. One is via a Super Duper Quantum Turbo 8 minute Magnum Tanning machine (similar to HIT) or by lying in the sun, with sunscreen, at off-peak hours but for many hours (like volume training). BUT, what further complicates the equation is that dark-skinned people can tolerate more sun (or UV exposure), and would thus require a lot of UV exposure to get darker. On the other hand, fair-skinned individuals can only tolerate a little UV exposure or they'll burn, peel, and end up with damage but just as pale (like overtraining).

[Andalite]

Volume IMO is supposed to be Sets x Reps x Weight. therefore, for any exercise - like the squat for example, 1 set of 10 reps with 200 lbs means that it has a volume of 1 x 10 x 200 = 2000 lbs.

Intensity IMO is supposed to be a % of ur 1RM.

this is what i have read and what i actually believe in.

[power-builder]

Dr. Clay, I've heard that analogy before. The only problem with it is, you can go out and get a bad sunburn, but then you need to wait at home until it heals up before you can go tanning again. Or you can just get the right amount of "sun" to cause a slightly darker tan without causing a burn and requiring you to take extensive time recovering.

[Andalite]

Originally Posted by Andalite

Volume IMO is supposed to be Sets x Reps x Weight. therefore, for any exercise - like the squat for example, 1 set of 10 reps with 200 lbs means that it has a volume of 1 x 10 x 200 = 2000 lbs.

Intensity IMO is supposed to be a % of ur 1RM.

this is what i have read and what i actually believe in.

oh, and assuming this to be the true definitions, i believe i co-ordinate my intensity sessions throughout the week thereby maximizing volume. so yes, im a volume trainee using high intensity AND low intensity.

[N@tural1]

shouldnt we all used various styles of training and use what works best for us as an individual?

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by FortifiedIron

Before we even talk about Volume dont you think we should lay down an actual understanding of what it really is?

The same goes with Intensity.

Kc

Logic would dictate that if you're going to say we need a definition, that you start it off by offering one.

Volume, as I understand it, is simply another word for the amount of relevant work being done. And intensity generally refers to the % of 1RM on the bar.

So, HIT, is a very low volume, and also a low intensity routine as most of the time the work set is done in the 8-12 rep range, if I'm not mistaken.

[bbiggum]

i challenged them long ago and got turned down, also for a chat in the chat room here but noone accepted, but here is a good mentzer article.

EFFORT
By Mike Mentzer
I recalled the first of my high-quality efforts in bodybuilding. The effort level was so intense, embodying such exhilaration and such a quantum leap from previous workouts that the mere act of recalling it nearly takes me into the Pain Zone.
Around 1972 I began to be seriously committed to becoming a bodybuilding champion. I was training with a couple of dedicated Washington, D.C., policemen. I remember I was doing Scott curls with a weight that had normally limited me to 5-6 reps. As I was curling the weight, I became aware of a surging power and energy. My law-and-order training partners sensed that something out of the ordinary was taking place within that mysterious youngster named Mentzer. Now I was on my sixth rep, showing no signs of slowing down or weakening.

By the time I had performed eight reps, I ceased being aware of my partners. My concentration focused more and more intensely on the weight and my biceps. As I continued to 9-10 reps it was as though I'd surrendered to the momentum of the process. I eked out one more rep, for a total of 11, about six reps better than my previous best performance in the Scott curl.

Not until I put down the weight did I realize that something unusual had happened. As I sat down to catch my breath and wipe my brow, I was seized by the full significance of what it meant to train with 100% intensity.

No longer was the notion of intensity merely an abstract concept floating in my brain. Intensity was now a living, breathing entity that pervaded my entire being and would direct all my future actions. The training approach of all or nothing became the basis of a philosophy that could be applied to life in general. Stated simply, the concept is if anything is worth doing, then give it everything you've got or don't attempt it at all. Because such peak efforts occur relatively infrequently, they tend to stand out in our memory. They are typically marked by a greater-than-usual focus on the present, attended by a sense of enhanced personal power. When we transcend, if only by a degree, our previous levels of effort, we invariably make quantum leaps in progress. These peak efforts help us break through to higher functional levels and as such are powerful learning experiences. They put us closer in touch with what psychologist William James calls "hidden reserves."


