M1T Safety (Patrick Arnold, Seth Roberts, etc.)

[Beast]

This is a continuation of the discussion from the legalgear thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0&pagenumber=4

What really concerns me is that some people make M1T out to be a wonderful drug, while others think it is terrible and very toxic. I think this needs to be addressed from both angled as many members on this board use M1T. Most of which do not fully understand it. I would like for Patrick Arnold and Seth Roberts, and anyone else who wishes, to gives there thoughts on M1T, why they feel that way, and any scientific support they have for their believes.

No name calling, keep it civil.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Beast
This is a continuation of the discussion from the legalgear thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...0&pagenumber=4

What really concerns me is that some people make M1T out to be a wonderful drug, while others think it is terrible and very toxic. I think this needs to be addressed from both angled as many members on this board use M1T. Most of which do not fully understand it. I would like for Patrick Arnold and Seth Roberts, and anyone else who wishes, to gives there thoughts on M1T, why they feel that way, and any scientific support they have for their believes.

No name calling, keep it civil.

There is a lack of any formal toxicity data on M1T so the only thing we can go with is anecdotal reports.

From what i can gather there are some people that get pretty serious side effects from the stuff and there are others that don't have too much problem with it

[Cajunmuscle]

Are you the same Patrick Arnold, who is an organic chemist that discovered androstenedione and also discovered and patented Androdiol?

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Cajunmuscle
Are you the same Patrick Arnold, who is an organic chemist that discovered androstenedione and also discovered and patented Androdiol?

yes

[Cajunmuscle]

Thanks Patrick for the reply, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

Using 1-AD, will I be gaining muscle mass or weight, i.e. Muscle mass is obivious but weight can be added in the wrong places and How often will I have to cycle to keep the new weight or muscle mass.

[Beast]

Originally posted by Cajunmuscle
Thanks Patrick for the reply, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

Using 1-AD, will I be gaining muscle mass or weight, i.e. Muscle mass is obivious but weight can be added in the wrong places and How often will I have to cycle to keep the new weight or muscle mass.

How about you start your own thread? This thread is for the discussion of M1T's safety.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Cajunmuscle
Thanks Patrick for the reply, perhaps you can answer a question for me.

Using 1-AD, will I be gaining muscle mass or weight, i.e. Muscle mass is obivious but weight can be added in the wrong places and How often will I have to cycle to keep the new weight or muscle mass.

this is a very basic question.

i suggest a cycle of 4 weeks

[DRACOMACHINE]

Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
This is the point I am trying to nail home. This product is not for safety or health. This is a hardcore product, which for some reason is legal and available to people, who have no idea how harmful/helpful it can be.

Look, if your using Meth amphetamines (For example), and you buy Meth from some guys making it out of their garage, don't turn to them and start asking about quality, health, and safety.
This is the same situation, guys got together and methylated some Ph's and Ps's. Guys, like any one of you guys behind the computer. Legal Gear is not a pharmaceutical corp.

Sh!T some of you guys won't eat at a place where the cook looks strange, but will pop some pills made by guys you never met working out of a garage. Now, I will say Legal gear does not work out of their garage, and do not deserve to get bashed by
some of you guys.


__________________

I stand by my past quotes (About safety) If you want safety, do not use this type of product. Many of us were not thinking safety when we were injecting PH/1-T we wanted something that worked! And thank god the 1-T and 4-AD I was injecting worked, without any serious problems. This is about getting something that works, without getting pinched by the cops/feds/who ever.

I was stunned that Patrick used M-1T. But then when you basically develop the Pro-hormone industry you have to try all the different methods of getting the PH/PS into your system.

Patrick said his sides were severe. What I have read and re-searched in most Posts, is M-1T's sides were present in 90% of people's review. Now almost all of the users reported weight gain, and a small few claim to have kept most of that weight.

[Rugby_Ref]

Well, during my first ever 2 week run of M1T, I kept the dosage low, 10mg/day, and gained about 12lbs, 9 of which I've kept.

My BP remained low, 105/60, and other than the fact my sex drive was dead, I felt OK. I did notice more hair falling out, and a bit of lethargy, but nothing that would turn me off from using it again.

I followed up with a PCT of Nolva.

I did not consume alcohol during my cycle.

[DRACOMACHINE]

If you want safety, try using 1-T injectables, or 1-AD/4-AD stack. You do not get the bloated weight gains. I never experienced any fat gains, or water bloat off any of the 1-T cycles. Hallween I did a 1-T/4AD injectable cycle and gained 30 pounds over that span, but I did it on purpose, and it was after a cutting phase so I would of re-gained 20 pounds regardless.

