Wll there be no more Ephedra??

[Fit For Life]

So today while checking to see why Premeier got rid of the Red Bullet, I was told that insurance companies are charging outlandish amounts for supp companies to carry Ephedra based products.

I was told that Sportpharma dropped Thermadrene because the insurance comp wanted to charge them 4 MILLION per year.

I also think regular Xenadrine will be phased out, and most ephedra based products unless for some reason 4mill is pocket change to a company. That's why there is EFX. My next guess is that MuscleTech will also reformulate, as is Twin Labs. Twin Labs has money problems any how, so it would be wise for them to ditch the diet fuel, and ripped.

Any one else have any info on this, or thoughts?

fit

[D&G]

Ephedra is already banned in Europe so it could well happen

[Sabercat]

Ephedra Sales Continue Despite Insurance Costs, Lawsuits
Friday, April 12, 2002


BY DAVID EVANS
BLOOMBERG NEWS

LOS ANGELES -- Herbalife International Inc. continues to sell weight-loss products containing ephedra, despite lawsuits blaming the substance for customer deaths, and a sixfold increase in product-liability insurance expense.
Herbalife, which faces two wrongful death suits blaming its ephedra weight-loss products, still includes the herb in its line of diet products, which made up 42.7 percent of last year's $1.66 billion in sales, according to its annual report.
Late Wednesday, the company agreed to be taken private for $685 million, or $19.50 a share, by Whitney & Co. LLC and Golden Gate Capital Inc.
Robert Hartwig, chief economist for the Insurance Information Institute, said ephedra insurance premiums have increased along with adverse incident reports and lawsuits. "You have a situation where the house is on fire," said Hartwig. "If your house was already on fire, it's very unlikely we'd write a policy."
Herbalife said in its federal filing that its product-liability insurance premium soared from $400,000 in 2000 to $2.5 million last year, even as its deductible increased tenfold to $5 million, and its coverage limit fell by $10 million to $40 million.
Ephedrine, the active ingredient in ephedra, also called ma huang, is a chemical cousin of amphetamines and increases both blood pressure and heart rate, say experts. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has linked ephedra to hundreds of adverse reactions and dozens of deaths.
Herbalife, based in Los Angeles, said in its annual report it might discontinue selling ephedra products because insurance is "becoming prohibitively expensive." It said the company had "substantial defenses" to the lawsuits and said "they will not have a material impact on us."
Other public companies, including three based in Utah, say they sell ephedra products. Advantage Marketing Systems Inc. received 52 percent of its $28.4 million of 2001 revenue from ephedra. The company's product liability insurance excludes ephedra claims, according to its annual report. The company didn't indicate any ephedra lawsuits in its annual report.
Reggie Cook, chief financial officer, said the coverage would be too costly. "If I paid $100,000, I could get $100,000 of coverage," he said.
Twinlab Corp. of Hauppauge, N.Y., faces a lawsuit over a customer death following use of its Metabolift ephedra product. Chattem Inc. of Chattanooga, Tenn., cautioned in its annual report it might not have sufficient insurance coverage to cover sales of Dexatrim after its policy expires on May 31.
Weider Nutrition International Inc., which distributes diet products from its Salt Lake City headquarters, is defending three ephedra lawsuits. Daniel Thomson, Weider's general counsel, didn't return telephone calls. William Rizzardi, Twinlab's chief information officer, and Scott Sloat, Chattem's controller, declined to comment.
Four other companies that sell ephedra products don't indicate any lawsuits in their annual reports. Nutraceutical International Corp. said its liability insurance excludes ephedra, and the Park City-based company said it recently halted sales of some ephedra products. Les Brown, chief financial officer, didn't return telephone calls.
Mannatech Inc. of Coppell, Texas, reported selling ephedra products. Steve Fenstermacher, chief financial officer, didn't return phone calls.
Both Natures Sunshine Products Inc. of Provo, Utah, and NBTY Inc. of Bohemia, N.Y., sell ephedra supplements. Harvey Kamil, NBTY's chief executive, didn't return telephone calls. Natures Sunshine Products executives weren't available.

[1fast400]

I think EFX is done due to Texas and South Dakota. I also think this is preparing for the worse case scenario. Since they have a product out, if by worse case scenario they pull ephedra, they already have a product ready. With Xenadrine being GNC's top seller every month, I think they can withstand the insurance, although you never know. Also, as you know, there is no denying that there is a market out there for ephedra free formulas. God knows what muscletech will do. They will encapsulate dirt and say it is 54,340,923,409% better than ephedra.