EFFORT AND SURVIVAL
Nature does not allow living creatures to be inactive. In all levels of biology, inactivity spells death. Life is growing: When not moving forward, it falls backward. We survive, then, only as long as we advance. Humankind evolved through continuous struggle and effort. Since men and women are distinguished from other creatures because they have a mind, they will get the best out of themselves when they employ their rational ability to focus on the future, that is, attaining their goals. The individual who wants to evolve physically and mentally must be willing to exert continuous effort.

Since life by its nature involves struggle, we are also faced with the constant possibility of defeat. Hence, humankind derives intense pleasure from successful effort, as it confirms the possibility of success in life.

An individual's self-esteem stems from a sense of control over reality. Whenever we carry out a conscious effort, such as when we struggle against an opposing force like doing a 400-pound bench press, we feel a specific power rising in us, a sense of "will." The abundant self-esteem associated with champion bodybuilders stems precisely from their having achieved goals by generating the proper effort. They took the time and expended the necessary energy to develop their self-respect. They sufficiently value life and happiness to exert compete effort. As a result they rightfully feel pride.

Individuals who avoid effort may end up with problems stemming from the meaning and value they attach to life. The chronic avoidance of effort eventually will cause the person's inner resources to atrophy. This sense of impotence with life makes such individuals feel helpless in the face of even minor adversities.

The will needs a rallying point around which it can gather its force. Bodybuilding always served as a powerful stimulant that heightened the sense of meaning in my own life. The following excerpt from my training journal before my 1978 Mr. Universe victory chronicles this heightened sense of meaning associated with my contest preparation efforts:

"The notion that all this torturous preparation, privation and relentless pursuit have lifted me to a new and higher level of existence has become increasingly apparent to me. Life has assumed greater meaning in the process. While there is an element of tension and discomfort associated with this elevated existence, I can only say I thrive while caught up in it, and am generally most stimulated in every area - intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually"

The sum of my life's activities - outer, inner, muscular, emotional, sexual, and yes, even spiritual - in short, my essence, was never more profoundly or intensely felt than during periods of great effort. The cumulative effect of this rise in my total power elevates me to a higher level of life.

QUALITY OF EFFORT

Intense efforts result in specific increases in muscular size and strength. Intensity refers to the percentage of momentary effort generated. The closer one comes to exerting 100% of his or her momentary capacity, the greater the likelihood that that person will stimulate increases. Duration of effort, as opposed to intensity, refers to the actual time spent on an effort. Efforts of long duration, such as long-distance running, result in an increase in cardiopulmonary endurance, but do little or nothing to increase skeletal muscle size or strength.

The quality of effort - the intensity factor - is the most important to bodybuilders and strength athletes. Intensity of effort must be high enough to induce an adaptive response, growth. As a rule of thumb the intensity factor must exceed 50% of one's capacity, with greater intensity producing a greater rate of improvement. Those interested in maximum muscle growth must regularly exercise at the 100% intensity level.

VALUES, MOTIVATION & EFFORT

Quality effort of the high-intensity variety requires an abundance of motivation, and actual physical and mental courage. Obviously a well-trained highly conditioned body is capable of all-out effort at practically any time. Because all-out effort places enormous demands on the body's adaptive mechanism, the mind balks at such effort. All of us at one time or other don't feel like engaging in all-out physical effort except in an emergency.

Do you recall ever going to the gym and feeling tired and out of sorts, looking for an excuse not to work out? You find it nearly impossible to focus on what you know you should be doing; a weight that you can ordinarily curl for 10 reps flatly refuses to go up after five. Now picture this: At the point when you're ready to throw in the towel, some sinister looking character puts a pistol to your head and snarls, "Pick up that weight and curl it 10 times or I'll blow your brains out!"

What do you do? You pick up the weight and curl it not 10 times but 15!

Motivation is fueled by desire to gain and maintain a value. The more value we attach to something, the more motivation we'll have to acquire that particular value. It's the concept of life that gives meaning to the concept of value. When that value is threatened, you find that you possess a potential for effort you didn't know you had. It's amazing what you can do when your life or that of someone you love depends on it.

