This is my first post!... anyway...I wanted to know if anyone has ever tried Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty routines, and if so, what kind of gains have you experienced?
Thanks
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04-10-2002, 07:23 PM #1
anyone tried Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty?
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04-11-2002, 12:46 PM #2
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04-12-2002, 12:54 AM #3
Not used Mentzer's specifically but its all HIT style which you can read about on cyberpump.com - I have used that type of style, so has big red and several others - it does work
"my grocery bill looks like a ransom note"
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04-12-2002, 06:19 AM #4
I haven't tried HD, but I do a HIT cycle of 4-8 weeks pretty frequently. I notice pretty good strength gains, but usually plateau after 6-8 weeks.
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04-15-2002, 09:39 AM #5
Yates Style
Never tried Mentzer's per se, but I am a big believer in Dorian Yate's "Blood and Guts" style of training - which is very similar.
Both styles are based on the same premise - hit the muscle hard - very, very hard - hit it quickly, then go home. You don't grow when you're at the gym, you only grow when you've hit the muscle hard enough so it gets the message, then give it adequate recovery and nutrition to do so. But! You don't want to hit the muscle too hard, so it can't recover adequately. Makes a lot of sense. And the theory holds up under practice.
The catch is is that you simply can't go all out forever. Eventually, you have to cut back. It's called cycling your training. After a handle of weeks training all out (one or two sets per exercise, 2-4 exercises per bodypart, with intensity techniques built in like drop sets, forced reps, rest-pause, partial reps, etc., 5-8 reps before adding intensity techniques, one bodypart per week), you'll need to take it easy for a couple of weeks. Maybe even a month or so. You can do this by increasing the rep range, increasing rest, decreasing workout frequency, dropping the intensity techniques. Don't just go through the motions, but decrease the intensity a bit to allow your body to repair itself. Then, after a couple of weeks, get back at it.
Listen to your body. If your muscles are still too tired from the previous work out, take an extra day off. Also, be smart about your workout schedule. I never schedule a workout after leg or back day. The reason is that both of these workouts tax the entire body to such a degree that you need a day or two to recuperate.
The bottom line is, does this work? I've been working out for more than a decade. I've tried all sorts of workouts. Including the opposite extreme - the high volume Arnold style. And I can say this is the best workout I have ever, ever used. And I will always use it. If you don't cheat yourself, and really go all out (all out doesn't mean "be stupid" though), you'll be very happy. I'm 6'2'', 245lbs. About 12% bodyfat (working on this for the summer! By the way, if you add cardio - which I do recommend - keep it light and adjust your weight training accordingly if you get more intense). 20inch arms (pumped), 52 inch chest (cold), 500 lb deadlifts for 5 reps, 400 lb squats for 15 reps. And never touched a steriod. Ever. Supplements are milk and egg protein, Met-Rx, glutamine peptide, creatine, and vitamins/minerals, and currently a thermogenic (for the summer). Get about 250 grams of protein on training days, about 180 otherwise. That's it! I've been using Blood and Guts for about 4 years and have never been stronger or harder looking. I guess you can tell I recommend it!
Chris.
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04-15-2002, 09:57 AM #6
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Chris:
Could you please post your work out routine.
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04-15-2002, 12:14 PM #7
i find it is a good way to shock the body and change pace. i did a cycle on it for about 6 weeks and notcied gains mainly due to the fact that it was simply something different. it wouldn't work for people such as myself longterm to base the bulk of my training on it though. for me, i find it hard to recruit all of my muscle fibers and really feel them work from just one exercise per body part.
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04-15-2002, 06:39 PM #8
Workout routine
This is a typical routine during the "Blood and Guts" cycle:
Saturday: Chest/Triceps (I recently changed this combo from Chest/Biceps because I work back on Sunday which really hits biceps hard).
