Coffee & Caffein - negative effect on mass ?

[Gold]

Hi,

Do any of you have any links to any articles or research, which have been done on how cofee & caffein impacts on muscles ?

Ive heard roumors that it has an negative effect on building mass - but the articles i have read which has been backuped by sceintific studys, says the opposite, that in fact it has a positive effect on muscle-endurancy ?

[Rocckk]

For hard-gainers like me, I try to avoid the stuff for two reasons:

1) It bumps up your metabolism, requiring more calories to bulk, and
2) Most of the "foods" containing caffeine aren't really that great for you (chocolate, soda, coffee, etc.)

[ReSpAwN DeMoN]

I've heard that cafeine is not the prime choice for BB'ers...

Read somewhere that it dilates blood vessels which is not what we want. Restrict nutrient delivery to the muscles. Not good if you ask me.

[Rocckk]

Originally posted by ReSpAwN DeMoN
I've heard that cafeine is not the prime choice for BB'ers...

Read somewhere that it dilates blood vessels which is not what we want. Restrict nutrient delivery to the muscles. Not good if you ask me.

Coffee also makes you **** your brains out (diahrrea) and dehydrates you.

I work 40-50 hours a week at a stressful office job where coffee is omnipresent, but I try really really hard to avoid it.

[Romac]

coffee and caffeine have a negative effect on fat mass, and i read something somewhere about caffeine increasing our muscle's ability/need to utilize calcium which increases muscle performance but means calcium supplementation is a must.

[Danz]

On the contrary, Caffeine can be good.

1) Caffeine stimulates the Cental Nervous System, which makes it a stimulant. If you were to take it prior to a workout, you would increaese your chances of performing better due to stimulating your CNS.

2) Caffeine is also a thermogenic, causing you to burn more fat calories by transporting fat cells out from the adipose tissue for utilization.

BTW, there has been absolutley NO documented studies of adverse effect on muscle mass by Caffeine consumption.

[Rocckk]

Originally posted by Danz

BTW, there has been absolutley NO documented studies of adverse effect on muscle mass by Caffeine consumption. [/B]

Gimme a break man. The **** bumps up your metabolism and dehydrates you. Combine that with an ectomorph who's trying to bulk (like myself), and I GUARANTEE that it INHIBITS muscle growth and thus muscle mass.

Use your ****ing brain.

[Danz]

Originally posted by Rocckk
Gimme a break man. The **** bumps up your metabolism and dehydrates you. Combine that with an ectomorph who's trying to bulk (like myself), and I GUARANTEE that it INHIBITS muscle growth and thus muscle mass.

Use your ****ing brain.

You don't know what you're talking about. Coffee aint THAT powerful. You'd have to drink an entire coffee factory before you started having negative effects. I read somewhere that Caffeine only raises your BMR by 50 calories.

So........STFU, dork.

[agrippa]

I remember reading somewhere that caffiene inhibited the uptake of creatine supplements. Anyone else read that, or am I just imagining it?

[Gold]

Could you please post some references ? i am not trying to be arrogant in any way - but the "ive heard", or the "ive read" isnt really useful - because i hear tonnes of them in the gym.

Ive got alot of references on studies, and all of them which have studied the effects on the muscles, tells that there is either no difference, or a small >increase< in endurance - which is a positve sideeffect.

Were talking about a moderate intake, ex. like a normal cofeedrinker.

[Danz]

Originally posted by agrippa
I remember reading somewhere that caffiene inhibited the uptake of creatine supplements. Anyone else read that, or am I just imagining it?

Yes, you're just imagining it. Creatine has it's own bodily transport system called C-1, a different delivery system to caffeine.

[sammy21]

Originally posted by Rocckk
For hard-gainers like me, I try to avoid the stuff for two reasons:

1) It bumps up your metabolism, requiring more calories to bulk, and
2) Most of the "foods" containing caffeine aren't really that great for you (chocolate, soda, coffee, etc.)

On the other hand-
1) It's good for cutting, especially for people like myeslf who are meso/endos
2) you could always drink diet coke, i have it once in a while

[agrippa]

I knew I had read it somewhere. Here it is (note the last sentence of the abstract):

Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.

by Vandenberghe, K; Gillis, N; Van Leemputte, M; Van Hecke, P; Vanstapel, F; Hespel, P - Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Department of Kinesiology, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium.

