Soy Protein = Good or Bad?

[7:360]

I just wanted to start up a thread stating the benefits/positives of soy protein. In another forum, I engaged in a discussion with a moderator in which the moderator stated that dairy milk is superior to soy milk - I had to speak up. Much, if not all, of the information provided is taken from my posts over from the other forum. I just wanted to share it with those that are interested in educating themselves and maybe even changing their minds about soy being "bad". It's really not, regardless of what any "sports doctor" or whoever says otherwise. I'm going to have to break my post up into two, possibly three part because it's 20,761 characters long. Bear with me, please!

Here we go...

One of the issues with soy has been in it's comparison to whey and the effectiveness soy protein has on gaining muscle. Whey and soy protein are both equally effective. Soy protein, in most cases, doesn't have cholesterol and is low in fat and is one of the few plant based proteins that is complete. The only thing is that it'll be low in methionine but then again too much methionine can be acidic. This amino acid also plays a role in protein synthesis and metabolic functions.


Soy protein for gaining lean muscle mass

Soy may prevent your body from stockpiling fat as you age - plus increase body-firming muscle Are you getting older and wider? If so, try introducing more soy into your diet - specifically soy that is high in isoflavones, naturally occurring estrogen-like compounds in legumes.

In a study conducted by researchers at the University of Iowa, Iowa City, menopausal women were given 40 gm a day of soy protein high in isoflavones, soy protein devoid of isoflavones or whey protein. At the end of 24 weeks, changes in the women?s body composition were measured by a low-level radiation scan. Women who consumed isoflavone-rich soy gained lean muscle in their waists, hips and thighs, plus lost fat in their thighs - two favorable changes in body composition. The researchers do not offer an explanation as to why soy appears to be a fat fighter and muscle builder, although they comment that it arrests the weight gain and loss of muscle that typically occur during menopause. Interestingly, research also indicates soy protein significantly reduces body fat storage in animals.

All of this is good news, especially if you?re approaching middle age. Paring away pudge reduces your odds of obesity-related diseases such as heart disease and diabetes, plus makes you look and feel good. As for muscle gain, the more muscle you have, the more calories you burn, even at rest. There are may other good reasons to fortify your diet with soy foods. Other research shows isoflavone-rich soy may help normalize cholesterol, lower blood pressure, reduce the risk of prostate cancer, enhance bone health and improve short-and long-term memory. Some good sources of isoflavones include soy protein powdered supplements (53 mg. of isoflavones per serving) and fortified soy milk (43 mg per serving). Shoot for around 25 to 40 gm of soy protein daily.


Maggie Greenwood-Robinson, Ph.D


Note: Soy must be water washed to maintain the Phyto-chemicals and Phyto-estrogens in the soy. Many companies use alcohol to wash their soy.

Another issue that is constantly being brought up is this:

"I have seen some references linking high soy protein intake with increasing estrogen levels in men."

I'm not entirely sure but from what I understand, genetically modifying a food or substance can completely throw off many things about the food/substance - especially the effect it has on the body. If you take something out of it's natural chemical state and start fooling around with it (i.e. GMO), I'm sure the effects it's going to have the body are going to be pretty twisted, wouldn't you agree?

The increase in estrogen levels if any ,is so minute that it shouldn't even be an object of discussion whatsoever. I've seen studies showing it highers estrogen levels in men and what not, but I don't recall seeing if the soy protein used was non-GMO or not. Could that be playing a role in this matter?

Moving on...the following is taken from my posts in the topic of "soy milk vs. dairy milk" (in which we came to the conclusion that nutrition-wise, soy milk is better):

Soy milk has 8x more ALA omega 3's than dairy milk
It contains 170 mg ALA omega-3 per serving; reduced fat milk contains 20mg omega-3 per serving and 1300 mg of omega-6 fatty acids

Soy milk contains 18 times more iron than reduced fat milk.
Soy milk contains 1.44 mg iron per serving; reduced fat milk contains .08 mg iron per serving

Soy milk is also a great source of energy due to the protein. It's cholesterol & Lactose free

Soy milk contains powerful antioxidants that help fight disease and aging. They have been found to increase bone density and strengthen the immune system. Adequate soy protein has been proven to lower and stabilize cholesterol levels and can be effective in preventing heart disease.

Natural soy isoflavones have been proven to help menopausal symptoms for women, and soy promotes good prostate health for men.