[supnut]

hell you can still get Ephedrine HCL at every local gas station in my area. I never gain enough wieght to need to cut but you getter believe ill be stocking up if it gets banned.

[Dante B.]

Nonsense. We need the Government to protect us from our own ignorance. And surely, this has nothing to do with the fact that we should not be held responsible for our own misuse of such things. As we know, Ephedrine makes unhealthy people healthy, which is why I use it.

The average person should have the ability to sue anyone for anything with moral (and legal) impunity. Insurance companies should bear the cost of such lawsuits out of their benevolance to Mankind, since it is not the average persons fault that the average person is a member of the Mob of litigation mania and Government benevolance.

Thus ends my tangent for the day.

[Dante B.]

And to further spit on the issue: Rand said that the 20'th Century was the "Age of Envy". This 21st Century will be the "Age of the Victim Class".

[Sabercat]

Dante's suffering withdrawl symptons just thinking about it! With Avant labs discontinuing Yohimbe, Ephedra being withdrawn from the market, poor Dante's core body temperature will be what? 85 degrees? You could always become a Chinese farmer !

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by Sabercat
Dante's suffering withdrawl symptons just thinking about it!

My friend, the World should only hope that it is never at the mercy of my discontent (Sabercat ,like you, I enjoy that book. If I could only live up to half of those dictates, I would have a more tranquil existance )

[Manteca]

I agree it is certain that all forms of ephedra and all alkaloids from PPA to pseudoephedrine to ephedrine hcl will be totally illegal for sale eventually. Probably not scheduled but maybe listed. I don't understand why except that it must all come back to money.

Epheda/ephedrine is slowly being demonized everywhere for everything from meth production to alleged strokes etc... The NFL, the military, and countless other organizations have issued statements or banned it outright for their members based entirely on well **** I don't know what. It's a very sad situation but I feel that ephedrine is extremely safe and effective, this is the reason I feel it is being slowly removed from the market. It is obvious that pharmaceutical sales suffer as a result of its' existance but I really don't understand how that gets around other groups. I know one thing, like I said before, it's not really about our safety, it's about money.

[Manteca]

anyway sorry for my incoherant rambling

[Sabercat]

Originally posted by Manteca
It is obvious that pharmaceutical sales suffer as a result of its' existance but I really don't understand how that gets around other groups. I know one thing, like I said before, it's not really about our safety, it's about money.

That is exactly why this is happening. I wrote a 15 page research paper on the FDA's attempt to ban Ephedra, for my statistics class about 2 months ago. When I get home tonight I'll pull it out and post some of the research I came across. Basically it boils down to the FDA and major pharmacueticals have a revolving door employment policy, so the FDA is very suseptable to pressure from the drug manufacturers. The major pharmacueticals have spent boatloads of cash on their Beta3 obesity drug, only to find out it is not any more effective than ECA. That is why the big push to get rid of Ephedra, then the Beta3 will be the only effective, legal, weight loss drug on the market. Expected price of Beta3 is $3.00 per pill. *** Beta3 refers to the receptor, not the new Syntrax product with the same name ***
Now some of your are wondering what the hell the FDA and Ephedra have to do with statistics?? Well, the argument of the paper was that it was statistically negligent for the FDA to attempt to ban Ephedra based off a few Adverse reaction reports, not to mention their recommeded daily dose for the US population of 300 million was determined from a sample of 3 people. I got an A

[Scatocephalus]

Pretty soon we'll start seeing DEA raids on homegrown Ma Huang operations.

If it gets banned I'll seriously consider growing my own... Hell, one plant could probably keep you supplied with 'personal use' quantities.

[Fit For Life]

Yeah, I forgot about the meth deal. If you are caught here with a certain amount of Ephedra, cold medicine, etc, and it can be proven your intent was to manufacture meth, you are FUKED.

Maybe it is also a way of stopping some meth production. Especially if you can't get a hold of it. Just a thought.

fit

[Dante B.]

So you mean to tell me that the Humble Servants of the Public that we trust our choices to are nothing more than self-serving Janus faced bastards?

