Hello, to all my friends in iron!
I'd like to have everyone participate in this question:
Do you think it's necessary to train beyond failure with the help of a spotter to assist with the last few reps in breaking down the muscle tissue in order for it to repair itself and grow bigger?
Or do you think it's sufficient to train alone, with no assistance from a spotter, and just stop when you reach failure by yourself?
This is an ongoing debate, and I'm just curious as to where people on this message board stand on this issue.
Thanks,
NaturalMsO
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07-16-2004, 05:28 PM #1
Necessary to Train Beyond Failure for Muscle Mass?
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07-16-2004, 05:31 PM #2
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07-16-2004, 05:35 PM #3
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07-16-2004, 05:39 PM #4
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07-16-2004, 05:44 PM #5
I'm sorry, I should've included this with my original post: Please explain why you think it's necessary, or why you don't.
There have been many experienced bodybuilders who say that training to failure (or beyond) is necessary for muscle growth because that's the only way that you're going to break down muscle tissue. And in order for muscles to grow, these micro-tears are necessary. Otherwise, the body would not feel trauma and would see no reason to grow bigger and stronger. Building muscle is not a natural thing; the body doesn't want to do it. We must force our muscles to grow by breaking them down (i.e., training to failure and sometimes beyond). If you're training by yourself (with no help from a spotter to get past those last few reps) and you stop when you tire or can't lift the weight anymore, why WOULD the body see a need to grow bigger muscles? It's a defense mechanism, growing bigger muscles, from the shock of the trauma (i.e., tearing the muscle fibers). Without this, there is no defensive mechanism triggered, and the body stays the same.
NOTE: The above is not necessarily MY point of view (so don't bash me, please! LOL), just what other experienced bodybuilders seem to believe.
NaturalMsO
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07-16-2004, 05:45 PM #6
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07-16-2004, 05:55 PM #7
I'm sorry, I should've included this with my original post: Please explain why you think it's necessary, or why you don't.
There have been many experienced bodybuilders who say that training to failure (or beyond) is necessary for muscle growth because that's the only way that you're going to break down muscle tissue. And in order for muscles to grow, these micro-tears are necessary. Otherwise, the body would not feel trauma and would see no reason to grow bigger and stronger. Building muscle is not a natural thing; the body doesn't want to do it. We must force our muscles to grow by breaking them down (i.e., training to failure and sometimes beyond). If you're training by yourself (with no help from a spotter to get past those last few reps) and you stop when you tire or can't lift the weight anymore, why WOULD the body see a need to grow bigger muscles? It's a defense mechanism, growing bigger muscles, from the shock of the trauma (i.e., tearing the muscle fibers). Without this, there is no defensive mechanism triggered, and the body stays the same.
NOTE: The above is not necessarily MY point of view (so don't bash me, please! LOL), just what other experienced bodybuilders seem to believe.
NaturalMsO
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07-16-2004, 06:01 PM #8
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07-16-2004, 06:13 PM #9
a little somethign I gathered on the negatives of failure, props goes to matt and his training to fail article as that is where I put this all together from:
When consistently exposed to high-frequency impulses, the CNS inhibits its output
Gandevia SC. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue. Physiol Rev. 2001 Oct;81(4):1725-89. Review.
Jones DA. High-and low-frequency fatigue revisited. Acta Physiol Scand. 1996 Mar;156(3):265-70. Review.
Liepert J, Kotterba S, Tegenthoff M, Malin JP. Central fatigue assessed by transcranial magnetic stimulation. Muscle Nerve. 1996 Nov;19(11):1429-34.
Liu JZ, Shan ZY, Zhang LD, Sahgal V, Brown RW, Yue GH. Human brain activation during sustained and intermittent submaximal fatigue muscle contractions: an FMRI study. J Neurophysiol. 2003 Jul;90(1):300-12. Epub 2003 Mar 12.
Liu JZ, Dai TH, Sahgal V, Brown RW, Yue GH. Nonlinear cortical modulation of muscle fatigue: a functional MRI study. Brain Res. 2002 Dec 13;957(2):320-9. Erratum in: Brain Res. 2003 May 30;973(2):307.
Ljubisavljevic M, Milanovic S, et al. Central changes in muscle fatigue during sustained submaximal isometric voluntary contraction as revealed by transcranial magnetic stimulation. Electroencephalogr Clin Neurophysiol. 1996 Aug;101(4):281-8.
Loscher WN, Nordlund MM. Central fatigue and motor cortical excitability during repeated shortening and lengthening actions. Muscle Nerve. 2002 Jun;25(6):864-72.
Siff, MC. Supertraining. 2002. Supertraining Institute, Denver USA.
Taylor JL, Butler JE, Allen GM, Gandevia SC. Changes in motor cortical excitability during human muscle fatigue. J Physiol. 1996 Jan 15;490 ( Pt 2):519-28.