Soy milk is rich in protein, and contains soluble fiber. In addition to being cholesterol-free, studies have shown that a diet including soymilk actually helps lower levels of LDL (bad) cholesterol, while leaving HDL (good) cholesterol unaffected!

Soy milk contains a host of helpful isoflavones, one of which is called genistein. Studies show that this valuable phytoestrogen actually suppresses the growth of cancer cells. SOY IS THE ONLY COMMONLY CONSUMED INGREDIENT THAT CONTAINS GENISTEIN!

One of the main reasons for drinking soy milk is for its healthy nutrients: soy proteins, soy compounds, isoflavones, essential vitamins, etc. These nutrients, particularly the disease-fighting phytochemicals and phytoestrogens, are significantly degraded over time.

Milk - facts and fallacies - Better Health Channel.

This taken right from that link:

"Australians tend to restrict dairy foods when they try to lose weight, believing them to be fattening. Dairy foods contain saturated fats, which have been associated with increased blood cholesterol levels. However, dairy foods are not a threat to good health if consumed in moderation as part of a nutritious diet."

I've never heard of anything bad happening with an over-moderate consumption of soy milk

"Although infants are able to digest, absorb and excrete these isoflavones as efficiently as adults, it remains unclear whether they are beneficial or detrimental to health"

There's plenty of studies showing how beneficial isoflavones found in soy are. As a matter of fact,I believe one of my posts mentioned the benefits of these isoflavones.

Taken from above facts:

Natural soy isoflavones have been proven to help menopausal symptoms for women, and soy promotes good prostate health for men.

Soy milk is rich in protein, and contains soluble fiber. In addition to being cholesterol-free, studies have shown that a diet including soymilk actually helps lower levels of LDL (bad) cholesterol, while leaving HDL (good) cholesterol unaffected!
Milk was said to not have any fiber content in the link posted comparing dairy milk and soy.

Soy milk contains a host of helpful isoflavones, one of which is called genistein. Studies show that this valuable phytoestrogen actually suppresses the growth of cancer cells. SOY IS THE ONLY COMMONLY CONSUMED INGREDIENT THAT CONTAINS GENISTEIN!
I don't believe milk does any of this...

One of the main reasons for drinking soy milk is for its healthy nutrients: soy proteins, soy compounds, isoflavones, essential vitamins, etc. These nutrients, particularly the disease-fighting phytochemicals and phytoestrogens, are significantly degraded over time.

"Milk contains many different nutrients
Milk and milk products contain a good balance of protein, fat and carbohydrate and are a very important source of essential nutrients including:

* Calcium
* Riboflavin
* Phosphorous
* Vitamins A, D and B12
* Pantothenic acid."
Soy milk is fortified with these as well.

"Milk and mucous
Many people in Australia believe that nasal stuffiness is related, in part, to how much milk you drink. However, there is no scientific basis to this theory. Milk doesn?t encourage extra mucous production."

Of course it does lol, no one can drink dairy milk when they have any sort of phlegm or mucus in the mouth area because dairy milk makes it worse.

On top of that, it also mentions in the same page "although milk is an excellent source of calcium, it isn?t the only one."

Not a very big statement because there are numerous ways to incorporate any sort of vitamin, mineral, etc. into your diet due to the variety of foods available but that doesn't help the cause either.

[7:360]

Soy's Powerful Antioxidant Benefits


During each day of our lives, we are exposed to oxidative stress. Our bodies produce free radicals, unstable molecules that cause harm to our body?s cells as a by-product of normal metabolism. Exposure to a variety of environmental factors, such as cigarette smoke and environmental pollutants, also increases our susceptibility to free radicals.

The resulting oxidative damage has been implicated in a number of chronic health conditions. Therefore, it is important to consume adequate amounts of dietary antioxidants to reduce the oxidative stress and maintain overall health.

A growing amount of cell culture/test tube1-3, animal4-6, and human7-12 research suggests that the isoflavones in soy are powerful antioxidants. Studies have reported that soy isoflavones alone1 and in combination with vitamin C2 reduce the oxidation of plasma LDL cholesterol. Scientific research has also suggested that soy consumption reduces plasma LDL cholesterol oxidation? the oxidation process turns bad LDL into a form that is even worse!4?and inhibits oxidative damage to the skin5.

