M-4ohn ? For PA, Seth, Par, etc....

[Nsruffryder34]

From the feedback I have been seeing, both firsthand and on the various boards, it seems that m-4ohn has a poor afinity for the androgen recptor. When this first was released people said 4-12mgs was enough, now I said that I thoght doses should be 20-30mg at least, and now people are reporting no gains with 30mgs per day. The anabolic profile on m-4ohn looks promising, so this is the only logical conclusion I can come to, other than the product is impure (but we have already seen one COA)....

[Nsruffryder34]

bump

[legalgear]

No, people are just relying on Vida's numbers to be the source of their information. Vida can be terribly innacurate it seems. So we really don't know the potency of MOHN. Not a purity issue at all. Lakevillethor is using our product with success. Again, we have all gotten spoiled with M1T (myself included)

E

[Nsruffryder34]

O, I was not questioning the purity issue..I just said that it was the only other explanation...
I think it has more to do with the androgen recpetor...and the fact that people were dosing too low from the start... I think people should start at 20mg and work they're way up.(which i said months go).... same thing for methyldienolone.... I was jsut curious as to waht people thought about its affinity for the AR...

[legalgear]

Seth would probably know the RBA, but he is currently on strike from LG. Might have to wait until the weekend.

E

[Nsruffryder34]

damnit...i hate waiting....Why cant you legalgear bastards stay up late for once.....j/k...lets see what PA and them have to say

[kj2833]

there are not going to be much gains. most been using to cut and lose a few.

Originally posted by bruce*******


Just thought you might like to know that.
Also, it is NOT marketed as a mass maker but more of a shredder, hardening agent. Just thought you should know that too since it's only been discussed a gazillion times here and elsewhere.

[legalgear]

Originally posted by Nsruffryder34
damnit...i hate waiting....Why cant you legalgear bastards stay up late for once.....j/k...lets see what PA and them have to say

I don't think PA has RBA numbers. Seth guards his book like a dog...

E

[Nsruffryder34]

I wasnt really looking only for the numbers.... just trying to get a little discussion going without all the bickering back and forth..

[brucekneller]

Originally posted by legalgear
I don't think PA has RBA numbers. Seth guards his book like a dog...

E

Woof woof...nice doggy...roll over and give us the RBA's :-)


BK

[Seth Roberts]

Not on strike, but I don't have RBA's for this compound -- and I doubt anyone else does either. I would guess from SAR that i thas less binding affinity than deca and more than hydroxytest. The hydroxygroup at the four position reduces androgen receptor binding affinity, but it also keeps the nandrolone molecle from being 5-alpha reduced to the less potent dihydronandrolone.

[pu12en12g]

For some unholy reason, most people seem to be using it to cut.
Only god knows why...(bandwagon)

Plenty of people are reporting great gains, including experienced juicers.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Nsruffryder34
O, I was not questioning the purity issue..I just said that it was the only other explanation...
I think it has more to do with the androgen recpetor...and the fact that people were dosing too low from the start... I think people should start at 20mg and work they're way up.(which i said months go).... same thing for methyldienolone.... I was jsut curious as to waht people thought about its affinity for the AR...

you cannot always judge the potency of a steroid by its affinity to the androgen receptor

for example, both anadrol and dianabol have very weak affinities, yet they are potent steroids

Most likely, these steroids are actually prohormones to active compounds which do bind strongly to the AR. In other words, they metabolize in the body to their active species

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
you cannot always judge the potency of a steroid by its affinity to the androgen receptor

for example, both anadrol and dianabol have very weak affinities, yet they are potent steroids

Most likely, these steroids are actually prohormones to active compounds which do bind strongly to the AR. In other words, they metabolize in the body to their active species

'


Conversely, Primobolan has very strong affinity to the androgen receptor. Yet it is a relatively weak steroid

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
Not on strike, but I don't have RBA's for this compound -- and I doubt anyone else does either. I would guess from SAR that i thas less binding affinity than deca and more than hydroxytest. The hydroxygroup at the four position reduces androgen receptor binding affinity, but it also keeps the nandrolone molecle from being 5-alpha reduced to the less potent dihydronandrolone.

not quite

Actually, 4-hydroxytestesterone has a very strong binding affinity for the androgen receptor. Comparable or more so than nandrolone

which explains why formestane is such a poor HTPA activator compared to 6-OXO


J Enzyme Inhib. 1992;6(2):141-7. Related Articles, Links


Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.

Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.

Department of Urology, St. Georges Hospital, London, England, UK.

The steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA) and its metabolites, 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT), 3 beta,17-dihydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-4-one (metabolite A) and 3 alpha, 17-dihydroxy-5 beta-androstan-4-one (metabolite B) were evaluated as inhibitors of the human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase enzyme and for binding to the rat prostatic androgen receptor. 4OHA and 4OHT were weak inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase with IC50 values of 15-29 microM. Metabolites A and B had no significant inhibitory activity. 4OHA and metabolites A and B bound weakly to the androgen receptor. The binding affinities (RBA) relative to mibolerone (RBA = 100) were 0.085, 0.485 and 0.016, respectively. However, 4OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (RBA = 66). The ability of these metabolites, in particular 4OHT, to bind to the androgen receptor may explain the in vivo androgenic activity of 4OHA.

PMID: 1284430 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rrgg]

>and now people are reporting no
>gains with 30mgs per day.


Some people are also reporting gains at these levels.

Are you recommending some higher dosage?

[Sldgehmr]

Eric said it best, M1T spoiled everyone. I think people really do expect way to much when using these compounds.

I also agree that binding affinity doesnt always mean better.

[Nsruffryder34]

No, it dosnt neccessarily mean better, and people are spoiled by methyl1test.... but I dont see why, its not the kind of steroid I would like to use on more than a few occassions. People are loking for a miracle anabolic that they can use on every cycle....this is not going to happen. Look at illegal AAS, we have orals such as dbol then we have orals such as stanzonol.... both very different effects, but both have there uses. 4-ohn is not going to be aa bulker, thats what methyl1test and m,14adiol are for, and methyldienolone, well I dont really have much to say about it since I really think its a weak steroid at best.

All I am saying is that we know very little about m4ohn, mdien and all the others. No one really knows what these compounds are and how they will work. We are just guessing by the vida tables. Like PA said, this may just be a precursor to another androgen inside the bottle, which may explain the need for higher dosing than expected....

[kj2833]

Originally posted by pu12en12g
For some unholy reason, most people seem to be using it to cut.
Only god knows why...(bandwagon)

Plenty of people are reporting great gains, including experienced juicers.

maybe cause the guy who put it out said it is better to cut with, only a thought what does he know.

Im not surpised you could make gains with a massive dose, but that isnt the intended purpose. at normal doses its better to cut. If you want big gains you could find other things better suited.

[chefmatth]

But should we not expect a lot frrom these compounds?? They get hyped up not only by us (bodybuilders) and by the producer as well as various muscle mags. Along with that, in general they are more expensive than gear, so maybe high expectaions are really in order. I liked m1t, m5aa,1t cyp, 4ad cyp. They are all good legal alternitves for now. I did a cutting cycle with m4ohn and m5aa, the m4ohn imo was a real let down, I went as high as 40 mgs a day. No gains in power,no bodymass gains no real bodyfast loss. However the m5aa really pumped me up gave me incredible power and hardness. Ran that at 60 mgs a day. I think what it boils down to is each person will respond diffrently due to all the varying factors in place, IE diet, amount of cardio, training frequency and amount of the actual hormone taken. So when evaluating the compounds we should keep that in mind before we bash them, IMO.

[rrgg]

Hmm.... keep in mind that the "hype" was to compare m4ohn to anavar which (arguably) isn't that well appreciated in the first place.

[priapis]

Originally posted by chefmatth
I did a cutting cycle with m4ohn and m5aa, the m4ohn imo was a real let down, I went as high as 40 mgs a day. No gains in power,no bodymass gains no real bodyfast loss. However the m5aa really pumped me up gave me incredible power and hardness. Ran that at 60 mgs a day. .

if you were doing both, how do you know which did what?