Consistent exposure to a high-intensity stimulus will be damaging to a neuron and to a muscle fiber among other tissues
Biological tissues transform chemical energy into other forms (mechanical force for muscles and electrochemical impulse for neurons)
Biolgical tissues become damage from too much overload (and require recuperatation time)
Generating action potentials over and over cause in maximal intensity is put into a lift causes damage
Cortical motor output (neural drive) research has been published showing that periods of high intensity work require a lot of recovery time
Andersen B, Westlund B, Krarup C. Failure of activation of spinal motoneurones after muscle fatigue in healthy subjects studied by transcranial magnetic stimulation. J Physiol. 2003 Aug 15;551(Pt 1):345-56. Epub 2003 Jun 24.
Belhaj-Saif A, Fourment A, Maton B. Adaptation of the precentral cortical command to elbow muscle fatigue. Exp Brain Res. 1996 Oct;111(3):405-16.
Deschenes MR, Giles JA, Kraemer WJ, et al. Neural factors account for strength decrements observed after short-term muscle unloading. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2002 Feb;282(2):R578-83.
Deschenes MR, Judelson DA, Kraemer WJ, et al. Effects of resistance training on neuromuscular junction morphology. Muscle Nerve. 2000 Oct;23(10):1576-81.
Deschenes MR, Brewer RE, McCoy RW, Kraemer WJ. Neuromuscular disturbance outlasts other symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage. J Neurol Sci. 2000 Mar 15;174(2):92-9.
Deschenes MR, Maresh CM, Kraemer WJ, et al. The effects of exercise training of different intensities on neuromuscular junction morphology. J Neurocytol. 1993 Aug;22(8):603-15.
Deschenes MR, Covault J, Kraemer WJ, Maresh CM. The neuromuscular junction. Muscle fibre type differences, plasticity and adaptability to increased and decreased activity. Sports Med. 1994 Jun;17(6):358-72. Review.
Deschenes MR, Kraemer WJ. Performance and physiologic adaptations to resistance training. Am J Phys Med Rehabil. 2002 Nov;81(11 Suppl):S3-16. Review.
Deschenes MR, Will KM, Booth FW, Gordon SE. Unlike myofibers, neuromuscular junctions remain stable during prolonged muscle unloading. J Neurol Sci. 2003 Jun 15;210(1-2):5-10.
Gandevia SC, Allen GM, Butler JE, Taylor JL. Supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue: evidence for suboptimal output from the motor cortex. J Physiol. 1996 Jan 15;490 ( Pt 2):529-36.
Gandevia SC. Neural control in human muscle fatigue: changes in muscle afferents, motoneurones and motor cortical drive [corrected] Acta Physiol Scand. 1998 Mar;162(3):275-83. Review. Erratum in: Acta Physiol Scand 1998 Jul;163(3):305.
Gandevia SC. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue. Physiol Rev. 2001 Oct;81(4):1725-89. Review.
Neural drive (and fatigue) is directly linked to the individuals state of arousal (due to many of the structures that are responsible for motor output are the same structures that are responsible for emotion/arousal), therefore the need to get psyched up for a lift (week after week) can contribute in return contribute to neurological fatigue (brain central fatigue)
Siff, MC. Supertraining. 2002. Supertraining Institute, Denver USA
peripheral nervous system
Excessive buildup of potassium ions (K+) can cause a limited form of damage to the neuromuscular junction therefore inhibiting the transmission of impulses
Deschenes MR, Judelson DA, Kraemer WJ, et al. Effects of resistance training on neuromuscular junction morphology. Muscle Nerve. 2000 Oct;23(10):1576-81.
Deschenes MR, Maresh CM, Kraemer WJ, et al. The effects of exercise training of different intensities on neuromuscular junction morphology. J Neurocytol. 1993 Aug;22(8):603-15.
Deschenes MR, Covault J, Kraemer WJ, Maresh CM. The neuromuscular junction. Muscle fibre type differences, plasticity and adaptability to increased and decreased activity. Sports Med. 1994 Jun;17(6):358-72. Review.
Jones DA. Muscle fatigue due to changes beyond the neuromuscular junction. Ciba Found Symp. 1981;82:178-96.
Matyushkin DP, Krivoi II, Drabkina TM. Synaptic feed-backs mediated by potassium ions. Gen Physiol Biophys. 1995 Oct;14(5):369-81. Review.
Nielsen JJ, Mohr M, Klarskov C, Kristensen M, Krustrup P, Juel C, Bangsbo J. Effects of high-intensity intermittent training on potassium kinetics and performance in human skeletal muscle. J Physiol. 2003 Nov 21
Intracellular K+ build-up can take place due to disruption to the muscles membrane during mechanical action & during high-frequency neural firing
When too much Ca++ is released inside the muscle (from failure) the ECC can become damaged and less responsive to nerve impulses
Deschenes MR, Brewer RE, McCoy RW, Kraemer WJ. Neuromuscular disturbance outlasts other symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage. J Neurol Sci. 2000 Mar 15;174(2):92-9.
Jones DA. Muscle fatigue due to changes beyond the neuromuscular junction. Ciba Found Symp. 1981;82:178-96.
Lamb GD. Excitation-contraction coupling and fatigue mechanisms in skeletal muscle: studies with mechanically skinned fibres. J Muscle Res Cell Motil. 2002;23(1):81-91. Review.