Several human clinical studies have demonstrated the beneficial antioxidant effects of soy. In one study, it was reported that higher amounts of isoflavones reduced lipid oxidation to a greater extent than low isoflavone amounts7. Other studies have shown that soy isoflavones reduce markers of oxidative damage8-10 and improve total antioxidant status10-11. Furthermore, in a study of breast cancer survivors, consumption of soy isoflavones increased the antioxidant enzyme superoxide dismutase12. Overall, these studies suggest that adding soy to your diet may help to support better antioxidant status.

So, while many forms of stress can alter your health and outlook on life through oxidative damage, including antioxidants from soy isoflavone-rich foods and supplements in your daily diet can help to reduce the effects of everyday stress.

References:

1. Hodgson JM, Croft KD, Puddey IB, Mori TA, Beilin LJ. Soybean isoflavonoids and their metabolic products inhibit in vitro lipoprotein oxidation in serum. Journal of Nutritional Biochemistry 1996; 7:664-669.
2. Hwang J, Sevanian A, Hodis HN, Ursini F. Synergistic inhibition of LDL oxidation by phytoestrogens and ascorbic acid. Free Radical Biology & Medicine 2000; 29:79-89.
3. Rimbach G, De Pascual-Teresa S, Weins BA, Matsugo S, Uchida Y, Minihane AM, Turner R, Vafeiadou K, Weinberg, PD. Antioxidant and free radical scavenging activity of isoflavone metabolites. Xenobiotica 2003; 33:913-925.
4. Damasceno NRT, Goto H, Rodrigues FMD, Dia CTS, Okawabata FS, Abdalla DSP, Gidlund M. Soy protein isolate reduces the oxidizability of LDL and the generation of oxidized LDL autoantibodies in rabbits with diet-induced atherosclerosis. Journal of Nutrition 2000; 130:2641-2647.
5. Wei H, Zhang X, Wang Y, Lebwohl M. Inhibition of ultraviolet light-induced oxidative events in the skin and internal organs of hairless mice by isoflavone genistein. Cancer Letters 2002; 185:21-29.
6. Aoki H, Otaka Y, Igarashi K, Takenaka A. Soy protein reduces paraquat-induced oxidative stress in rats. Journal of Nutrition 2002; 132:2258-2262.
7. Wiseman H, O?Reilly JDO, Adlercreutz H, Mallet AI, Bowey EA, Rowland IR, Sanders TAB. Isoflavone phytoestrogens consumed in soy decrease F2-isoprostane concentrations and increase resistance of low-density lipoprotein to oxidation in humans. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2000; 72:395-400.
8. Djuric Z, Chen G, Doerge DR, Heilbrun LK, Kucuk O. Effect of soy isoflavone supplementation on markers of oxidative stress in men and women. Cancer Letters 2001; 172:1-6.
9. Davis JN, Kucuk O, Djuric Z, Sarkar FH. Soy isoflavone supplementation in healthy men prevents NF-kB activation by TNF-a in blood lymphocytes. Free Radical Biology & Medicine 2001; 30:1293-1302.
10. Chen CY, Bakhiet RM, Hart V, Holtzman G. Isoflavones improve plasma homocysteine status and antioxidant defense system in healthy young men at rest but do not ameliorate oxidative stress inducedc by 80% VO2pk exercise. Annals of Nutrition & Metabolism 2005; 49:33-41.
11. Bazzoli DL, Hill S, DiSilvestro RA. Soy protein antioxidant actions in active, young adult women. Nutrition Research 2002; 22:807-815.
12. DiSilvestro RA, Goodman J, Dy E, LaValle G. Soy isoflavone supplementation elevates erythrocyte superoxide dismutase, but not ceruloplasmin in postmenopausal breast cancer survivors. Breast Cancer Research and Treatment 2005; 89:251-255

Health care professionals and consumers alike are becoming more aware of the potential benefits that adding protein to the diet can provide. Throughout our lives, protein in our bodies is continuously broken down and remade, thus requiring the addition of protein to our diets. High quality proteins provide the best and most efficient way to meet human nutritional needs. Therefore, it is important that the protein added to the diet is of the highest quality possible.

The nutritional quality of soy protein has been studied in depth . Studies have shown that nitrogen balance, digestibility, and protein utilization are similar between beef and soy proteins. Other studies show that soy protein can support nitrogen balance and does provide adequate amounts of the amino acid methionine, which is important for growth and development . Recent studies have reported that nitrogen absorption, protein digestibility, biological value, and net utilization of soy protein are similar to milk protein .