Chest:
Incline Smith Press - lowest angle possible - about 40 degrees (I only occassionally have a workout partner, which forces me to utilize machines to a degree - thankfully my gym's Smith is feels like actualy weight) 2 or 3X warm up, depending on feel. And when I say warm up, I mean it. Up to 70% of max set weight for the day. For instance, 135 for 10, 185 for 4, 225 for 4. Then on to the working sets:
1st set: 275 for 6 reps (if with partner, will try a forced rep or two).
2nd set: 275 for 4-5 reps (if you're doing this right, you should not be able to lift the same amount of weight on consecutive sets for the same reps). Then add intensity - last week it was rest-pause. Meaning, after the 5th rep, rack the weight, wait about 15 seconds, try for 1 or 2 more. Rack the weight, wait another 15 seconds, try another rep.
Weighted Dips: usually no warm up here. Strap 50-90 lbs on (last week it was only 50 because I was shooting for a higher rep range).
1st set: 8 reps
2nd set: 6 reps, strip 25 lbs off, do another 4 reps, take all weight off, do another 4 reps.
Flat Flyes: no warm up
1st: 75 for 8
2nd: 85 for 5 + 60 for 5 + 45 for 5
Triceps:
Dumbell Extensions: warm up set
1st: 120 for 5
2nd: 110 for 5 + 95 for 4 + 80 for 6
Cable Pressdowns:
1st: 140 for 8 + 120 for 4 + 100 for 6
Overhead Cable Rope Extensions:
1st: 150 for 6 + 120 for 4 + 90 for 6
That's it. Well, almost, I throw in a "pump" set for chest - like Nautilus flyes for 15-20 reps to get the blood flowing back to the chest. If I'm alone, it takes about 50 minutes, if with a partner about an hour. This is my longest workout. My shortest is Legs, which takes about 40 minutes if I'm alone - but the leg workout by far is the most taxing.
My split is:
Saturday: Chest/Triceps
Sunday: Back, Calves, Rear Delts
Monday: off
Tuesday: Shoulders/Biceps
Wednesday: if schedule permits, off, if not legs
Thursday: If off Wednesday, Legs with a little calves thrown in.
Friday: off
Right now I do 4 days of cardio in the morning before work - Monday through Thursday. Yes, I know, I do legs on either Wed or Thursday, but my cardio is moderate and I haven't noticed any detrimental effects. Although I am sure my lifting weight suffers a bit - but you know what, with 400 lb squats for 15 reps and 1100 lb leg presses, that's okay!!! In any case, like I said earlier, I'm gearing up for summer vacation and my wife and I would like to drop a few.
Right after the workout (not more than 1/2 hour), I take a Myoplex shake with added creatine and gluatmine peptide. They seemed to have changed the formula to mostly whey, so it's a good choice to get amino acids to the muscles fast. About an hour or less after that I make this awesome Metrx/milk/ice/glutamine/banana/peanut butter shake. Damn, I could sell this thing it's so good. And lots of protein and carbs which is the real reason I drink it. Then, an hour or two later, a real food protein, like tuna. Before bed on a day I workout, I take a milk&egg protein shake. This seems like a lot, but I don't spend more than $120/month on supplements and usually well below that.
I understand that many people feel they just don't get the "pump" when they do this kind of workout. Actually, I've never felt it more - especially when you do strip sets and forced reps. Rest-pause is a great intensity technique, but I find it helps more with strength than giving you a good pump - it works on the "ATP" body system really well.
Please remember, every several weeks, I mix it up. When I hit a plateau, I may increase weight and drop reps for a week or two. When I'm wiped out, and believe me, doing this you get wiped out, I back off the intensity. There are times, especially when I "back off" the intensity I add a third set. But during the hard core cycles, I stick to 1-2 working sets.
This style of training gives the best workout by far, in my opinion.
This message is really long - if you would like more information, let me know and I'll email whoever.
Oh, and if it's any indication, the workout I outlined above was my true workout last Saturday morning. It's Monday night. My chest and triceps still ache!
