Hammer Curls+Incline Curls= Incline hammer Curls??

[BlackMountain]

Just wondering if doin Incline Hammer Curls is the same as doin inclines and hammer curls separately and if the benefits are the same.
Cheers.

[DJINN]

Hammer curls are different than "regular" DB curls regardless of the angle your sitting at due to the pronation of the wrists. Their is more brachioradialis involvement. Also, their is no benefit to doing curls of any kind on an incline, decline, or other variations...the movement is still flexion of the elbow joint...that is what you're after and the incline seating only increases the chances that you'll use more anterior delts during the movement. Just my thoughts...

Cheers

[Bonecrshr]

Hammer curls are different than "regular" DB curls regardless of the angle your sitting at due to the pronation of the wrists. Their is more brachioradialis involvement. Also, their is no benefit to doing curls of any kind on an incline, decline, or other variations...the movement is still flexion of the elbow joint...that is what you're after and the incline seating only increases the chances that you'll use more anterior delts during the movement. Just my thoughts...

Cheers

...wow, DJINN. So you don't feel that hitting curling movements at varying elbow positions (angles) are of any benefit? I tend to disagree, but as you said...those are just my thoughts as well.

[Meni]

...wow, DJINN. So you don't feel that hitting curling movements at varying elbow positions (angles) are of any benefit? I tend to disagree, but as you said...those are just my thoughts as well.

thats why I do my curls hanging upside down

[Bonecrshr]

thats why I do my curls hanging upside down

Better bloodflow to the arms, baby!

[DJINN]

...wow, DJINN. So you don't feel that hitting curling movements at varying elbow positions (angles) are of any benefit? I tend to disagree, but as you said...those are just my thoughts as well.

thats why I do my curls hanging upside down

We can agree to disagree, and thats what I enjoy about these boards...well, at least the mature few who can express their thoughts without feeling threatened when someone disagrees or challenges them.

The biceps function simply to flex the elbow, or the radius on the humerus and supinate the forearm. Regardless of the angle that we perform a curling movement, the bottom line is that we are still performing the same function...flexion of the radius on the humerus...the biceps can do nothing more than that except supination. So, the only difference with various angles is the manipulation of mechanics...we can make that flexion movement mechanically easier or harder and we can either limit or accentuate the use of surrounding musculature during the movement.

In the end, big biceps is what we all really want from curling movements! So lets get our arses back in the gym and get to it!

[Uriel_da_man]

Hammer curls are different than "regular" DB curls regardless of the angle your sitting at due to the pronation of the wrists. Their is more brachioradialis involvement. Also, their is no benefit to doing curls of any kind on an incline, decline, or other variations...the movement is still flexion of the elbow joint...that is what you're after and the incline seating only increases the chances that you'll use more anterior delts during the movement. Just my thoughts...

Cheers

The biceps originate from the scapula, so changing the position of the shoulder affects their involvement on the lift.

[DJINN]

The biceps originate from the scapula, so changing the position of the shoulder affects their involvement on the lift.

Agreed...it affects their involvement. Meaning, as I stated, that angle changes can bring into play more or less assistance from surrounding musculature (i.e., anterior delts), however this in no way alters the function of the biceps nor the consistency with this function that curls reflect.

Bonecrshr: You have been quite the busy boy! Damn, I just notice you have over 3000 posts with an April 2007 join date! Wow...impressive!

[SwagMorris]

The biceps originate from the scapula, so changing the position of the shoulder affects their involvement on the lift.

yep

The biceps function simply to flex the elbow, or the radius on the humerus and supinate the forearm. Regardless of the angle that we perform a curling movement, the bottom line is that we are still performing the same function...flexion of the radius on the humerus...the biceps can do nothing more than that except supination. So, the only difference with various angles is the manipulation of mechanics...we can make that flexion movement mechanically easier or harder and we can either limit or accentuate the use of surrounding musculature during the movement.

That's kind of like saying there is no reason to work the triceps at different angles... which would be wrong.

[Uriel_da_man]

Agreed...it affects their involvement. Meaning, as I stated, that angle changes can bring into play more or less assistance from surrounding musculature (i.e., anterior delts), however this in no way alters the function of the biceps nor the consistency with this function that curls reflect.

Bonecrshr: You have been quite the busy boy! Damn, I just notice you have over 3000 posts with an April 2007 join date! Wow...impressive!

In most people the long head is more affected by the shoulder position than the short head. And since the brachialis originates from the humerus it isn't affected at all.