The high digestibility of soy protein, the content and bioavailability of its amino acids, and the nitrogen content make soy protein a high quality protein. Based on protein digestibility calculations, soy protein achieves a score of 1.0, the highest score possible and on par with other high quality proteins like egg whites and milk proteins. Therefore, the addition of soy to the diet is a good way to meet all of your protein nutritional requirements.


__________________________________________________ _________________________


An estimated 61% of American adults are now considered overweight or obese, with the biggest weight gain among Baby Boomers age 50 and older. Although this generation is taking more preventive health measures such as routine mammograms, prostate screenings and physicals, the 50-plus crowd has nearly doubled its weight over the past two decades.

Even though millions of us spend untold amounts of money in an attempt to lose weight, Americans are heavier than ever. As we grow older, and exercise less, the task of staying fit and trim becomes even more difficult. And while a sensible diet combined with exercise is still the best answer, new research shows that soy can play a major role in helping you achieve your weight loss goals faster.

Health support with soy?

A significant number of research studies support claims that soy consumption can help you lose weight. Soy protein is a low-fat source of high-quality protein (compared to many other protein sources) that can help you build lean muscle mass. When combined with exercise and a healthy diet, soy protein makes an excellent "partner" in a successful weight loss plan.

1) Soy protein helps you feel fuller longer.

Recent medical studies show soy protein helps you feel less hungry, and helps you feel fuller longer . Eating soy may work by causing your stomach to send an "I'm full" messages to your brain . This helps reduce the urge to snack between meals and late at night - two major causes of weight gain.

2) " Soy protein is low-carb."

As a naturally low-carb food, Revival Soy is the perfect supplement to any weight loss plan, including popular "low-carb" and "high-protein" diets.

3) Soy protein has a "low-glycemic index."

Not only is soy protein low in carbs and fat, but it also has a low-glycemic index which means it won't cause a rapid rise in blood sugar levels after consumption. This prevents over secretion of insulin (insulin causes the unwanted effect of storing extra sugar in your bloodstream as body fat). Stable blood sugar and insulin levels mean fewer hunger cravings and fewer calories being stored as fat.

Revival Soy as part of an existing diet plan.

To reduce hunger cravings, simply supplement your current diet plan with delicious soy products, such as bars, shakes, etc.

[7:360]

Diabetes results when the body doesn't properly make insulin (Type 1 Diabetes) or utilize insulin (Type 2 Diabetes), thus resulting in blood sugar concentrations that are very unhealthy. Uncontrolled high blood sugar levels eventually damage the heart, kidneys, eyes and nerves.

The good news is that better Type 2 Diabetic health can often be supported with meal planning, exercise and weight loss. Clinical research evidence shows that soy is a very smart nutritional choice ( 1).

In a randomized, double blind, trial of dietary soy supplementation, 32 women with Type 2 diabetes received 30 grams of soy protein per day (containing 132 mg isoflavones) or placebo for 12 weeks. Soy consumption reduced fasting insulin by over 8% and insulin resistance by nearly 6.5%. Soy consumption also resulted in significantly lower values fasting insulin and insulin resistance when compared to the placebo-treated group ( 2).

Similar beneficial effects have been reported in postmenopausal women ( 3, 4 ). In one study, soy isoflavone consumption (100 mg/day) for 6 months reduced levels of fasting blood sugar levels by 85% and insulin by 56% ( 3), while the second study demonstrated that genistein consumption was associated with both a lower fasting insulin levels and a lower insulin level 2 hours after a glucose challenge ( 4).

Another reason that soy may support better diabetic health is because it has a low-glycemic index ( i.e. it is a "Smart-Carb") ( 5). Soy's low glycemic index doesn't cause a rapid rise in blood sugar levels. The most likely reason for this is that the carbohydrates typically found in soy and soy foods are broken down more slowly, therefore preventing the spikes in blood glucose often observed with high glycemic foods.

In summary, adding soy to one's diet is a great way to "be smart" about diabetic health.