Safety (As safe as you can get screwing with your hormonal system)=1AD or 1-T

Risky=M1-T alone

Sounds good= weeks 1-2 M1-T at 15mg and weeks 1-8 500mg Test Cyp

[Romac]

just subscribing

I'll be using m1t in about 4 months time durring a bulking phase

[DRACOMACHINE]

Originally posted by Romac
just subscribing

I'll be using m1t in about 4 months time durring a bulking phase
<img src=http://rmackie40.home.comcast.net/01062004.jpg>

Heres your pic. You seem to have a healthy/happy family. I hope you do not do anything to mess up your health. Family and safety first Bro.

[chris587]

All I know is that 20mg of M1T made me piss very dark and I sometomes felt side pains. On the other hand 75mg Winstrol ED had no noticable side effects and my piss was clear.

My diet/water was the same for both cycles.

My opinion for what its worth. No more M1T for me!

[bennett]

Anydody yhet says they didn't have side effects on m1t probably did not have blood work done during or after their cycle.I've seen a couple of peoples lab reports while using m1t.They all had very high liver values.One of them had AST and ALT values over 200.One of them had an HDL of 4.I got a bunch o f M1t stashed away that I'm sure I'll take someday,but all I'm saying is just because you don't feel side effects doesn't mean their not there.

[SwingGuru]

I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not when I say that I believe that the darker orangy urine is caused from extreme dehydration. I had the same thing when I was running 30 mg/day whenever I was not drinking a enough water during the cycle.

I can only imagine what would happen if you were on this stuff and sweating a bunch.

Winny doesn't cause the extreme water retention, or much at all for that matter.

[dito]

It's all about what androgen has the best potency with the least ammount of sides. Legal or not.

[Romac]

Originally posted by SwingGuru
I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not when I say that I believe that the darker orangy urine is caused from extreme dehydration. I had the same thing when I was running 30 mg/day whenever I was not drinking a enough water during the cycle.

I can only imagine what would happen if you were on this stuff and sweating a bunch.

Winny doesn't cause the extreme water retention, or much at all for that matter.

yeah i used to have dark as hell piss when i was doing a ton of long-distance bicycling...in hundred mile mountain races after about 70 miles it would sting like a son of a bitch!

most likely extreme dehydration

[Romac]

Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
Heres your pic. You seem to have a healthy/happy family. I hope you do not do anything to mess up your health. Family and safety first Bro.

now i'm famous!

that was taken about 13 months ago. The main reason for the 4 month delay in starting my m1t cycle is we're gonna work on #2! My old lady just stopped breastfeeding and is waiting for her egg factory to crank back up.

My planned cycle is a simple 4-week, low dose (10mg per day), m1t-only cycle. with 4 or 5 weeks pct (most probably nolva), and a month clean, then re-assess my goals, and decide if i wanna do m1t cycle #2.

Maybe by then i can hook up a juice connection instead, and would probably go that route. I have read enough that i could do a completely safe cycle now, but have months and months to read more.

Debate on! (you don't mind if i listen in do you )

But please...people with moral agendas...please start a different thread regarding the morality of juice/ph's and leave this thread to the science.

[kj2833]

two threads of interest

start at page 4
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...=&pagenumber=4

from the beginning
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...=pissing+blood

[Romac]

Originally posted by kj2833
two threads of interest

start at page 4
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...=&pagenumber=4

from the beginning
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...=pissing+blood

well i think people are confusing pissing blood with having a very dark urine...there's a huge difference...as i mentioned before in this very thread:

yeah i used to have dark as hell piss when i was doing a ton of long-distance bicycling...in hundred mile mountain races after about 70 miles it would sting like a son of a bitch!

most likely extreme dehydration

I used to have this reaction with every super-long, super-hard race i did and could see how this could be easily confused with pissing blood...by super-long super hard i mean 6 or 7 hours on a bike riding as hard as i can across 100+ miles with about 7 to 11000 feet in elevation gain.

I am certain the dark, stinging piss was a result of extreme dehydration and went away a few hours after the races, and with me drinking a gallon of water. In such a race there is an extreme amount of lactic acid and cortisol racing through my system as well. I have also had very dark piss after taking certain supplements like endurox tablets.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by DRACOMACHINE
I stand by my past quotes (About safety) If you want safety, do not use this type of product. Many of us were not thinking safety when we were injecting PH/1-T we wanted something that worked! And thank god the 1-T and 4-AD I was injecting worked, without any serious problems. This is about getting something that works, without getting pinched by the cops/feds/who ever.

I was stunned that Patrick used M-1T. But then when you basically develop the Pro-hormone industry you have to try all the different methods of getting the PH/PS into your system.

.

Don't be stunned. I sacrifice my body in the name of science all the time.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by SwingGuru
I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not when I say that I believe that the darker orangy urine is caused from extreme dehydration. I had the same thing when I was running 30 mg/day whenever I was not drinking a enough water during the cycle.

I can only imagine what would happen if you were on this stuff and sweating a bunch.