The more value you place on owning a strong muscular physique, the more likely you'll attain that goal, since motivation will not be a problem. Establishing that value requires a person to focus his or her awareness, clarity and intelligence to make a choice - to commit to an effort.

You are the agent of your own destiny whether you realize it or not, or whether you act on it or not. Only you can find the motivation to exert the quality of effort to achieve your full potential as a bodybuilder. No one else can do the work for you.

Developing a personal philosophy of effort based on objective principles requires time and dedication, but the rewards are more than commensurate. As that philosophy takes shape, you will grow increasingly directed and purposeful, and your personal power and charisma will affect everyone you come in contact with. But you can't just think about it, you've got to act on it! So take pride in your power to achieve your values and goals. Be a champion of choice and make the effort to achieve the kind of physique you want.

[VikingMan]

Hey Scott/Rip, would it be a reasonable request to limit this discussion to one's original thoughts? Nobody actually reads these 10 page long Mentzer quotes. Sure, I'd say they can be referred to in the context of an actual issue being discussed. But this is the typical response from the KingFish/HITMOF/biggum type guys. Ask them a direct question, and you get a 10 page Mentzer quote as a response. It's like they're quoting scripture. I don't come here to talk religion, I come here to talk training.

[nitrored]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

Hey Scott/Rip, would it be a reasonable request to limit this discussion to one's original thoughts? Nobody actually reads these 10 page long Mentzer quotes. Sure, I'd say they can be referred to in the context of an actual issue being discussed. But this is the typical response from the KingFish/HITMOF/biggum type guys. Ask them a direct question, and you get a 10 page Mentzer quote as a response. It's like they're quoting scripture. I don't come here to talk religion, I come here to talk training.

I feel the exact same way...

[TexAss]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

Hey Scott/Rip, would it be a reasonable request to limit this discussion to one's original thoughts? Nobody actually reads these 10 page long Mentzer quotes. Sure, I'd say they can be referred to in the context of an actual issue being discussed. But this is the typical response from the KingFish/HITMOF/biggum type guys. Ask them a direct question, and you get a 10 page Mentzer quote as a response. It's like they're quoting scripture. I don't come here to talk religion, I come here to talk training.

You would have to say that after you got "owned" wouldn't you?

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by Mozelstein

You would have to say that after you got "owned" wouldn't you?

GAAAAAA!!! That's the other thing!!! In their view, that one post is "ownage".

Being owned is a pretty girl walking by telling you your fly is open. Being owned is mounting the 100's and not being able to get even one rep(which I've actually seen, poor bastard). Being owned is when you say periodization is when you strip weight off the bar till you can't do any more reps and someone tells you it's not. Being owned is saying you've gained 30LBS of muscle and someone informs you that you got fat, not buff.

A quote from a dead guy is not ownage!!!!!

*faints from increase in blood pressure*

The following pictures are good examples of ownage.

[GSP]

There really shouldn't be so much tension between training programs, but here's my 2 cents. Few people will argue that there are 3 primary variables that can be manipulated in any program:

1. Volume
2. Intensity
3. Frequency

HIT simply locks (for the most part) intensity into one level and encourages progressively decreasing frequency over the course of training to account for fatigue. Any methodology that creates progression for the trainee is good. Any time progression stalls, one or more of the above variables can be altered to allow for further progression. HIT is more limited in options here since intensity is already defined at a given level, and adding volume or frequency is generally discouraged.

As long as a trainee is willing to continue to make alterations to sustain progression, all is well. I've used HIT in the past with good success (Philbin's methodology). I continue to cycle through low volume routines from time to time to fit my training needs.

So in a nutshell, HIT = fine, HIT as the only right training method = stifled progress longer term compared to potential. In my humble opinion anyway.

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by GSP

There really shouldn't be so much tension between training programs, but here's my 2 cents. Few people will argue that there are 3 primary variables that can be manipulated in any program:

1. Volume
2. Intensity
3. Frequency

HIT simply locks (for the most part) intensity into one level and encourages progressively decreasing frequency over the course of training to account for fatigue. Any methodology that creates progression for the trainee is good. Any time progression stalls, one or more of the above variables can be altered to allow for further progression. HIT is more limited in options here since intensity is already defined at a given level, and adding volume or frequency is generally discouraged.