Soy protein has been proven
to be of the same protein quality as meat, milk and eggs. It is well accepted
as protein source for over half of the world's people. Whey is a byproduct of
cheese production. There are different grades of whey and some are not as
complete a protein as soy. However, just for arguments sake, let's assume
that some particular whey is as good as meat, milk and eggs. If you consume
whey instead of soy protein you miss the following:

• Cholesterol reduction.
• Breast cancer prevention.
• Prostate cancer prevention.
• Heart disease protection.
• PMS symptom reduction.
• Menopausal symptom reduction.
• Menstrual symptom reduction.
• And the prevention of other cancers
• by the isoflavones contained in soy protein

Whey protein offers none of these most useful benefits. Even if whey equaled
soy in "protein power", for the reasons above, I would opt for soy every time.

[siamesedream]

There is now a bunch of **** all up in my cookies and temporary internet files. Thanks a lot, bro.

[7:360]

What? LOL (confused)

[jcamp19]

yeah I'm confused too.

tools-> Internet options -> Delete cookies/Delete files?

Threads alittle long for me to read now. Looks pretty informative. Will read it once I get back to the room

I'm glad to see post like this instead of the usual crap.

[7:360]

I agree: it's definitely a long post but I believe it's worth the time reading, soy has gotten such a bad reputation due mainly due to ignorance so I think this article will help shed a more positive light on this controversial topic.

[depositio]

There is now a bunch of **** all up in my cookies and temporary internet files. Thanks a lot, bro.

What? LOL (confused)

I guess siamesedream is telling you that the pages you linked to install spyware? Or maybe he's just giving the substance of your report the cold shoulder.

Fears about soy's metabolic effects are often exaggerated. So too are many of the claims about the benefits of soy relative to its arch enemies which include animal proteins/fats, other seed oils. I counted so many caveats (concerning the common use of alcohol to wash soy, for example) in your report that I don't know what to think?

There's no getting around the fact that the only reason we're being bombarded by products containing soy derivatives is that it is cheaper in absolute terms than other sources of nutrients (protein most of all) to produce short of things like mycoprotein, the processed mold that is known by the dubious name of Quorn. That cheapness makes it very attractive to Mcfood and frankenfood manufacturers who want to pump as much money out of your pocket into their coffers as they possibly can. If there are any positive side effects that manage to creep into the "food" they're presenting, so be it. But what they are interested in is producing the highest possible rate of profit without getting their asses sued for pushing something either harmful or utterly vacuous. Does that make it bad? Personally, I try to keep my food pretty much as close as I can to its "whole" state. That can be an exceptionally difficult and often costly decision. In my view, the net effect of the way that soy protein is used commercially is to lower consumers' expectations about returns in the exchange of money for goods another notch while paradoxically improving maybe the quality of the junk upon which they subsist. But that paradoxical benefit (if it actually does exist) was strictly coincidental, not an intention of the food industry genii or evidence that the market automatically delivers the best value when it is allowed to operate freely.

[7:360]

I guess siamesedream is telling you that the pages you linked to install spyware? Or maybe he's just giving the substance of your report the cold shoulder.

I just realized two of the links I posted are floozies. I don't know why they don't work anymore but they used to work.

Fears about soy are often exaggerated. So too are many of the claims about the benefits of soy relative to its arch enemy the dairy cow. I counted so many caveats (concerning the common use of alcohol to wash soy, for example) in your report that I don't know what to think?

Yes, the fears are often exaggerated and at times even untruthful. Regarding what don't you know to think what about? The process in which companies use to wash their soy? Sorry, I'm misunderstanding what you said...

There's no getting around the fact that the only reason we're being bombarded by products containing soy derivatives is that it is cheaper in absolute terms than other sources of nutrients (protein most of all) to produce short of things like mycoprotein, the processed mold that is known by the dubious name of Quorn. That cheapness makes it very attractive to Mcfood and frankenfood manufacturers who want to pump as much money out of your pocket as they possibly can.

This might be true about soy derivatives but we're talking about soy and it's benefits. Cheap or not, it should be a staple in everyone's diet.

If there are any positive side effects that manage to creep into the highest rate of profit they can grasp, so be it. But what they are interested in is producing the highest possible rate of profit without getting their asses sued for pushing something either harmful or utterly vacuous. Does that make it bad? Personally, I try to keep my food pretty as close as I can to its "whole" state. That can be an exceptionally difficult and often costly decision.

Those are very truthful statements made about the untruthful companies. Most companies are always and only looking for the cheapest way to make the most profit without the public's health and well-being in mind.