Journal of applied physiology: respiratory, environmental and exercise physiology, 1996 Feb, 80(2):452-7

Abstract:
This study aimed to compare the effects of oral creatine (Cr) supplementation with creatine supplementation in combination with caffeine (Cr+C) on muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) level and performance in healthy male volunteers (n = 9). Before and after 6 days of placebo, Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1), or Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1) + C (5 mg x kg-1 x day-1) supplementation, 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the gastrocnemius muscle and a maximal intermittent exercise fatigue test of the knee extensors on an isokinetic dynamometer were performed. The exercise consisted of three consecutive maximal isometric contractions and three interval series of 90, 80, and 50 maximal voluntary contractions performed with a rest interval of 2 min between the series. Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr+C increased (P < 0.05) muscle PCr concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the 2-min rest between the exercise bouts. The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.


It was a small study on only one muscle, though. So who knows.

Here's the link: http://www.csa.com/htbin/linkabst.cg...&firstpage=452

[Gold]

agrippa:
I knew I had read it somewhere. Here it is (note the last sentence of the abstract):

Interesting article - if caffein has a negative effect on the use of creatine, wouldnt this then inflict on the creatine which we normally also get in our food (fish / meat etc.) ?

Thereby meaning that i HAS a negative effect.

[Danz]

Don't believe everything you read. I once read that Creatine Monohydrate causes permanent impotence

[Romac]

Originally posted by Gold
Could you please post some references ? i am not trying to be arrogant in any way - but the "ive heard", or the "ive read" isnt really useful - because i hear tonnes of them in the gym.

How about instead of me finding references for a contribution i shouldn't even bothered making because there is tons of info on caffeine all over the place, you go find some references.

Caffeine increases calcium use by muscles which increases muscular performance but means calcium supplementation is needed...i read it somewhere...go find your own references.

[agrippa]

Originally posted by Danz
Don't believe everything you read. I once read that Creatine Monohydrate causes permanent impotence

Yeah, I'm not prone to believe everything I read, either. But we're talking about the Journal of Applied Physiology, which is a reputable, referreed journal; and I found this particular article referenced in several other reputable publications, including the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. So it's at least worth thinking about - especially since so many of the over-the-counter fat burners are so heavy in caffeine.

[Gold]

Romac:
How about instead of me finding references for a contribution i shouldn't even bothered making because there is tons of info on caffeine all over the place, you go find some references.

Caffeine increases calcium use by muscles which increases muscular performance but means calcium supplementation is needed...i read it somewhere...go find your own references.

Well sorry to hurt your feelings - hope you understand why im asking for references ?

It is quite important for me, if you read what you read in an addvertisement in FLEX magazine, or if it was a sceintific study.

[FiveOneNine]

Originally posted by Danz
You don't know what you're talking about. Coffee aint THAT powerful. You'd have to drink an entire coffee factory before you started having negative effects. I read somewhere that Caffeine only raises your BMR by 50 calories.

So........STFU, dork.

Caffeine (and coffee) is diuretic. It flushes water out of your system. Hydration is key for gaining, therefore, avoid it.

[Romac]

Originally posted by Gold
Well sorry to hurt your feelings - hope you understand why im asking for references ?

It is quite important for me, if you read what you read in an addvertisement in FLEX magazine, or if it was a sceintific study.

Oh my feelings aren't hurt. I just always get sucked into discussions on these boards that result in me searching for hours to find references to back up my statements.

just go to the bb.com main site a do a search for caffeine articles...i seem to remember there being quite a few.

[Gold]

Romac> okay fair enough, can understand your point.

I will do some seaching.