Winny doesn't cause the extreme water retention, or much at all for that matter.

one cause of dark urine is elevated bilirubin levels, which is an indicator of pretty bad liver dysfunction

hopefully that was not the cause

[Seth Roberts]

M-1-t or any anabolic steroid, legal or illegal, methylated or not, is not candy. They are potent hormonal compounds that do carry risks. I have also personally used M-1-t without any serious side effects -- lethargy was the big one for me. Side effects will almost always parallel dose, duration and potency of the compound since most of what we are talking about (water retention, acne, etc...) are mechanism-based toxicities. I do think that M-1-T can be used safely and does have advantages over other compounds. If anabolic steroids were legal would M-1-T be my first choice? No. But as far as legal compounds go, it is the most effective one so far.
Seth

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
M-1-t or any anabolic steroid, legal or illegal, methylated or not, is not candy. They are potent hormonal compounds that do carry risks. I have also personally used M-1-t without any serious side effects -- lethargy was the big one for me. Side effects will almost always parallel dose, duration and potency of the compound since most of what we are talking about (water retention, acne, etc...) are mechanism-based toxicities. I do think that M-1-T can be used safely and does have advantages over other compounds. If anabolic steroids were legal would M-1-T be my first choice? No. But as far as legal compounds go, it is the most effective one so far.
Seth

dito
RADICAL

Registered: Feb 2002
Location: Alamosa, CO
Posts: 2757


It's all about what androgen has the best potency with the least ammount of sides. Legal or not.

[Seth Roberts]

I don't agree with Dito's opinion. In my case, I can't touch anything illegal because I have a job that precludes using controlled substances. So, legal or not matters for me and I'm sure it does for some other people as well. When PH's are gone, some will go to illegal steroids to satisfy their need, but there are some people who will not do so because they can't risk, their livlihood or their family or for whatever reason.
Seth

[bg330]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
Interesting you say this because my side effects seem to have been related to a massive water retention. If the water retention was the central problem then there would have to be an explanation for that. The kidneys is the first place to look and an interaction with the aldosterone system is a possibility.

This could be a side effect that only effects those that are prone to it. I think that there should be a big warning on the bottle saying to discontinue use if certain symptoms show up. I remember one of the nights when i was taking it i was lying in bed and had such horrible chest pains and sweating that i thought i was having a heart attack and was going to die. i was ready to call the emergency room

I am carrying this conversation over from the Legal Gear thread because I think its more appropriate here..

I think the toxicity associated with the kidneys is the biggest thing to be concerned about. Many of these people are gaining 5-10 pounds of water in a 2 week period off a non-aromatizing steroid. Doesn't that sound a little akward? I do think M1T has a negative effect on the angiotensin-aldosterone system. We know that aldosterone causes high water retention as well as an increase an increase in blood pressure. People don't pay enough to high blood pressure, but it can cause kidney damage, heart enlargement, and headaches (all 3 things seen in steroid users). So now, not only do the kidneys have to work overtime to get rid of the M1T in the blood, but it also gets damaged by the high blood pressure caused by the M1T. Its like a double-wammy on your kidneys. Safe? Hardly..

I see all these people posting blood work that they got done while on, but none of them have any kidney work done. Not even the lab results from SuperSoldier (AM.com) has any BUN or creatinine levels reported. So fact is, you guys don't know how this stuff effects your renal system.

[bg330]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
one cause of dark urine is elevated bilirubin levels, which is an indicator of pretty bad liver dysfunction

hopefully that was not the cause

Could be gallstones..

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
I don't agree with Dito's opinion. In my case, I can't touch anything illegal because I have a job that precludes using controlled substances. So, legal or not matters for me and I'm sure it does for some other people as well. When PH's are gone, some will go to illegal steroids to satisfy their need, but there are some people who will not do so because they can't risk, their livlihood or their family or for whatever reason.
Seth

I did not take ditos comment as meaning the better options are all illegal

For instance, the mestanolone precursor seems like it would be a better risk/benefit ratio product to me. I never tried the precursor but mestanolone itself at 100mg a day worked great and the sides were minimal

[Seth Roberts]

This should not be news to anyone. ALL androgens have a direct effect on the kidneys. The main effect is an increase in renin which catalyzes the conversion of angiotensinogen to angiotensin I. If a compounds activates the androgen receptor, then it also has a deleterious effect on the kidney, the degree of which is related to its potency as an androgen receptor agonist.

[bg330]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
This should not be news to anyone. ALL androgens have a direct effect on the kidneys. The main effect is an increase in renin which catalyzes the conversion of angiotensinogen to angiotensin I. If a compounds activates the androgen receptor, then it also has a deleterious effect on the kidney, the degree of which is related to its potency as an androgen receptor agonist.

Seth,

What do you think about use an ACE Inhibitor while using M1T?