Wallinga W, Meijer SL, Alberink MJ, Vliek M, Wienk ED, Ypey DL. Modelling action potentials and membrane currents of mammalian skeletal muscle fibres in coherence with potassium concentration changes in the T-tubular system. Eur Biophys J. 1999;28(4):317-29.
Training for failure depends on goals, most of the time its best to train to sub failure, but training to failure has its benefits usually, it should be used as a tool. The point of a set (for hypertrophy purposes), is to condition the muscle to microtrauma, then overtime more microtruama...failure isn't required, it's just a too too sometimes help. Training to failure doesnt apply microtruama, stimulation/stretching of the sarcolema does. Aslo as you can see, training to failure actually has negatives to it.
YoungLast edited by Younglifter14; 07-16-2004 at 06:45 PM.
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07-16-2004, 06:53 PM #10
I don't have a workout out partner. Yet. But I kinda agree that working to failure and beyond is neccesary to break down muscle tissue. Those extra two or three reps that you accomplish i'm my opinion would make the difference. But theres also a drawback. For me, I think with the extra intensity I wouldn't be able to do as many sets as I do now.
I'm gonna start doing them as soon as I find a partner.
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07-16-2004, 06:53 PM #11
I don't have a workout out partner. Yet. But I kinda agree that working to failure and beyond is neccesary to break down muscle tissue. Those extra two or three reps that you accomplish i'm my opinion would make the difference. But theres also a drawback. For me, I think with the extra intensity I wouldn't be able to do as many sets as I do now.
I'm gonna start doing them as soon as I find a partner.
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07-16-2004, 07:18 PM #12
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07-16-2004, 07:40 PM #13Originally posted by NaturalMsO
hyp3r3xt3nsion: DC?
basic premise:
warm-up and do 1 working set for each part (tri, chest, back width, back thickness, leg, calves, bi, etc... ). that 1 working set you do is to failure, make certain to finish on the negative; then do 2 rest pauses. once finished move onto the next group- warmup and repeat.
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07-16-2004, 08:24 PM #14
I don't have any kind of scientific answer to back up my response, just what has worked for me personally. And since genetics have a lot to do with muscle growth, this may just apply to me. But I've tried doing it all three ways, sub-failure, AT failure, and push beyond failure, and I've gotten the best gains from going to failure. On OCCASSION, I'll do some forced reps with a spotter to go past failure, but I mostly just use that as a shocker to mix things up.
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07-16-2004, 08:45 PM #15
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07-17-2004, 04:44 AM #16
Training to failure is more of a useful guage of strength. If you fail one week at 9 reps on a certain weight, then the next week you manage 10 or 11 you know you've gained that week. If you're not training to failure how do you know?
Regardless, progressive overload is what matters.El Dudereno he say: "Make every day an anabolic day."
>>>>>>
anabolic
\An`a*bol"ic\, a.(Physiol.) Pertaining to anabolism; an anabolic change or process, more or less constructive in its nature.
>>>>>>
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07-17-2004, 04:58 AM #17
I agree with El Dudereno, going to failure is usefull to have a good indication of your strength. That's about the only advantage.
Another secondary advantage is that it enables to lift heavier at the end of a cycle. So you can lengthen the cycle by one week or so by going all out all the time with max weights.
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07-17-2004, 07:56 AM #18
I have used HIT, Max OT, GVT... going to failure... not going to failure..... I'm a firm believer in periodization. Long term, my body seems to respond best to working kinda heavy, 8-10 rep range, only 2-3 work sets per exercise, NOT going to failure, but progressively slowly adding weight. That's my mainstay. But occasionally I will mix things up for short periods of time, then I always end up right there in the 8-10 rep range.
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07-17-2004, 08:21 AM #19Originally posted by El Dudereno
Training to failure is more of a useful guage of strength. If you fail one week at 9 reps on a certain weight, then the next week you manage 10 or 11 you know you've gained that week. If you're not training to failure how do you know?
Regardless, progressive overload is what matters.
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07-17-2004, 09:20 AM #20
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Re: Necessary to Train Beyond Failure for Muscle Mass?
Originally posted by NaturalMsO
Do you think it's necessary to train beyond failure with the help of a spotter to assist with the last few reps in breaking down the muscle tissue in order for it to repair itself and grow bigger?aut viam inveniam aut faciam
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07-17-2004, 10:36 AM #21
Heh. I see some of you gave really good answers, very scientific; and some are based on personal experience and what you found works for you; and some ... well, some are just hokey crap answers (I'm sure you can see which is which).
Anyway, thanks to all for participating in this discussion. And feel free to add more, etc.
I'm sure you all are wondering what MY personal belief is. So, here it is:
I'm a firm believer in periodization. I cycle my training, which is usually broken up into four-week sessions: hypertrophy phase, strength phase, power phase, and if I'm cutting and preparing for competition, I'll do an endurance phase; if it's off-season, I will omit the endurance phase and just do hypertrophy, strength and power.
Just my 2 cents,
NaturalMsO
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