As long as a trainee is willing to continue to make alterations to sustain progression, all is well. I've used HIT in the past with good success (Philbin's methodology). I continue to cycle through low volume routines from time to time to fit my training needs.

So in a nutshell, HIT = fine, HIT as the only right training method = stifled progress longer term compared to potential. In my humble opinion anyway.

See, that's a much more well reasoned response than what you will see out of the typical HIT jedi. They won't even BEGIN to broach the idea that volume and intensity are components that can be manipulated in a training program based on the needs of the trainee.

I think you'll find most "volume" guys are even fine with the idea of abbreviated training. ESPECIALLY in the instance where you've got a guy who is using a volume program and needs some concerted time for recovery.

It's the dogmatic views of the HIT jedi that make them so difficult to converse with in an intelligent way.

Per their own words, HIT = the answer to all weight lifting goals. HITMOF (or was it KingFish?)once said that Westside Barbell guys would put 100LBS on their benches by using HIT for a while. I'm waiting for them to come out and say that HIT will make OLY lifters stronger as well, but that may be a stretch, even for them.

Want to get faster? HIT. Want to get stronger? HIT. Want to get bigger? HIT. Want to cure homosexuality? NO ****... their response was HIT.

[GSP]

[QUOTE=VikingMan;52453421]See, that's a much more well reasoned

It's the dogmatic views of the HIT jedi that make them so difficult to converse with in an intelligent way.

QUOTE]

Very true. It's painful to attempt any kind of discussion with someone who has a closed mind to anything other than a narrow set of ideas. Hardcore HIT zealot's have probably done more to damage the reputation of HIT than some of the training programs themselves.

Training should be simple, if it looks good, try it. If it works, keep doing it. If it quits working, change it. That was what was so refreshing about Madcow's quest last year to provide training information. It was all geared around theory to allow people to think through their training for themselves, while providing a few simple templates to use while figuring that stuff out.

[TheStender]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

Hey Scott/Rip, would it be a reasonable request to limit this discussion to one's original thoughts? Nobody actually reads these 10 page long Mentzer quotes. Sure, I'd say they can be referred to in the context of an actual issue being discussed. But this is the typical response from the KingFish/HITMOF/biggum type guys. Ask them a direct question, and you get a 10 page Mentzer quote as a response. It's like they're quoting scripture. I don't come here to talk religion, I come here to talk training.

I agree with this 100%.

[Lifting N Tx]

Originally Posted by GSP

There really shouldn't be so much tension between training programs, but here's my 2 cents. Few people will argue that there are 3 primary variables that can be manipulated in any program:

1. Volume
2. Intensity
3. Frequency

HIT simply locks (for the most part) intensity into one level and encourages progressively decreasing frequency over the course of training to account for fatigue. Any methodology that creates progression for the trainee is good. Any time progression stalls, one or more of the above variables can be altered to allow for further progression. HIT is more limited in options here since intensity is already defined at a given level, and adding volume or frequency is generally discouraged.

As long as a trainee is willing to continue to make alterations to sustain progression, all is well. I've used HIT in the past with good success (Philbin's methodology). I continue to cycle through low volume routines from time to time to fit my training needs.

So in a nutshell, HIT = fine, HIT as the only right training method = stifled progress longer term compared to potential. In my humble opinion anyway.

Repped for a decent response that actually furthers discussion.

Care to give the crib notes version of Philbin's methodology? Roughly how long can you run it effectively? Following a high volume routine or what?

Originally Posted by GSP

..encourages progressively decreasing frequency over the course of training to account for fatigue..

So more advanced = need for lower frequency in the HIT method, but never the reverse?

[Uriel_da_man]

Why do people keep calling them "HIT Jedis". Aren't Jedis like, the goody-goody two-shoes? That's sort of the opposite of most HITers around here.

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by Uriel_da_man

Why do people keep calling them "HIT Jedis". Aren't Jedis like, the goody-goody two-shoes? That's sort of the opposite of most HITers around here.

I suppose they would be more appropriately called, HIT SITH.