One more thing - I've been working out for more than 10 years. I didn't wake up one day and deadlift a Yugo. It took time, patience, and passion. So, if you're just starting out, don't even attempt the weight outlined above. Use a weight you can handle and impeccable form or else you will hurt yourself.
Last thing - an added bonus! I've got a more than full time job, a wife and beautiful little girl, and a life outside the gym. Another added bonus to this workout is that it's only twice during the week, and I workout early morning on the weekend. Gym time totals about 4 hours a week. Mass, strength, fun, and a life. What other workout can give you this???
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04-15-2002, 07:26 PM #9
Those are some pretty impressive numbers chris..
I too follow a dorian yates HIT style workout. I've been lifting this way since the summer of 00, and have never looked back.
My workout is like this (all one set to complete muscle failure):
mon:
squats
leg curls
leg extensions
barbell curl
dumbell curl
wed:
bench (sometimes i pre exhuast w. flies)
incline (i too like a low angle)
flies (if not done before bench)
over head db ext
tri press
fri:
chins
rows
deadlifts
military press
side lateral raises
Br
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04-16-2002, 04:37 PM #10
Big Red -
Glad to hear I'm not alone! And it looks like you're even more efficient than I am. Hey, I just got my Muscle and Fitness mag yesterday (it's good, uh, bathroom reading). Apparently next month's issue will do a expose on Yates and his blood and guts training style. Look out for it!
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11-22-2009, 10:20 AM #11
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im during mentzer's consolidated now, and i have to say with some slight modifications (i added rest-pause to really get to failure) its worked incredibly for me.
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11-23-2009, 11:31 PM #12
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dorian stated on youtube its the greatest workout in the world, mentzer hit is the best if you know how to do it and understand it
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03-01-2010, 04:43 PM #13
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Mike Mentzer′s Lost Heavy Duty Secrets
By Paul Becker
While many people know the basics of Heavy Duty training, the advanced techniques are known by only a few. The advanced and super advanced techniques were fully researched and tested by Mike in the late 70′s, but following the infamous 1980 Mr.Olympia, Mike retired from competition. After that he worked as a personal trainer and concentrated on what works best for beginners and intermediates. And so Heavy Duty for advanced and super advanced trainees became all but lost, even though Mike made the best gains of his life using these techniques.
Climbing The Ladder Of Intensity
Mike knew that as a bodybuilder grew bigger and stronger, he would eventually require an even more intense training stress if he hopes to continue progressing. If the stress is not more intense he will stagnate and stay at the same level of size and strength.
Beginners
For beginners starting a weight training program is a huge leap in intensity from not training, and this is why they make such rapid gains at first. To keep progressing they can simply keep increasing the weights and decreasing the rest periods between sets. When they stop making gains this way they are ready for the next level of intensity.
Intermediates
At this stage a more intense stress is required, this is be done by using Pre-Exhaustion sets, for example a set of Leg Extensions to failure followed by a set of Leg Press (or Squats) to failure. Also forced reps and negatives to go beyond the point of positive failure can be occasionally used. These techniques will carry someone into the advanced level, Mike reached this point and using these techniques he was unable to get bigger or stronger, this forced him to do further research into the highest levels of intensity.
Advanced
At this level Mike found that he was so strong and his willingness to work at maximum effort was so high that each rep of a set was so intense that oxygen debt and lactic acid build up was practically immediate and severe enough that he was forced to stop due to cardiovascular limitation rather then because he reached a point of actual muscular failure. He looked for a way that he could do even more intense reps while at the same time slowing the build up of lactic acid and the onset of oxygen debt in his muscles.
