What you don't know about sodium depletion and potassium loading

[James5567]

well , Layne I really respect the fact that you dont care what other people think of you...its not like your here to make friends, its quite obvious

[BMG]

I've been reading both your and Dr. Joe's pre contest prep strategies in regards to water, sodium and carbs etc. Just wondering what your take would be on using these methods for figure athletes, because I would think that it would be better if these athletes came in dry with flatter muscles rather than fuller muscles.

Essentially I would think figure athletes would want to ensure that there is no water being held subcutaneously even if sacrificing a bit of muscle fullness. I've heard of several of these athletes taking either herbal or over the counter diuretics prior to the show and I was wondering what you thought about that?Would using such products help in achieving that requisite dry lean look?

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by BMG
I've been reading both your and Dr. Joe's pre contest prep strategies in regards to water, sodium and carbs etc. Just wondering what your take would be on using these methods for figure athletes, because I would think that it would be better if these athletes came in dry with flatter muscles rather than fuller muscles.

Essentially I would think figure athletes would want to ensure that there is no water being held subcutaneously even if sacrificing a bit of muscle fullness. I've heard of several of these athletes taking either herbal or over the counter diuretics prior to the show and I was wondering what you thought about that?Would using such products help in achieving that requisite dry lean look?

I would keep water constant and NOT do much of a carb up... if at all. I would also keep sodium a bit below average intake for the 5 days up until the show. Don't mess with diuretics... too many things that can go wrong

-Layne

[duckylick]

So if you do a little sodium loading 15 days out, how would you do that... just increase the salt on your food? Or would you actually take some tablets or something?

I also noticed that many of the frozen chicken breasts I've been eating also contain a preserving, sodium riddled ice glaze. DOH!

[str8flexed]

you can increase salting your foods are just consume foods that contain more sodium

[alohafitness]

I've been reading both your and Dr. Joe's pre contest prep strategies in regards to water, sodium and carbs etc. Just wondering what your take would be on using these methods for figure athletes, because I would think that it would be better if these athletes came in dry with flatter muscles rather than fuller muscles.

Essentially I would think figure athletes would want to ensure that there is no water being held subcutaneously even if sacrificing a bit of muscle fullness. I've heard of several of these athletes taking either herbal or over the counter diuretics prior to the show and I was wondering what you thought about that?Would using such products help in achieving that requisite dry lean look?

I up my sodium using condiments the wk. before and then drop all of it and move to distilled water only 5 days out. Yeah, I use diurex and vitamin C before a show b/c as an endomorph I never have to worry about being too lean/hard. Plus I don't carb load, I just eat enough to fill out and that doesn't take much (I see the guys backstage chowing on Krispy Kreams but I eat clean until all my photoshoots are done). Oh, and I'm all natural.

[Cytrainer913]

Layne, has plenty to back up his wealth of knowledge, 2 pro cards this year! And by age 24 all natural, that's backig up "practice what you preach"!

All of Layne's backround and contest knowledge is backed up by one of the prremier Natural contest prep diet Gurus, Dr. Joe Klemczewski, who has helped 100's win procards with this approach, the naturals can not live off old folklore and juiced up ways still infiltrating our prep for a show! You want to do it right, follow what Layne is saying, because it really comes down to the more you can back up what you do on your contest prep with research based data and personal experience, the more I will trust that over any IFBB old school prep guy who really F**Ks up some kids with their unhealthy prep habits!

Go Layne!

[Cytrainer913]

This fellow BB did exactly what Layne and Dr. Joe and I am talking about in terms of carb manipulation, sodium intake, and water intake and then he followed a plan exactyl to the tee that I gave him and these guideslines are the same ones we keep talking about here! Look at him, he was hard, full, crisp, nad shredded!

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=792573

[XTRMEWJ]

I think figure athletes should follow the same protocols as bodybuilders the last couple of weeks pre-contest. Given the fact they want to look slighly different, that is more a function of diet and training than CHO or Na manipulation. If they want to carry a bit more fat, just plan for that in the diet. Also worth noting is that the figure girls are getting harder and harder as their division matures...most of the highly successful girls in the natural ranks are former bodybuilders who made minor changes to contest prep, got different suits, did up their hair and bought some shoes. Same athletes, different look. Did I mention they are hot? LOL.

Just my .02 worth.

Sean

[FATHER FLEX]

Just thought I would ask, what is the "normal" amount of potassium? Also thought I would bump this up for everyone to see.

[Quelly]

Just thought I would ask, what is the "normal" amount of potassium? Also thought I would bump this up for everyone to see.

nice resurrection

[Cytrainer913]

I feel normal would be if you are getting a normal amount of fruits and veggies in your diet daily and some of these can be:

Bananas, brewer's yeast, dried figs/prunes, wheatgerm, almonds, raisins and sultanas, dates, potatoes, halibut, molasses, spinach, chick peas, butter beans.

fruits and veggies are key along with you multi-vitamin, I love my multi vitamin, as I consider it one of the few that really gives you what is said to be on the label and has been tested through outside sources to give what is truly on the label and is all natural with the most organic and natural things to make up the vitamin. It is called Pharmanex, 100% of everything that is listed on the side, as many others tested have come back with as little as 15% of what is listed on the side(that's all that is needed by FDA standards).