[tweaked17]

I'm curious as to how you got so far into the red, and if you're only making these threads to get out... you seem to be feeling awfully generous in the past, oh, 24 hours? lol

[7:360]

I'm curious as to how you got so far into the read, and if you're only making these threads to get out... you seem to be feeling awfully generous in the past, oh, 24 hours? lol

I'm guessing you meant how I got "so far into the red", right?

I'm not "making these threads to get out" but then again who wants to be in the red? I'm not a newb or a troll and I don't want to give off the impression I am one. It's not my reputation anywhere else anyways. The threads I've made in the last few hours have been simple copy and pastes of threads I've made in other forums - nothing more, nothing less. I like to distribute the same information on one board as much as I do in another. I usually compare the threads I've made in one board to the ones I've made in another to make sure I have an equal amount of threads posted on all - you get me?

Anyhow, I got into the red because a couple of company reps ganged up on me because I said there product wasn't the best and that I wouldn't get too caught up in "how great the products are" because there were no published studies on any of their products and frankly, that's all I listen to. What can I say...it's hard to state your opinion and not get repped (negatively or positively) LOL.

People are seeming to think that I have some sort of ulterior motives or underlying intentions in my posts....or in the concept of me posting. I promise you, there's not .

[depositio]

Yes, the fears are often exaggerated and at times even untruthful. Regarding what don't you know to think what about? The process in which companies use to wash their soy? Sorry, I'm misunderstanding what you said...

Yes, there are so many contingencies or "if and only ifs" attached to the benefits of soy that it is impossible to know whether one stands any chance of actually encountering them by eating a soy-based product.

This might be true about soy derivatives but we're talking about soy and it's benefits. Cheap or not, it should be a staple in everyone's diet.

Unless you are talking about ingesting edamame as a staple, you are talking about a derivative. Some soy products are more derivative than others. But even the processes that are employed to make conventional products like tofu and tempeh may or may not compromise any number of the perks you have amalgamated above. Soymilk, while I won't deny that it can be tasty and I don't suppose its bad for me, is a derivative in extremis.

I don't think that you were intending to deceive anyone in this post, though another of your posts makes me unsure. In any event, you should properly attribute each and every one of the sources of your information that you have cut and pasted into your presentation if you expect to be taken at all seriously. Some of the material that you quote above comes from industry sources. That means they are public relations statements.

[7:360]

Yes, there are so many contingencies or "if and only ifs" attached to the benefits of soy that it is impossible to know whether one stands any chance of actually encountering them by eating a soy-based product.



Unless you are talking about ingesting edamame as a staple, you are talking about a derivative. Some soy products are more derivative than others. But even the processes that are employed to make conventional products like tofu and tempeh may or may not compromise any number of the perks you have amalgamated above. Soymilk, while I won't deny that it can be tasty and I don't suppose its bad for me, is a derivative in extremis.

I don't think that you were intending to deceive anyone in this post, though another of your posts makes me unsure. In any event, you should properly attribute each and every one of the sources of your information that you have cut and pasted into your presentation if you expect to be taken at all seriously. Some of the material that you quote above comes from industry sources. That means they are public relations statements.

Like I mentioned in another one of my posts, I don't have any "intentions". I would really like to get that point across. There's no "ulterior motive" or "underground movement" of any kind going on. If I see a good write-up, I post it up - simple. People were having trouble with the links above as you mentioned so I had to take them down. I will make it a sincere note to make it a strong point to cite my sources in the future when making posts.

Thanks for looking out for me brother.

[tweaked17]

In the read...good catch

I didn't mean to call you out, I just don't think I've seen you before. I never implied you were a troll.

I just agree in that you should get in the habit of citing your sources

Other than that, there's no shame in these threads; but why not just make one concise thread that you can keep bumping/adding to instead of a bunch?

[depositio]

I usually compare the threads I've made in one board to the ones I've made in another to make sure I have an equal amount of threads posted on all - you get me?

ermm... why on earth? OCD?

Anyhow, I got into the red because a couple of company reps ganged up on me because I said there product wasn't the best and that I wouldn't get too caught up in "how great the products are" because there were no published studies on any of their products and frankly, that's all I listen to.

If this is in fact the case, I believe that you should address this to the attention of moderators on the boards where this happened. I have noticed that the supplement representatives circle like hawks around any whisper of skepticism concerning their products and like vultures around many of the hapless fools who write supplement logs to amass dubious evidence of their products' worth.