The way he did this was to do his own version of Rest Pause training, he used a weight that would allow him to do one all out maximum rep, then rested for 10 seconds, this would give enough time for his muscle to clear out waste products and bring new fuel and oxygen so he could do another all out rep. After the second rep and another 10 seconds rest he would have his training partner help him do another all out rep, or he would reduce the weight by 20%. He would then rest 15 seconds and do his last all out rep. This was considered one set, with each and every rep of the set being an all out effort. An example rest pause workout that Mike would do for his chest was Pec Deck 1 set of 4 Rest Pause reps, Incline Bench Press 1 set of 4 Rest Pause reps and Dips (Negative only style) 1 set of 5 reps. Mike then had to ask himself what could be more intense then Rest Pause training?
Super Advanced Heavy Duty
Mikes next step up the ladder of intensity was what he called Infitonic training; he followed each maximum positive rep of a Rest Pause set with a maximum negative Rep. He had his training partner push down a little on the negative and he would fight to resist it, lowering it as slowly as possible. He then rested 15 seconds before his next maximum positive and negative rep.
The very highest level of Heavy Duty he called Omni-Contraction training, meaning all contraction. There are three ways a muscle can contract, that is lifting a weight (positive), lowering a weight (negative) and holding a weight (static).
In Omni-Contraction training Mike would make each a maximum effort. He would do his one all out maximum positive rep, followed by a maximum negative, but during the negative he would stop the weight and actually try to raise the weight again (which was impossible). He would do these static holds at three different points during the negative rep, the first was at the top, close to the fully contracted position, the second was halfway down and the third was close to the bottom position. Each position was held for a count of 3.
The Results
Mike and his brother Ray used these advanced and super advanced techniques in the summer of 1979 and it resulted in Mike gaining 14 pounds of pure muscle in 9 weeks (while losing fat and at an already advanced level of mass and strength), and winning his first pro show beating the likes of Robby Robinson, Danny Padilla and Roy Callendar. While Ray was able to improve so much he walked in and took the Mr. America crown that year.
So maybe, just maybe, if you have tried Heavy Duty and it stopped working it was because you didn′t know the higher techniques on your way up the ladder of intensity. Try them for yourself and find out
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06-08-2010, 06:28 AM #14
I read "The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer", and "High -Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way", and found both to be very informative. Also, I read Dorian Yates articles in Muscular Development Mag. I have modified my workout around the training philosophy of these two men. In the past 2 months I have lost 7 lbs and have gained muscle and finally starting to see some muscle develpment and a few cuts!!!
Happy Training,
MsBold
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06-08-2010, 06:48 AM #15
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Mike Mentzer's ideas were bro-science at their worst. His concepts were based on very flawed ideas regarding recovery and muscle adaptation that coaches and trainers who make their living training professional athletes, have found to be to opposite of true for a conditioned human being.
... and yes I have read a lot of articles and things he wrote. Every coach who trains Olympic weight lifters knows for an absolute fact that the more often an athlete lifts heavy, the stronger they become. This is why the one's who win medals or set records train for 8 hours a day 6 days a week and have upwards of 12 sessions per week for specific lifts (using 90-100% 1rm). Over 50% of the muscle growth in very large bodybuilders is sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is known by scientists, athletic trainers and anyone with a great deal of experience with training to be the result of: higher training volume at a sustained workload.
The science behind muscle hypertrophy and athletic performance has come a very long way since Mike's death, and his ideas while interesting, are about as scientific as the church declaring that the earth was flat (they changed this imposed belief in light of evidence to the contrary in modern times).
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06-08-2010, 10:49 AM #16
the big problem about HIT,heavy duty ,mike e etc is not the concept of low volume or long rest,this problem we can change and work more volume and more frequencly.
The big problem is the slow candance
Hit and heavy duty systems said that we have to do 2-4 secs up and 4 secs down
so in that way we are so far to 1RM that we dont estimulate the concentric force and we became slower loosing power.
i tried for 4 weeks heavy duty
results are intresting
3 workouts for week
30 minuts of workout
i gain 1kg
i was in better shape
i gain chest,back and legs
before HD
bench--6x90kgs
during HD using 4 up and 4 down
5x70kgs
after HD
6x80kgs
i gain a lot of resistance,endurance but lost force,power,strengh
why?
because this candence 4-2-4 negligance totaly the concentric fase
off corse,i was training close to 50%RM
so what is the point
work close to 80% RM in medium volume and than in the last set use HD style with slow candance to work the eccentric fase
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06-15-2010, 01:39 PM #17
Can someone post there HIT workout including number of reps/supesets/to failure and total sets?