[JOSEF RAKICH]

I see that most people on here seem to think that cutting out sodium and raising potassium to ridiculously high levels is the best way to shed excess water. Not only can this process be dangerous (even fatal if grossly overdone) it is not that effective. You see, in terms of ADH (anti-diuretic hormone) decreasing sodium intake will reduce ADH output. However, your water and ion levels are controlled by several hormones, not just one. Think about it, your body doesn't want to lose alot of water. Why? B/c an increased urine volume means decreased blood volume, decreased blood volume means decreased blood pressure; which is dangerous in the short term as it decreases the amount of blood to and from the heart.

so if you lower your sodium and increase your potassium, the body will fight water loss... how does it do this????? By increasing aldosterone. Aldosterone is member of the steroid hormone family and it's production is stimulated by EITHER an increase in blood concentrations of potassium or a decrease in concentrations of sodium. Just wait, it gets better... aldosterone attaches to receptors on the distal tubule and on the collecting duct (part of the nephron... the functional unit of the kidney) and causes water to be reabsorbed into the interstitial fluid. So instead of excreting this water via urination, your body will retain it to increase your blood volume and return your blood pressure to normal.

Just goes to show you that you can't fool your body, it is a lot smarter than you are... that's what millions of years of evolution will do for you.

Your best strategy for losing water (if you don't want to take illicit drugs) is to use a moderate approach. Sodium loading isn't a bad idea starting about 10-15 days out, but when you deplete don't take it to ridiculously low levels... stay within 1-2g per day. By the same token don't load on a bunch of potassium, eat the amount of potassium you normally would.

-Layne

Interesting..

Layne, what about just increasing potassium intake a few days before like 2g extra per day through supplementation, or would you still not recomend this?

[str8flexed]

absolutely not. why would you?

[JOSEF RAKICH]

absolutely not. why would you?

Because potassium is a cell volumiser, potassium holds fluid in the muscle cell, hence creating a hard/full look. (correct me if im wrong)

[devo09]

Because potassium is a cell volumiser, potassium holds fluid in the muscle cell, hence creating a hard/full look. (correct me if im wrong)

no, the Na+/K+ pump is what is going to "volumiser" your muscles...notice that they are both required. And drastically changing the concentrations of them in your body will **** you up and make you look like ****


ohh, and you could die too

[JOSEF RAKICH]

no, the Na+/K+ pump is what is going to "volumiser" your muscles...notice that they are both required. And drastically changing the concentrations of them in your body will **** you up and make you look like ****


ohh, and you could die too

Na+/K+ pump?

So by drastically changing my potassium intake let just say 2g extra per day for about 3 days pre-comp, this will **** me up and make me look like **** resulting in a negative rather than a positive to my physique?

Is this what you are saying?

[str8flexed]

lol, people who cite the sodium potassium pump as a reason to load potassium really have no clue how it works and potassium metabolism. No do not load it. Again, for the reasons stated in my initial post

[JOSEF RAKICH]

lol, people who cite the sodium potassium pump as a reason to load potassium really have no clue how it works and potassium metabolism. No do not load it. Again, for the reasons stated in my initial post

But Layne, in your post you were talking about both sodium and potassium depletion/loading for getting rid of excess water, im not talking about trying to lose water under the skin, im talking about loading potassium ONLY for cell volumization. So that my muscles appear fuller/harder.

You diddnt mention about potassium loading only for increasing cell volumization, i dont understand how loading on potassium ONLY (2g extra per day for 3 days pre comp) can cause the body to go haywire and increase water retention yet not hold water in the cells and make my physique appear more fuller/harder which it is suspose to do?

Sory if im being a retard.

[str8flexed]

no it won't work, because your body will merely increase potassium excretion to keep plasma levels of potassium stable. And it's not like the Na K pump will just pump in a whole crap load more potassium, I mean this **** controls your cells polarity which is really freaking important. If you could actually get your sodium potassium pumps to put more potassium into cells (remember there are more cells than just muscle cells) you'd die becuase your heart cells would become hyperpolorize and your heart would stop beating. So this kind of stuff is regulated kind of tightly. It's not like you can just 'take more' and get a response. Your body has extremely complex regulations to prevent just such a thing from happening

[JOSEF RAKICH]

no it won't work, because your body will merely increase potassium excretion to keep plasma levels of potassium stable. And it's not like the Na K pump will just pump in a whole crap load more potassium, I mean this **** controls your cells polarity which is really freaking important. If you could actually get your sodium potassium pumps to put more potassium into cells (remember there are more cells than just muscle cells) you'd die becuase your heart cells would become hyperpolorize and your heart would stop beating. So this kind of stuff is regulated kind of tightly. It's not like you can just 'take more' and get a response. Your body has extremely complex regulations to prevent just such a thing from happening

OK thanks for clearing that up Layne, i listen to your advice because i know you know the science behind it.