Following this to the logical conclusion what it means is that you can manipulate the angles to target either long, medial head or brachialis, all without changing wrist position (which would also have a similar effect on the flexor musculature).

Combining shoulder position with wrist position means there are tons of possible angles to hit the muscle from, all the better for bodybuilders to play around with.

[DJINN]

yep



That's kind of like saying there is no reason to work the triceps at different angles... which would be wrong.

I'm not being a smart ass here or looking to split hairs, but if not for the sake of changing mechanical advantage or simply having variety in one's routine for psychological reasons (boredom, etc.), describe the specific manner in which changing angles on exercises, changes the function performed by the targeted muscle? Your example is specific to triceps...okay...so how does changing the placement of your shoulder or body position in general change the fact that all triceps movements basically end with elbow extension? It doesn't...so the only thing that changes is the mechanical advantage and the involvement of supporting musculature.

[Uriel_da_man]

I'm not being a smart ass here or looking to split hairs, but if not for the sake of changing mechanical advantage or simply having variety in one's routine for psychological reasons (boredom, etc.), describe the specific manner in which changing angles on exercises, changes the function performed by the targeted muscle? Your example is specific to triceps...okay...so how does changing the placement of your shoulder or body position in general change the fact that all triceps movements basically end with elbow extension? It doesn't...so the only thing that changes is the mechanical advantage and the involvement of supporting musculature.

I think you're missing one very crucial point.

Muscles have a maximal contraction they can achieve, specially long muscles. When they have shortened the most they can they enter what is called "active insufficiency", meaning they cannot get any shorter, and assisting muscles must do the work.

When you do a pushdown the long head of the triceps reaches active insufficiency at about the middle of the lift, leaving only the medial and lateral heads to do the work. So pushdowns target the lateral and medial heads, not significantly the long.

Now compare with overhead extensions. The triceps is placed in a stretch, so even when the elbows are locked the muscle does not enter insufficiency. So overhead extensions are a very good long head exercise, in contrast with the pushdowns.

The same principle (active insufficiency) applies to all multi-joint muscles in your body.

[RIPcookiethief]

Regardless of these long posts, to the original poster no, it's not the same.


To others ITT, while I've never really tried incline DB curls, I've heard good things. If not simply for it being a different exercise than normal.

[gekkoboy14]

persoanlly, i get a better squeeze and less shoulder movement doing incline as my arms ahnd down more towards my sides.

[battousai216]

Regardless of these long posts, to the original poster no, it's not the same.


To others ITT, while I've never really tried incline DB curls, I've heard good things. If not simply for it being a different exercise than normal.

no they ae not the same, i read an article that says the incline hammer curls hit the brachialismuch more then the regulaur incline curl

[SwagMorris]

I think you're missing one very crucial point.

Muscles have a maximal contraction they can achieve, specially long muscles. When they have shortened the most they can they enter what is called "active insufficiency", meaning they cannot get any shorter, and assisting muscles must do the work.

When you do a pushdown the long head of the triceps reaches active insufficiency at about the middle of the lift, leaving only the medial and lateral heads to do the work. So pushdowns target the lateral and medial heads, not significantly the long.

Now compare with overhead extensions. The triceps is placed in a stretch, so even when the elbows are locked the muscle does not enter insufficiency. So overhead extensions are a very good long head exercise, in contrast with the pushdowns.

The same principle (active insufficiency) applies to all multi-joint muscles in your body.

Yep, exactly what I was getting at, but in much better words than I could use.

[oldmanmarley]

I think you're missing one very crucial point.

Muscles have a maximal contraction they can achieve, specially long muscles. When they have shortened the most they can they enter what is called "active insufficiency", meaning they cannot get any shorter, and assisting muscles must do the work.

When you do a pushdown the long head of the triceps reaches active insufficiency at about the middle of the lift, leaving only the medial and lateral heads to do the work. So pushdowns target the lateral and medial heads, not significantly the long.

Now compare with overhead extensions. The triceps is placed in a stretch, so even when the elbows are locked the muscle does not enter insufficiency. So overhead extensions are a very good long head exercise, in contrast with the pushdowns.

The same principle (active insufficiency) applies to all multi-joint muscles in your body.

How does passive insufficiency play into this? I imagine that (using overhead extensions as an example) at the bottom of the movement, where the long head is fully stretched, it is unable to do work, so, again, other muscles take over (perhaps the pecs, lats and serratus anterior). Is this true? If so, why does a full stretch limit the force output of a muscle? It's not as if it's fully shortened and can shorten no further. It's quite the opposite, so why is force output limited?