I am trying to find a good HIT 3 day routine
Thanks
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06-15-2010, 02:36 PM #18No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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06-15-2010, 02:53 PM #19
Anyone whos anyone always knows to have a slow eccentric and an explosive concentric. Your views are flawed. If you were purposefully going slow on the concentric, thats on you. If your lifting a load thats your 5rm (around 80% or more of your 1rm)
....even if you were to use as much force as you possibly can, it would still take a good 3 seconds or so to lift that weight....the more weight you lift=the more force you must produce or else that weight aint goin no where...
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06-15-2010, 03:14 PM #20
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06-15-2010, 03:37 PM #21No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
Ironwill Gym:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388
Ironwill2008 Journal:
https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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06-16-2010, 06:20 PM #22
About the only one worth mentioning is drdarden.com and even then I hesitate to recommend it. It's so filled with bickering and trolls, it's hard to discuss any training over there. I would just recommend getting some books by Mike Mentzer and Ellington Darden. Also read the original Nautilus Bulletins by Arthur Jones and any article you can find from Dr. Ken Leistner. They will have all the information you need to develop a HIT routine.
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06-17-2010, 09:07 AM #23
- Join Date: Jun 2010
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I have used MM HD for some time now, in one form or another. However, I always had a problem with the rep tempo. Just seemed unnatural to me, though I see the validity of it (ie to take momentum out of the equation).
Then I came across Dorian Yates, actually its in some of Mentzer's books. Found "Blood and Guts" and "Week in the Dungeon" and it really appealed to me. He uses ALOT of mentzer's ideas such as:
-Pre-Exhausting
-Training to Failure
-Focusing on correct form at all times
-Time out of the gym
-And the selection of exercises ( Close-Grip Pull Downs, Pullovers, are just some examples)
-# of Sets and reps
However, what he focused is on is CONTROLLED explosive positive movement, hold in the fully contracted position, and slow and controlled negative. Think of it as the rep has 3 points, if you just do the positive movement and forgo the other two you are doing 1/3 of the rep.
It's amazing when I see people in the gym that are throwing the weight around, and I have no idea what kind of benefit they are achieving. If you are unable to hold a weight in a fully contracted position, you didnt get it there by muscle power, but by momentum.
Muscle has three levels of strength:
-Lifting of the weight ( the weakest)
-Holding of the weight
-Lowering of the weight ( the strongest)
I'm not going to lie, its just hard work. It will take sometime to get accustomed to the level of intensity needed, but once you do, there's no feeling like going to failure. And true failure. A lot of people think they are training to failure, but are selling themselves short. The body doesnt like this type of training ( which is why its so effective), the mind and body will try to get you to stop any way it can, but you must make a conscious effort to train through those mental barriers.
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06-17-2010, 01:04 PM #24
If you perform it the way it was written, then there is no better way of training. As you get stronger, you take more days off of training.
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06-17-2010, 01:23 PM #25
- Join Date: Jun 2009
- Location: Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom (Great Britain)
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Other than his approach goes against, and is often in complete contradiction with, all the scientific literature and research that has been done on strength training in the last 20 years and the methods used by Olympic teams with the highest record setters and medals in any sport involving power or strength. Even basic observations of humans who do day to day physical activity and the physical effects on their strength and muscle completely contradict MM's ideas. His fans, and himself, always hail his work as being a scientific approach to training. As those ideas have been proven to be flawed by scientific observation they should probably not be taken as gospel.