Just a question though, what do you personally do pre-comp to come in peaking your physique for the certian day? Anything at all or just get yoru bodyfat as low as possible, as i suspose at the end of the day ripped = ripped, regardless. But is there anything you specially do pre-comp to come in peaking?

Thanks for the replys.

[AustrianOakJr]

The most dramatic difference you will make with your physique in the final days will be filling out with carbs. Learn how many carbs your body can handle and use that to your advantage to fill out as much as possible. Keep sodium and water running right through show day so that you can fill out.

[killerstack]

no it won't work, because your body will merely increase potassium excretion to keep plasma levels of potassium stable. And it's not like the Na K pump will just pump in a whole crap load more potassium, I mean this **** controls your cells polarity which is really freaking important. If you could actually get your sodium potassium pumps to put more potassium into cells (remember there are more cells than just muscle cells) you'd die becuase your heart cells would become hyperpolorize and your heart would stop beating. So this kind of stuff is regulated kind of tightly. It's not like you can just 'take more' and get a response. Your body has extremely complex regulations to prevent just such a thing from happening

But in which situations can a potassium supplement cause an imbalance? Because I assume there's a reason high dose K supplements are not OTC right? I think the limit is 100mg for OTC supplements.

Scivation also has potassium in the Showtime supplement. For what reason?

[AustrianOakJr]

Scivation also has potassium in the Showtime supplement. For what reason?

I dont know that Layne would agree, but I think you can cause small shifts in electrolyte balance......still within the "normal operating range" of the body. We all know that when we eat a lot of salty food, we retain water under the skin, and we also know there are days in our prep when our skin is a little tighter than normal...... so it stands to reason that if we can create a small shift in the right direction by SLIGHTLY raising potassium and SLIGHTLY lowering sodium we are at least moving the interstitial water in the right direction. We're still operating under with normal levels and not creating huge shifts......because huge shifts dont exist. As Layne said, the body is too tightly regulated to create huge shifts. As soon as we try to swing it too far, the body will overcompensate by holding onto water.

[fltallpaul]

I really like Layne's philosophy when it comes to the last week of contest prep.

"you can't win a contest in the last week, but you can lose it"

If you look good three weeks out, why try to find some magic bullet? If you get lean enough you won't require tricks to look great on stage.

[Barn01]

no it won't work, because your body will merely increase potassium excretion to keep plasma levels of potassium stable. And it's not like the Na K pump will just pump in a whole crap load more potassium, I mean this **** controls your cells polarity which is really freaking important. If you could actually get your sodium potassium pumps to put more potassium into cells (remember there are more cells than just muscle cells) you'd die becuase your heart cells would become hyperpolorize and your heart would stop beating. So this kind of stuff is regulated kind of tightly. It's not like you can just 'take more' and get a response. Your body has extremely complex regulations to prevent just such a thing from happening

Question: So when carb loading off a deplete, I sometimes get total muscle lockup / cramping when I flex. Is there anything you can suggest to reduce or avoid this?

[fltallpaul]

Question: So when carb loading off a deplete, I sometimes get total muscle lockup / cramping when I flex. Is there anything you can suggest to reduce or avoid this?

When Layne has me on my low carb days he has me up my sodium, and then return to normal levels when the carb up begins. Three preps and never a cramp.

Are you lowering your sodium at the same time your depleting? This sounds like what happened to Oak after his contest and he went to the Chinese joint, ofcourse thier food is loaded with sodium.

[str8flexed]

Question: So when carb loading off a deplete, I sometimes get total muscle lockup / cramping when I flex. Is there anything you can suggest to reduce or avoid this?

Don't cut sodium or water. Problem solved

[str8flexed]

I dont know that Layne would agree, but I think you can cause small shifts in electrolyte balance......still within the "normal operating range" of the body. We all know that when we eat a lot of salty food, we retain water under the skin, and we also know there are days in our prep when our skin is a little tighter than normal...... so it stands to reason that if we can create a small shift in the right direction by SLIGHTLY raising potassium and SLIGHTLY lowering sodium we are at least moving the interstitial water in the right direction. We're still operating under with normal levels and not creating huge shifts......because huge shifts dont exist. As Layne said, the body is too tightly regulated to create huge shifts. As soon as we try to swing it too far, the body will overcompensate by holding onto water.

You retain water from sodium if you eat a lot more sodium than normal. This is why you keep everything steady

[AustrianOakJr]

You retain water from sodium if you eat a lot more sodium than normal. This is why you keep everything steady

Right......an increase in sodium causes a temporary increase in intestitial water.......so does it not stand to reason that if your sodium levels dipped slightly below normal (im not talign cutting sodium, but nudging it down) then the water would temporarily swing the other way? Or do you think that is impossible to shed interstitial water even slightly below "normal" levels?