[Richie]

i've heard a whisper lately that smoking is PROVEN to be harmful to your health......even lead to death!!!!!! alcohol has also been PROVEN to cause problems with liver and lead to other minor things like domestic violence & drunk driving fatalities etc. (note the sarcasm here) are these on the priority list of substances to be banned as well???has ephedra been PROVEN to have have been the major cause of death in ANY case at all? if the government was so concerned with our health then you'd be buying ciggaretts from some guy wearing sunglasses and a long coat up a secluded alley. the pharmeceutical companies are in their pocket and their sales are dropping on crap like xenical etc. their priorities are so out of whack i wouldn't let them operate my toaster without strict supervision.Richie

[admin]

Most comprehensive study ever done on Ephedra... from Harvard. Shows it is SAFE and BENEFICIAL for fat loss. HECK YEAH!

Full story:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ephnews.htm

Ryan

[-Atheist-]

Originally posted by dantebattista
Nonsense. We need the Government to protect us from our own ignorance. And surely, this has nothing to do with the fact that we should not be held responsible for our own misuse of such things. As we know, Ephedrine makes unhealthy people healthy, which is why I use it.

That holds no truth, the only thing that changes an unhealthy person into a healthy person is diet, and a will to change ones self, not a supp. Thats like saying, whey protien is what makes my muscles go from 11 inch arms to 18inch

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by -Atheist-


That holds no truth, the only thing that changes an unhealthy person into a healthy person is diet, and a will to change ones self, not a supp. Thats like saying, whey protien is what makes my muscles go from 11 inch arms to 18inch

It was sarcasm, my friend Sadly, however, the average person is not being sarcastic when they speak in such terms.

[Sabercat]

Originally posted by dantebattista
So you mean to tell me that the Humble Servants of the Public that we trust our choices to are nothing more than self-serving Janus faced bastards?

In a word, Yes.

[sahlegia2000]

NO way will ephedra be banned, these companies have lobbiests with virtually endless pockets to talk up state and local congressman, Ibelieve the health industry is only 2nd to Auto manufactures in lobbiests in Congress they may be first at this point,, I dont see ephedra banned in this democratic society too soon, but if it is, look for andro, and basically questionable/ grey market supplement to go shortly afterwards, Just my 2 cents..

[Sabercat]

Abstract
The United States Food and Drug Administration succumbing to its own press induced hype, and outside pressure from prescription drug companies recommended dosing rules and label guidelines for the Chinese herb Ma Huang (Ephedra) to the United States Congress. These rules and guidelines where decided upon not by scientific statistical inference, but rather by sophomoric attempts at data manipulation with complete disregard for accepted statistical practices. Although this legislation was derailed by the United States General Accounting Office after it examined the FDA data, the NFL banned the substance and Health Canada just recently went ahead and enacted laws based upon the FDA’s flawed data set.



The Food and Drug Administration verses Ephedra, a haphazard application of statistics.