The impact his work has had on the weight training community in the west is now our obsession with overtraining. Here is a hint that the common man who does physical activity finds out, and is well know by Olympic coaches and trainers of the world's top athletes: the more often the body is subjected to a specific physical action (doing a deadlift with close to 1rm is an example of a specific physical action) the better and more efficient it becomes at it. If you want to be able to do more chin-ups, do chin-ups successfully (meaning NOT doing them to failure... a failure to do something trains the body to be good at being UNABLE to perform an activity with a given workload) every day. Simply put, the more often that you do a specific lift with a given weight load, the easier it becomes for the body to repeat this performance... the stronger you become. Granted this is not infinite and why short reloading periods are useful, but you'll find that the strongest individuals in the world on given physical activities train those activities day in and day out... not once a week... not once a 10-day. The concepts that we have adopted regarding weight training in the US are utter ridiculous and contradict basic understandings of the human body, and MM played a part in this. Training a body part once a week and tell ourselves it is actually better if we do this, is a perfect example of the type of ideals a society like ours would take to heart... the same society that would rather drive a car than walk to the corner store, and sit on their fat-asses eating cheese-burgers and french fries while watching tv (after a day at the office) instead of going to the gym to lift weights, or doing some chin-ups on the tree in the back yard.
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06-17-2010, 02:54 PM #26
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08-06-2010, 10:05 PM #27
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08-06-2010, 11:34 PM #28
Hit has had a positive effect on my training too.
I follow a lot closer to Yates than Mentzer but I've learned from both and adapted as needed.
I need more frequency and volume than mentzer or Yates. but still less volume and frequency than most. The big thing for me is staying controlled and explosive on the positives and slowing down on the negatives.......half the speed or slower on the negs than the positive. And pushing all my main sets beyond failure.
I haven't been doing any pre exhausting lately and only a few isolation sets. mostly compounds for the last month or 2.
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11-28-2010, 02:34 AM #29
I do a version of Mentzer's Ideal Routine, in a four day split, with some modifications based on available equipment and my weak points.
Day One: Chest and Back
1. Pull-Ups (I try for twelve, using rest pause toward the end - - then, every other time, I add negatives)
2. pec-deck type machine fly(I use a cheap Weider machine, but...), as pre-exhaust.
3. Chest Press using the higher grip (Incline bench would be better, but I train at home and don't have a spotter -- with the chest press, I can go to failure, with no worries). At failure, I switch to the lower grip and can squeeze out 2 or 3 more.
4. Deadlift.
Rest at least two days (Mentzer says at least three, but, two is working for me, for now.)
Day Two: Legs
1. Leg Extension (pre-exhaust)
2. One legged squats (I'd do regular squats, if I worked out in a gym, or had better equipment.)
3. Leg Curl
4. Standing Calf Raises (I do them one leg at a time, on a stair step, going back and forth, then finish off doing it with both legs - - technically, maybe it can be considered 3 sets? Or an extended rest pause set?)
Rest two days
Day Three: Shoulders and Arms
1. Lateral Raises
2. Behind the neck press
3. Reverse upright row (very little movement, since it's an awkward position, but heavy weight and you can really feel it in the rear delts - - it's not an exercise Mentzer recommended, but one I found works)
4. Shrugs
5.Triceps push downs or Triceps extensions (I think they're called seated skullcrushers, nowadays)
6. Barbell or dumbbell standing curls.
7. Behind the back forearm curls/holds (hold time is until you feel you're going to drop the bar)
Mentzer didn't do specific forearm exercises, but forearms are a weak point for me. I have a strong enough grip, but had little size, until I started doing forearm work, heavy duty style.
Rest two days
Day Four: Repeat Leg Day.
Rest two days
Back to Day 1
I used to work out with one of Arnold's more basic routines, but, aside from decent arms, it didn't get me anywhere. I still can't stand Ayn Rand, though...
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11-28-2010, 06:07 AM #30
the tempo is the big problem
4 secs up and 4 secs down = light weight
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