[alan aragon]

no need to trip over coffee/caffeine unless you drink exorbitant amounts, like a pot a day.

people tend to over-fixate & get all bent out of shape over relatively insignificant dietary factors.

the LD-50 (lethal dose for 50% of test animals) translated to human consumption equivalents is somewhere between 100-200 cups in a single sitting. the amount that will cross IOC doping thresholds is appx 10-12 cups of coffee.

coffee's inhibitory effect on supplemental creatine's effectiveness is unlikely to occur as long as their intake is separated by 1-2 hrs, after which time blood levels are significantly less. i personally have not felt any reduction in performance or gains when my coffee & creatine intake are separated at this range. noticable inhibition is likely to be minimal in chronic coffee drinkers whose adaptation & "caffeine conditioning" is in full swing. in other words, if you've been a coffe drinker for a while, creatine will still work great. but if you all of a sudden started combining cre + coffee as a non-coffee drinker to begin with, you'll see a lot less of cre's potential benefit.

i personally wouldn't worry about it either way, since coffee/caffeine won't inhibit cre's cell swelling effects & hence its ability to throw a little extra bodyweight on the struggling skinny dudes

[Romac]

"Caffeine increases brain activity and alertness, improves muscle performance, stimulates release of intracellular calcium, leading to greater force and stronger muscular contraction. Caffeine stimulates the release of free fatty acids from the liver and muscle, helping with weight-loss/maintenance and improving endurance. " http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/planet43.htm

[thanatopsis]

I'm gonna supplement a fat burner w/ caffeine during my cutting cycle... I've read you can burn up to 30% more calories a day with caffeine alone. This way I can keep my same diet, so I won't be hungry, and still burn fat -- with the addition of cardio on top of the supp of course.

But I agree that you should avoid it during bulking! Even for a natural Endo like me I've got to consume 3,500 calories a day to gain weight (10 lbs in a little over 6 weeks), I'd hate to have to eat more than that!

Plus... I've heard caffeine interferes with creatine, not good for bulking eh?

[Eric_FXST]

Originally posted by thanatopsis
Plus... I've heard caffeine interferes with creatine, not good for bulking eh?

I've read that caffeine only interferes with creatine if you are using it for endurance-purposes. If using creatine for strength gains, it will not.
You can figure out why, I only know what I read.

[pbradish]

Originally posted by Danz
On the contrary, Caffeine can be good.

1) Caffeine stimulates the Cental Nervous System, which makes it a stimulant. If you were to take it prior to a workout, you would increaese your chances of performing better due to stimulating your CNS.

2) Caffeine is also a thermogenic, causing you to burn more fat calories by transporting fat cells out from the adipose tissue for utilization.

BTW, there has been absolutley NO documented studies of adverse effect on muscle mass by Caffeine consumption.

^ I've always advocated this as well. ^

[DeadlyDan]

Originally posted by Danz
You don't know what you're talking about. Coffee aint THAT powerful. You'd have to drink an entire coffee factory before you started having negative effects. I read somewhere that Caffeine only raises your BMR by 50 calories.

So........STFU, dork.

Yes, That is enough to lose 5 lb's in 1 year, considering most peopel gain like 1-2 pounds a year, that is kind of a big difference over a 10 year period.

Anyway, Caffeine helps me build more muscle.
WHy? because i can do that extra 10 percent more when i take caffeine, and as we all know it's that extra 10 percent more weight, or more reps where u really destroy muscles, which in turns starts muscle recovery, and new added muscle.

ALso, It acts much like ATP, meaning you don't need to consume as much sugar to get the same energy levels.

Basically, it aids in building muscle due to heavier weight training, and aids in slight fat loss as well.

[sirlancelot]

Originally posted by Rocckk
Gimme a break man. The **** bumps up your metabolism and dehydrates you. Combine that with an ectomorph who's trying to bulk (like myself), and I GUARANTEE that it INHIBITS muscle growth and thus muscle mass.

Use your ****ing brain.

Man, you must have been the debate KING in high school. Who can compete with you?

LOL though, you still didn't refute his assertion, which was "there has been absolutley NO documented studies of adverse effect on muscle mass by Caffeine consumption."

[JingleAllTheWAY]

A new product by BSN called NO-XPLODE contains a good amount of both creatine and caffeine. While on this product i made very good gains, so i doubt caffeine has negative effects on muscle hypertrophy, nor does it effect the absorbtion of creatine. (I'm sure BSN would research this before combining caffeine and creatine into a product).

[JB20]

i was reading an article on bb.com and the writer did say for ectomorphs to stay away from caffeine