Very well constructed article criticizing low-carb and keto diets

[plornive]

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=67
I agree with some of the statements in this article, but disagree with most of the comprehensive meaning. Nevertheless this is a great read.

[Original Poster]

Yeah, it make a few decent points. But I think many are general statments about dieting in general. Good read, I guess.

KETO FOEVER !!!

[WHOSYOURDADDY02]

I would really like fitnessman to read and respond to this article. There are a few things I agree with..and a bunch that I dont. Futhermore, while the guy lists of ton of stats, there are absolutely no sources for these statistics....

Some of the items are contradictory or otherwise, not relevant to the Ketogenic diet... he states "In a true carb depleted state it takes 24 hours after lifting for protein synthesis to shift into a positive balance. "

On the next page he states, "In terms of overall growth, recovery can be spurred in as little as 4 hours with rapid glycogen replenishment post workout."

As we all know, the ketogenic diet uses large insulin spikes post workout to induce an anabolic state until the next workout. In which case. I understand that by "a true carb depleted state", he means that one isnt replenishing their glycogen stores after working out. Since this is not the case, this should be omitted. Anyway, I could critique alot, but I am more interested in hearing what fit has to say. Thanks

[Original Poster]

hey daddyO,

Good catch. I sort of skim read it and didn't catch that.
Good Job.

I think the base argument of the article misses it's target and is off base on keto.

[fitnessman]

A good read I agree.

But

The research on insulin resistance just isnt there and needs to be covered more. The % of the American that has developed insulin resistance has increased at an alarming rate due to over consumption of carbs. Read, Blood sugar blues. An outstanding book that covers this quite well.

The biggest flaw in the article was that there was nothing about protein conversion to glucose in the body. This is a HUGE factor that is over looked by many, I was one during my first few years of research. Now I have a better grasp on the whole protein conversion issue. Up to 58% of protein can be converted to glucose in the body(atkins, eades, lowery and about a thousand others have proved this). On a proper keto my best guess is high 20 percentile.

Anyone on this board who knows of my diets know I stress veggies(high fiber low gi) nuts, and some fruits. Macro nutrients are critical.

Also there is nothing mentioned about the majority of people who "gain" muscle and strength and a proper ketogenic diet.

The last paragraph made good points. Balance is good for 90% of the people I have on diets. The other 10%(myself included) A ketogenic diet is a god send.

[shaun]

fitnessman:
do you secrete any insulin on protein diet?

[WHOSYOURDADDY02]

Originally posted by fitnessman
The research on insulin resistance just isnt there and needs to be covered more. The % of the American that has developed insulin resistance has increased at an alarming rate due to over consumption of carbs. Read, Blood sugar blues. An outstanding book that covers this quite well.

The biggest flaw in the article was that there was nothing about protein conversion to glucose in the body. This is a HUGE factor that is over looked by many, I was one during my first few years of research. Now I have a better grasp on the whole protein conversion issue. Up to 58% of protein can be converted to glucose in the body(atkins, eades, lowery and about a thousand others have proved this). On a proper keto my best guess is high 20 percentile.

Anyone on this board who knows of my diets know I stress veggies(high fiber low gi) nuts, and some fruits. Macro nutrients are critical.

Also there is nothing mentioned about the majority of people who "gain" muscle and strength and a proper ketogenic diet.

The last paragraph made good points. Balance is good for 90% of the people I have on diets. The other 10%(myself included) A ketogenic diet is a god send.

Doesn't he touch on it when he states, "...the other problem with this is up to 40% of your dietary protein can be converted to glucose when carbs are heavily restricted. Since the body can only absorb so much protein per sitting it becomes near impossible to optimize protein intake when 40% of what is absorbed is being lost to glucose conversion"

I remember you saying back a week or two ago that the conversion rate was much lower (around 20-25%) on a ketogenic diet. I do not know where he gets this 40% figure. As far as gaining muscle on a ketogenic goes..... If you were to use his logic, that would suggest that an anabolic state is active longer than the catabolic one.... The author obviously isn't taking into account the importance of the post workout insulin spike. If his figures are true, then creating that insulin spike and replenishing the glycogen stores is extremely essential as it makes the difference between an anabolic state within 4 hours, or 24 hours.... ...