Ephedra (Ma Huang) is an herbal ingredient found in dietary supplements. Dietary supplements containing Ephedra include ephedrine alkaloids, which are complex combinations of nitrogen and oxygen. Based on surveys conducted in 1999, between 12 and 17 million Americans consume more than three billion servings of Ephedra products every year (1). The most common and recognizable dietary supplement containing Ephedra is Metobolife 356, however there are currently over 84 different products on the market with Ephedra as an ingredient.
Ephedra is marketed and used for a number of different ailments. Initially used as an allergy relief medicine, Ephedrine alkaloids are now used as energy and endurance enhancers, appetite suppressants, and most commonly as a thermogenic. The most popular use of Ephedra is in the Ephedrine, Caffeine, and Aspirin (ECA) combination, called a stack. The ECA stack is commonly doctor recommended to the morbidly obese when other options fail. It is also used extensively by athletes for fat loss and as an energy enhancer.
The most common dosing for an individual taking an ECA stack is 20mg Ephedra Combined with 200mg Caffeine, two to three times a day. This regimen was proven to be the most effective dosing schedule based on studies performed by The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University in Copenhagen, Denmark (2, 3). The 20mg / 200mg combination was found to have a “supra-additive thermogenic synergism” (2). In other words, the 20mg /200mg dosage ratio causes a synergistic effect where 1+1=3. It needs to be noted that these two elements must be combined to have any weight loss application; “the ephedrine / caffeine combination is effective, while caffeine and ephedrine separately are ineffective for the treatment of human obesity” (5). Aspirin is usually used in a 15mg dose, and has been found to extend the thermogenic effect of the ephedrine and caffeine (4).
The ECA stack works by causing the sympathetic nervous system to release both adrenalin and noradrenalin. This starts the thermogenic cascade by initially elevating blood pressure, heartbeat, and causing vasodilatation. This mild stimulant side effect fades with regular use, however the thermogenic effect continues. Many people take a half dose (10mg ephedrine /100mg caffeine) for the first couple of weeks and report a mild increase in energy, some appetite suppression, and no unpleasant side effects. Starting at a full dose, “the side-effects are minor and transient and no clinically relevant withdrawal symptoms have been observed . . . Eighty percent of symptoms lasted less than 4 weeks, 13% lasted 4-8 weeks, 5% lasted 8-12 weeks and the remaining 2% lasted 12-16 weeks.”(7). unfortunately it is this stimulant side effect that has caused all the concern. The NFL banned Ephedra in September of 2001 citing the death of Vikings Lineman Korey Stringer. However, Korey Stringers autopsy released a month prior had revealed no evidence of ephedrine, or any performance enhancing drug (8); it instead showed that Stringer died of severe heat exhaustion. The NFL and the Minnesota Vikings are currently being sued by the Stringer estate for negligence.
Ephedra did not become widely known or used until dexfenfluramine (also known as Phen Fen) was banned in 1997, because it was found to cause liver damage. Unfortunately the dexfenfluramine situation caused suspicion to be cast that ephedrine may be harmful as well, even though the two are not related. This is due in large part to the publicity campaign put forth by the major pharmaceutical companies, who are in the final stages of research on the new prescription obesity drug, Beta3. This research has lasted years and cost millions of dollars, but the Beta3 drugs have not proven any more effective than the non-prescription ECA stack (6). The pharmaceutical companies in an effort to save their bottom line and bring Beta3 to market, at an estimated $3.00 per pill, put pressure on the FDA to ban the ECA stack. This pressure was effective in part because the FDA and major pharmaceutical companies have a long standing revolving-door employment history. The FDA moved to ban the ECA stack with the introduction docket 95N-0304 to the Federal Register.
The FDA started its effort to ban ephedrine by issuing a public warning, and asking anyone who thought they may have had ephedrine side effects to call the FDA’s MedWatch reporting system and submit an Adverse Effect Report (AER). Over the next three years the FDA only received 800 reports of possible adverse effects from ephedrine, this sample is only .0047% of the population using the drug. Compounding matters, the AER system is not verified, the FDA does not perform follow up investigation to ensure the adverse effect was caused by the drug and not some pre-existing condition. In fact no follow up is done to even conclude that the event happened.
Feeling pressure from the pharmaceutical companies however, the FDA had to act. Realizing it did not have enough data to support a claim of wide spread problems, the FDA took the data from the initial University of Copenhagen studies (2, 3) and twisted it to meet their needs. In the submission to congress the FDA claimed that the above study showed “More side effects were noted in the treatment groups compared to the placebo control group in both those subjects continuing in, and those withdrawing from, the trial. Study results showed that 60 percent of the ephedrine and caffeine treatment group, 44 percent of the ephedrine treatment group, and 36 percent of the caffeine treatment group experienced side effects compared to 24 percent of the placebo control group. These results were statistically significant (p<0.05)” (9). In order to come up with the 60% figure, the FDA included appetite suppression, headaches, and fatigue (9) in its list of side-effects. When informed of the FDA’s distortion of the original study the author responded: “Dr. Astrup also pointed to an FDA report on the published literature as misrepresenting data in his study on the safety of the two ingredients to instead support FDA's allegations concerning Ephedra. "I think our data and results are mischaracterized and the presentation is flawed and distorted," said Dr. Astrup. "It's giving a very negative picture of the safety profile of the combination of ephedrine/caffeine, which is not supported by our research" (11). The FDA also completely ignored the International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic Disorders report that studied the rate of side effects (10). “During the last two years defined doses daily more than 9.6 million of the EC combination have been used in Denmark, but only 86 adverse drug reactions have been reported to the health authorities”. That is a rate of .0009% verses the FDA reported 60% with a p<0.05.
The FDA needed to justify its proposed regulation based on how the Adverse Effect Reports represented the ephedrine consuming population. They knew they received an average of 174 reports per year, but assumed (12) that was only 10% of the actual cases, so to start with, they multiplied all their numbers by 10. The FDA also knew that not all the cases reported actually occurred, they again assumed that between 27% and 90% of their reports actually happened. However, with the range of .27 to .90, the FDA arbitrarily chose the point value .80 to represent the number that occurred. The FDA also knew that of the actual events that occurred, not all of them where related to ephedrine consumption. They assumed that between 25% and 90% of the events that actually occurred had some relation to the consumption of Ephedra. Given this data the FDA again arbitrarily chose the point value of .80 to represent the entire range. Based on these poor assumptions, and failure to use common statistical methods to figure standard deviation and median values, the FDA reported that its proposed rules would eliminate 1110 adverse reactions per year.