[7:360]

In the read...good catch

Thanks LOL.

I didn't mean to call you out, I just don't think I've seen you before. I never implied you were a troll.

Don't even sweat it man...my intention was never to imply that you implied I was a troll. (this could turn into a tongue twister if we don't stand on guard LOL) I was just standing up for myself and making some clear points and getting the obvious out of the way before people thought I WAS a troll or something, that's all

I just agree in that you should get in the habit of citing your sources

I agree with you agreeing. I agree with the agreement as well.
Other than that, there's no shame in these threads; but why not just make one concise thread that you can keep bumping/adding to instead of a bunch?

What do you mean? Put all the threads I made into one thread or are you referring to specifically this thread?

[tweaked17]

What do you mean? Put all the threads I made into one thread or are you referring to specifically this thread?

Well, just make one single informative thread to hold your favorite sources of information, your opinions, and your personal advice. See my sig if you still don't understand.

Except for the thread you made in the supplement section, most of the ones you made here could easily be grouped together.

[7:360]

Oohh.....I see now. Dang, that's not a bad idea. I would've never thought of that. Good idea. Thanks man, I'll look into it.

[Ke422azn]

soy is good. Its also good for the skin. Get your girlfriend to eat lots of tofu! There was a story in ancient China, the daughter of a tofu maker became the desire of the emperor because of her great complexion. I guess she ate a lotta tofu.

[7:360]

soy is good. Its also good for the skin. Get your girlfriend to eat lots of tofu! There was a story in ancient China, the daughter of a tofu maker became the desire of the emperor because of her great complexion. I guess she ate a lotta tofu.

Girlfriend? Pssh..she can wait until I'm done having MY serving of soy. Nice job man. That's impressive, I didn't think anyone was going to bring that point up.

Brownie points.

[jamez123]

I don't trust soy one bit. And there's plenty of reason not to:

Reporting in the current issue of the scientific journal Hormones and Behavior, the researchers found that in male monkeys, "long-term consumption of a diet rich in soy isoflavones can have marked influences on patterns of aggression and social behavior." Isoflavones are a naturally occurring plant estrogen in soy protein.
.....
"In the monkeys fed the higher amounts of isoflavones, frequencies of intense aggressive and submissive behavior were elevated," according to the study. "In addition, the proportion of time spent by these monkeys in physical contact with other monkeys was reduced by 68 percent, time spent in proximity to other monkeys was reduced 50 percent and time spent alone was increased 30 percent."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...hp?newsid=7842

In July, the Israeli Health Ministry warned that babies should not receive soy formula, that children should eat soy no more than once per day to a maximum of three times per week and that adults should exercise caution because of increased risk of breast cancer and adverse effects on fertility. The Ministry based its advice upon the conclusions reached by a 13-member committee of nutritionists, oncologists, pediatricians and other specialists who spent more than year examining the evidence. They concluded that the estrogen-like plant hormones in soy can cause adverse effects on the human body and strongly urged consumers to minimize their consumption of soy foods until absolute safety has been proven.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_badnews.html

Indeed, thousands of studies link soy to malnutrition, digestive distress, immune-system breakdown, thyroid dysfunction, cognitive decline, reproductive disorders and infertility-even cancer and heart disease.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...soy_story.html

Soy protein in the diet or from nutritional supplements has little or no effect on the risk factors for heart disease, according to a new American Heart Association scientific statement published in Circulation: Journal of the American Heart Association.
....
Additionally, analysis of 19 studies showed that soy isoflavones, the bioactive molecules found in soy, had no effect on lowering LDL cholesterol or other lipid risk factors such as triglycerides or HDL cholesterol.

http://www.americanheart.org/present...tifier=3037031

And that's just a quick sample of the negative effects of soy. There's many many many more. Avoid soy at all costs!

[jamez123]

Soy: The Poison Seed.
...
Isoflavones are estrogen like substances which have the same effect as the bodies estrogen. Cancer comes from having too much estrogen. Irritability and mood swings, fat gain from the waist down, fibrocystic breast disease uterine fibromas are all associated with estrogen dominance
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Soy contains Phytin, which takes essential minerals such as iron, zinc, magnesium etc. out of the body before they can be absorbed. Also soy contains Trypsin inhibitors block this vital anti cancer enzyme, anti fibrosis enzyme.
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A 7000 man 30 year epidemiological study done in Hawaii shows soy is connected with a higher rate of Vascular Dementia (Alzheimer's disease).

http://www.totalityofbeing.com/ArchivedSoyPoison.html

Just say NO to SOY!