[fitnessman]

Missed that part. I read alot of articles and look for the main theme. I get where he is coming from just dont agree on all points.

I have no idea where he got the 40% figure. I can back a 58% conversion rate with a ton of people. The conversion rate on a properly done keto is up for debate. I am sticking with no higher than 29% from my reasearch and others on that one.

Let not forget there is also for advanced dieters who know how their body works a mid-week carb spike. A tricky issue, so I dont recommend it to most. Works well for me.

Most of the informatiom I attempt to help with on this board is basic. It is very hard to explain all aspects of something in a message board...I do try though

[KungFuLifter]

Fitnessman:
I plan on starting a new thread on this subject in the nutrition section but I was hoping you'd be willing to go into more detail here about the veggies and nuts and fruits you recommend. IE: which veggies you eat, how you prepare them etc.

Thanks!

[KungFuLifter]

And regarding the article...
correct me if I'm wrong but the author refers to the diet that he is criticizing as "low-carb" throughout the article. He mentions Keto diets in the beginning, but after that it's "low-carb." Know what I mean? He implies that Low-Carb = Keto and allows the reader to believe it while he doesn't actually criticise a Keto diet but a low-carb one. So I feel this article is misleading.

But maybe I'm being too picky and he is indeed putting down a Keto diet... I think he totally ignores the role fat plays! Take fat out of the equation and yes, Low Carb, High protein isn't such a great idea... without the fat, it isn't even a Keto diet because where the heck would the ketones come from? I used to think Low-Carb = Ketogenic diet and have since learned better. I think this author should do the same. Learn the difference!

[plornive]

I'm of the opinion that most diets have thier places. High carb diets work for some, keto diets work for some, isocaloric diets work for some, etc. This article doesn't differentiate between ketodiets and low-carb diets, isn't always accurate, and basically assumes keto diets are not tweaked for the dieter. Personally, I can't stand keto diets and now reserve them for crash dieting (fat-fast) or near the end of a cutting phase. This is just a personal preference, and I think that when the dust settles keto diets will be an accepted and aknowledged way to lose fat and retain a muscle very well.

[fitnessman]

I love this board! Its threads like this that keep me coming back and wanting to continue to be a mod.

I enjoy it because I see younger guys(and older) doing their own research and making informed educated posts.

It also forces me to keep on my toes!!!

Kung: Nuts-
Almonds, macadameia(sp), walnuts, pistashio.

Veggies: brussel sprouts, spinach, snow pea pods, green beans, lettuce(all greens) summer squash, zuccinni, cabbage, eggplant.

fruit: limited quanities of: blueberry, strawberry, cantalope, honey dew

[WHOSYOURDADDY02]

Originally posted by fitnessman
I love this board! Its threads like this that keep me coming back and wanting to continue to be a mod.

hell...we sure enjoy having you here!!!

[KungFuLifter]

I definitely agree! It's great having you here to bug with all our questions, Fitnessman.
Before I found this board I was driving all my friends and family nuts with my theories and discoveries about nutrition and exercise... now I can bore everyone here instead!! LOL j/k it's awesome to exchange ideas with so many knowledgeable people.

Thanks for the Grocery list! I'll be sure to head out tomorrow and go shopping. Man, I spend about as much on food as I do rent these days ><

[fitnessman]

KUNG: Buy bulk foods, that helps alot. Heck I have 5 kids, talk about a big food bill!!!

I raise livestock, which helps out quite well

[KungFuLifter]

LOL 5 kids!? You don't need weights around the house. Just bench press the little ones.
Bulk sounds good lol. I've been trying to eat a lot more and I've almost doubled my trips to the grocery store lately. 8)

[WHOSYOURDADDY02]

Originally posted by fitnessman


I raise livestock, which helps out quite well

LOLOLOL. -- Got any FINA on that farm??