[Sabercat]

The FDA now felt it had justified regulating ephedrine, but still needed to come up with its recommended dosing guidelines. The FDA went back to its AERs to find data to support a dosing amount. Due to incomplete data in the majority of the reports, the FDA settled on 13 reports to base a dosage guideline. The FDA indicated in its proposed rule that of the 13 “10 to 73 percent might not be related to the consumption of ephedrine” (9). The FDA was getting ready to set a dosage amount for a population of 285 million, based on a sample of four! Apparently not concerned with the statistical implications of such a move the FDA went ahead and examined its AERs and came up with a dose of 8mg. The 8mg figure was arrived at not by scientific study but by merely finding the AER with the lowest reported dose, 8.8mg (9), and rounding down to the nearest whole number. Just in case that dosing amount had not eliminated ephedrine as a viable product, the FDA decided to ban combinations as well: “All combination products containing Ephedra/ephedrine together with stimulants (e.g. caffeine) and other ingredients which might increase the effect of Ephedra/ephedrine in the body” (9). Remember that ephedrine without caffeine is worthless as an obesity drug (5).
The FDA submitted its proposed rules for approval amongst much fanfare and publicity, claiming it was protecting the American public. The next day the Small Business Association of America requested the General Accounting Office to conduct an audit of the FDA’s proposed rules and their procedures for coming up with the dosage guidelines. The GAO delivered its 79 page report to Congress in July 1999 stating that the FDA’s practices where “sophomoric” (12). The FDA was forced to withdraw its proposed rules, and has yet to submit a replacement. Only after the FDA was forced to review its data and statistical methods did it admit that the number of adverse reactions was more likely 17 than the 1110 it originally reported. However, Health Canada under the same pressure from pharmaceutical companies as the FDA, incredibly went ahead and adopted the FDA rules verbatim in January of 2002, even after the GAO report.
The FDA is still trying to establish some regulatory authority over ephedrine, however after the GAO’s scathing report on their use of fraudulent data and corrupt statistical practices they have lost much support. All this still leaves us with this question: why would government regulators commit scientific fraud use deceitful statistical practices and scare obese people away from the one treatment that is actually proven to be safe and effective? An FDA Dietary Task Force Report (June 15, 1993) was candid about the agency's motivation: "The task force considered many issues in its deliberations including to ensure that the existence of dietary supplements on the market does not act as a disincentive for drug development.". One could add: “and to ensure FDA employees have ample employment opportunities at the major pharmaceutical companies”.

References
1. Ephedra Education Council (2002). Media Fact Sheet. The Facts about Ephedra, 1.
2. Astrup A and Toubro S "Thermogenic, metabolic, and cardiovascular responses to ephedrine and caffeine in man" Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1993, Vol 17 Suppl 1 Pg S41-3, PMID: 0008384179.
3. Astrup A, Toubro S, Cannon S, Hein P, Madsen J "Thermogenic synergism between ephedrine and caffeine in healthy volunteers: a double-blind, placebo-controlled study" Metabolism 1991, Vol 40 (3), Pg 323-9, PMID: 0002000046.
4. Mowrey, Daniel B. Ph.D. "Fat Management : The Thermogenic Factor" Victory Publications, 1994. ISBN: 0-936261-07-2.
5. Astrup A, Breum L, Toubro S, Hein P, Quaade F "The effect and safety of an ephedrine/caffeine compound compared to ephedrine, caffeine and placebo in obese subjects on an energy restricted diet. A double blind trial" Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1992, Vol 16 (4), Pg 269-77. PMID: 0001318281.
6. Dulloo AG and Stock MJ "Ephedrine in the treatment of obesity" Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1993, Vol 17 Suppl 1 Pg S1-2, PMID: 0008384172
7. Toubro S, Astrup A, Breum L, Quaade F "The acute and chronic effects of ephedrine/caffeine mixtures on energy expenditure and glucose metabolism in humans" Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1993, Vol 17 Suppl 3 Pg S73-7; discussion S82. PMID: 0008124407.
8. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...anks_stringer/
9. http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/fr97064a.html
10. Breum L, Pedersen JK, Ahlstrom F, and Frimodt-Moller J. "Comparison of an ephedrine/caffeine combination and dexfenfluramine in the treatment of obesity. A double-blind multi-centre trial in general practice." Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1994 Feb, 18(2):99-103, PMID: 0008148931.
11. Ephedra Education Council "Ephedra's safety and benefits confirmed" September 14, 2000.
12. United States General Accounting Office, “Dietary Supplements, Uncertanties in Analyses Underlying FDA’s Proposed Rule on Ephedrine Alkaloids”, July 1999.