[Malodrax]

soy is healthy for you... but its they way its made that determines whether its good or bad.. most north amarican soy products are produced in such a way that leaves the soy bad for males and thyroid. (or so i've heard from a pharmacist).

[Ke422azn]

I don't trust soy one bit. And there's plenty of reason not to:









And that's just a quick sample of the negative effects of soy. There's many many many more. Avoid soy at all costs!

Um, why would you even need monkey data for soy? Asians have been eating soy for 5000+ years, and they arent any more aggressive than white ppl.

[7:360]

Um, why would you even need monkey data for soy? Asians have been eating soy for 5000+ years, and they arent any more aggressive than white ppl.

BUMP to that. They live way longer and healthier lives than "white people" aka the average Americans so they must be doing something right and soy is a STAPLE in their diets. Besides, all this talk about isoflavones, unless you're thinking about injecting isoflvaones directly into your bloodstream, I don't see anyone growing breasts or developing aggression problems because of: food. Don't get caught up in the hype on either side. Soy is a great thing but it's not the end of all foods, it's not devil incarnate either. It's always recommended a person consume a variety of proteins from different sources and at different times

Those saying that soy is bad and to avoid it at all costs are simply being close minded is all. I wish you would open up a bit more because the benefits you could be reaping by taking soy as opposed to not are significant.

[TriStateTough]

Sorry but soy was never meant to be eaten by humans, or even animals.

It is a seed and seeds are designed to make plants, not be eaten, and thus they carry highly deadly poisons like isoflavones to kill you once you eat them.

[IraHays]

http://www.the7thfire.com/health_and...about_soy.html

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtsoy.html

[7:360]

Sorry but soy was never meant to be eaten by humans, or even animals.

It is a seed and seeds are designed to make plants, not be eaten, and thus they carry highly deadly poisons like isoflavones to kill you once you eat them.

Oh that's right. Seeds make plants and plants are all bad = ignorant generalization. No need to apologize my friend, your statements have no reasoning to back them up. Look at the ancients, all they used to eat was what they could grow and harvest plus fish.

If you wanted to bring up something that "was never meant to be eaten by humans", I would be more impressed if you said meat or dairy milk. Meat digestion produces a lot of acids in the bowel. One of these is deoxycholic acid which becomes carcinogenic in the digestion process. Meat eaters have a much greater amount of this acid, in the bowel, than do vegetarians. So, human intestines have difficulty dealing with the high fat and low fiber, and are designed very differently from carnivores like cats and dogs. These animals have
intestines which allow for much quicker passage of waste through the intestines. Human bowels are long and wind back and forth whereas carnivore bowels are smooth and short for quick elimination of waste. Carnivores therefore are not subject to colon cancer as are humans.

As for cow's milk - it isn't designed to be ingested by humans. the amino acid profile and enzymes in it weren't intended for humans. Thats why they recommend children reduce cows milk intake to a minimum as it can effect brain development, allergies, so on and so forth.

See, if you would've said something like THAT^ I would be able to agree with you. But apologizing for not agreeing and then throwing in your own opinion doesn't make what you're saying any more factual.

[jamez123]

BUMP to that. They live way longer and healthier lives than "white people" aka the average Americans so they must be doing something right and soy is a STAPLE in their diets.

They live way longer? What like an average of 2 or 3 years longer? Big deal. They're also 4'9 100 lbs... not exactly how I want to live my life.

Those saying that soy is bad and to avoid it at all costs are simply being close minded is all. I wish you would open up a bit more because the benefits you could be reaping by taking soy as opposed to not are significant.

Sure, maybe we can eat everything doctors think is poisonous and toxic! We certainly don't want to be close minded with our health do we!

[7:360]

They live way longer? What like an average of 2 or 3 years longer? Big deal. They're also 4'9 100 lbs... not exactly how I want to live my life.

I'm only going to refer to the first half of your post (it's the only part that was valuable). It's not about how long you live, but the quality of life you have. That's the main point.

Would you rather live to 73 years of age ridden with disease and illness or to 77 minus the illnesses and disease? I mean "it's only 2 or 3 years longer" right? "Big deal".

There's no getting through someone's mind once they've made it up so oh well.