[Uriel_da_man]

How does passive insufficiency play into this? I imagine that (using overhead extensions as an example) at the bottom of the movement, where the long head is fully stretched, it is unable to do work, so, again, other muscles take over (perhaps the pecs, lats and serratus anterior). Is this true? If so, why does a full stretch limit the force output of a muscle? It's not as if it's fully shortened and can shorten no further. It's quite the opposite, so why is force output limited?

PASSIVE insufficiency is when proximal fibers of the muscle stretch while distal fibers shorten (if you're not into compartmentalization, IE working different parts of a muscle, this whole reply will make no sense to you). Passive insufficiency only occours in compound lifts.

For example in a row, the fibers of the biceps near the shoulder stretch (since the shoulder is extending, brining the fibers further from their origin), but the fibers near the elbow shorten, since the elbow is being actively flexed.

The long head is in a full stretch at the bottom of an overhead extension, so that's where it works hardest in comparison to the other heads (don't know the whole science behind this, but I think it also has to do with the stretch reflex).

The last part of your post I didn't quite get the point.

[oldmanmarley]

The last part of your post I didn't quite get the point.

why does a full stretch limit the force output of a muscle? It's not as if it's fully shortened and can shorten no further. It's quite the opposite, so why is force output limited?

Well I was trying to learn about passive insufficiency based on your description of active insufficiency. I assumed that, given your explanation of active insufficiency:

When they have shortened the most they can they enter what is called "active insufficiency", meaning they cannot get any shorter, and assisting muscles must do the work.

, passive insufficiency would be an opposite limiting factor. It makes sense that a muscle can't contract if it's already as short as possible (i.e. active), but I don't see why a muscle can't contract if it's as long as possible (passive). Maybe some of my assumptions are false.

[Uriel_da_man]

Well I was trying to learn about passive insufficiency based on your description of active insufficiency. I assumed that, given your explanation of active insufficiency: , passive insufficiency would be an opposite limiting factor. It makes sense that a muscle can't contract if it's already as short as possible (i.e. active), but I don't see why a muscle can't contract if it's as long as possible (passive). Maybe some of my assumptions are false.

Well then I believe I've already cleared it up.

PASSIVE insufficiency is when proximal fibers of the muscle stretch while distal fibers shorten (if you're not into compartmentalization, IE working different parts of a muscle, this whole reply will make no sense to you). Passive insufficiency only occours in compound lifts.

For example in a row, the fibers of the biceps near the shoulder stretch (since the shoulder is extending, brining the fibers further from their origin), but the fibers near the elbow shorten, since the elbow is being actively flexed.

The long head is in a full stretch at the bottom of an overhead extension, so that's where it works hardest in comparison to the other heads (don't know the whole science behind this, but I think it also has to do with the stretch reflex).

So to sum it up:

Active insufficiency: fibers at one joint are fully flexed while at the other end reach flexed position - muscle reaches maximum contraction.
Passive insufficiency: fibers at one joint flex as the fibers at the other relax - no visible difference in muscle length.

[oldmanmarley]

PASSIVE insufficiency is when proximal fibers of the muscle stretch while distal fibers shorten. Passive insufficiency only occours in compound lifts.

Exrx describes passive insufficiency thus:
The inability for a biarticulate muscle to stretch enough to complete full range of motion in both joints simultaneously.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Muscle.html

That makes me think that it could occur in something like an overhead extension (not a compound).

[Uriel_da_man]

Exrx describes passive insufficiency thus:
The inability for a biarticulate muscle to stretch enough to complete full range of motion in both joints simultaneously.
http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Muscle.html

That makes me think that it could occur in something like an overhead extension (not a compound).

D'oh!

I confused passive insufficiency with dynamic stabilization *slaps forehead*

Of everything I said above, replace "passive insufficiency" with "dynamic stabilization" (not that it's of relevance to this topic, but it'll at least make sense ).

Passive insufficiency is when a muscle can't stretch enough to complete full ROM on both joints (like hamnstrings usually can't stretch enough to fully flex the hips and fully extend knees at the same time).

[BlackMountain]

u guys seem to have lost the plot
Inclines I do on a 45 degree bench with my palms facing up.

hammer curls i do seated with no incline with my knuckles facing down.

incline hammer curls should hit the same parts of the bicep that both of the above do at the same time, shouldn't they?

[Uriel_da_man]

Nope, regardless of shoulder position the hammer grip wouldn't let the inner biceps work much.