[Dante B.]

There is no such thing as an "endless pocket" of money. And with regards to money, if you view things as a matter of money then what makes you believe that the Drug (pres) industry does not have than much more financial power?

[phattony]

"Remember that ephedrine without caffeine is worthless as an obesity drug."

Does anyone else believe this to be a bull shi* statement. In my experience there are other compounds that work synergistically with E such as clen, yohimbine, UA, thyroid hormones, synE, and green tea. what do you guys think of the assertion that E is worthless for weight loss without caffeine.

[Sabercat]

Originally posted by phattony
"Remember that ephedrine without caffeine is worthless as an obesity drug."

Does anyone else believe this to be a bull shi* statement. In my experience there are other compounds that work synergistically with E such as clen, yohimbine, thyroid hormones, synE, and green tea. what do you guys think of the assertion that E is worthless for weight loss without caffeine.

5. Astrup A, Breum L, Toubro S, Hein P, Quaade F "The effect and safety of an ephedrine/caffeine compound compared to ephedrine, caffeine and placebo in obese subjects on an energy restricted diet. A double blind trial" Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1992, Vol 16 (4), Pg 269-77. PMID: 0001318281

[Baby Huey]

Just a word to the wise for those of you who are thinking of "stocking up" on ephedra. Many of the major chain stores, like Wal-Mart, K-Mart, etc. will only sell you limited quanitities of ephedrine and ephedra-containing products, like Sudafed. If you try to buy more than 2 boxes where I live (I think it's 2), the registers will shut down and the police will be notified immediately. There is also a chance that if you go into a quickie mart and try to buy several bottles of ephedrine at once, they may call the police and notify them. This is because law enforcement officials know that the vast majority of people who purchase large quantities ephedra-containing products are not doing so to get their bodyfat down to 7%, but rather are doing so for the purpose of manufacturing meth, which is some very dangerous sh*t that has killed a lot of innocent people.

Like Fit For Life points out, manufacturing methamphetamine is a very serious crime, or at least it is here in Kentucky, where it is a Class B Felony punishable by 10-20 years in jail. And to prove manufacturing, the authorities just have to show that you possessed the materials used to make methamphetamine (such as ephedrine) with the intent to manufacture. For all this, you can thank the dipsh*ts that manufacture methamphetamine and use this stuff in the process.

I post this information because it could lead to a very embarassing situation if you were to walk into the store and innocently try to purchase some goodies before it gets banned just so that you can stay ripped. Here in Kentucky, meth manufacturing is a HUGE problem, as it is in many other states. I'm sure in some places around the country, they couldn't care less, but in others, places that sell the stuff are on high alert. Beware.

[Manteca]

who really cares if a bunch of speed addicts die, **** em' sabercat, I would like to tell you that is one awesome paper you wrote, I am very impressed. I wish you would go into some more detail for us about the "revolving door employment history" situation for us/me. I would really like to hear more. Seriously I thoroughly enjoyed your paper, very well written, very, very informative.

[phattony]

Originally posted by Sabercat


5. Astrup A, Breum L, Toubro S, Hein P, Quaade F "The effect and safety of an ephedrine/caffeine compound compared to ephedrine, caffeine and placebo in obese subjects on an energy restricted diet. A double blind trial" Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1992, Vol 16 (4), Pg 269-77. PMID: 0001318281

I was not accusing you of making a false statement but rather Questioning the cited reports validity at this time. It is my opinion that E can be used to lose weight without the aid of C or A. There are other compounds that could be used synergistically. That is all I am saying. I have the utmost confidence that this cited statement is from a legit study but lets face it many studies are jaded by the practitioners ignorance or prejudice. Many of these people would never dare use E with the other compounds I mentioned but us bodybuilders would do so. Hell, this study was in 1992 and fat burning products/compounds have came a long way so they probably had very few options on what stacks they could test. Once again, nothing against you bro.

Peace, Tony

[Howie]

Here's an interesting read....

http://www.rense.com/general24/drgs.htm

Do the drug companies want prescription free fat loss products to
disappear?