[pu12en12g]

Originally posted by priapis
if you were doing both, how do you know which did what?

Good question

[SoCool]

Just my two cents here, but I am very happy with the M-OHN at 25-30mg. I think the reccomended dose was too low, just like the MD. It is partially the manufactures fault for the bad press. I started at like 12mg and worked up to 32mg for what will be the last 3wks of the cycle. No big strength increase but a definite decrease in body fat with little to no muscle loss, my diet has been great, with cardio lacking. It has helped me loose fat, not made me. Why wasn't the reccomended M1 dose low, that is the most powerful one right?

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by chefmatth
But should we not expect a lot frrom these compounds?? They get hyped up not only by us (bodybuilders) and by the producer as well as various muscle mags.

this is what happens when people write about how great a compound is BEFORE ANYONE HAS EVEN TRIED THE FREAKING STUFF!!!!

[legalgear]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
not quite

Actually, 4-hydroxytestesterone has a very strong binding affinity for the androgen receptor. Comparable or more so than nandrolone

which explains why formestane is such a poor HTPA activator compared to 6-OXO


J Enzyme Inhib. 1992;6(2):141-7. Related Articles, Links


Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.

Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.

Department of Urology, St. Georges Hospital, London, England, UK.

The steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA) and its metabolites, 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT), 3 beta,17-dihydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-4-one (metabolite A) and 3 alpha, 17-dihydroxy-5 beta-androstan-4-one (metabolite B) were evaluated as inhibitors of the human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase enzyme and for binding to the rat prostatic androgen receptor. 4OHA and 4OHT were weak inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase with IC50 values of 15-29 microM. Metabolites A and B had no significant inhibitory activity. 4OHA and metabolites A and B bound weakly to the androgen receptor. The binding affinities (RBA) relative to mibolerone (RBA = 100) were 0.085, 0.485 and 0.016, respectively. However, 4OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (RBA = 66). The ability of these metabolites, in particular 4OHT, to bind to the androgen receptor may explain the in vivo androgenic activity of 4OHA.

PMID: 1284430 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hasn't this study been shown to be skewed? I am not an expert by any stretch, but the debate is whether mibolerone is at all an accurate standard for comparing RBA. I am sure Seth will comment when he gets home from work.

E

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by legalgear
Hasn't this study been shown to be skewed? I am not an expert by any stretch, but the debate is whether mibolerone is at all an accurate standard for comparing RBA. I am sure Seth will comment when he gets home from work.

E

mibolerone is used as a standard all the time as is methyltrienolone

no its not skewed

[lakevillethor1]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
mibolerone is used as a standard all the time as is methyltrienolone

no its not skewed

PA; Where is that 200 bones you promised if I took the pic with the ergo hat?

Also, I liked the MOHN for cutting. Granted, I have never really cut this hard before so I don't really know how well my body, naturally, holds onto muscle when a caloric deficit. But anyway, it seemed to do the job -- my strength remained fairly constant when I cut which is a good thing. Also, rebounding from it, I haven't really anything in the last few days.

I have this thing that happens to me whenever I take an oral steroid now about an hour after I take --- it's happened with 1-AD, m1t, and MOHN. It's like I can feel it in my prostate -- it's hard to explain. I have also had problems when I took M1T specifically. Sometimes when I would ejactulte, I would have like this stabbing pain in my prostate. This pain discontinued immedialy after the discontinuation. This does not happen with test. I am probably not going to use any orals in general anymore as this concerns me.

[natron]

Yeah, it would be a good idea to stop using these compounds with a side effct like you mention. I'd be making an appointment ASAP.

My personal opinion on M-4OHN is that is great for cutting, although I agree with people using a dose too low. Also, keep in mind that alot of these individuals taking methylated hormones and expecting outrageous gains are using them on there own, at least in most cases.

I'd be interested to read some reports as to how well they work in combination with C-III androgens. After all, who takes just d-bol or just anadrol? We all know the effects are much more pronounced when in comibation with testosterone and even better yet with oh, say trenbolone.

Rick

[Nsruffryder34]

This is what I like to see... logical discussion about these compounds...