any charts on how much whey protein better than egg protein pwo?
well... currently doing egg... but reading digestion times maybe i'm doing the wrong thing and shorting myself... trying to avoid milk but if its that much of a difference might do it anyway. Does it really matter that much... I know egg has higher nitrogen retention anyway and 100bv... HMMMM... thoughts?
anyway that "rating" is just that. Whole Egg is considered 100, and that is an arbitrary number. So it is possible to have a higher number...for example whey isolate is usually rated from 105-160, while egg whites alone are rated more like an 85-90.
Personally I would say limiting yourself to one protein type is not a great idea, and going for more diversity is going to be better in the long run for gains, unless you have allergies.
anyway that "rating" is just that. Whole Egg is considered 100, and that is an arbitrary number. So it is possible to have a higher number...for example whey isolate is usually rated from 105-160, while egg whites alone are rated more like an 85-90.
I actually know of that study and it is wrong, nothing can be higher than 100% BV. Whey has a higher chemical score though. As for any other real life studies I am not sure. I'm more looking for evidence of better muscular growth from whey than say egg.
well... currently doing egg... but reading digestion times maybe i'm doing the wrong thing and shorting myself... trying to avoid milk but if its that much of a difference might do it anyway. Does it really matter that much... I know egg has higher nitrogen retention anyway and 100bv... HMMMM... thoughts?
why are you trying to avoid milk? A whey/casein combo has been proven to be the most effective.
Protein Quality is determined by the biological value or BV. The higher the BV value the higher the protein quaility. BV is a measure of protein quality based on the percentage of protein retained by the body. Whey has a BV of 104, while egg is 94, casein is 77, and soy is 73. So, if 100 grams of whey protein are consumed, 100% will be retained by the body (the only reason whey's BV is over 100 is due to a margin of error in calculation). In comparison, only 77% of casein is retained
why are you trying to avoid milk? A whey/casein combo has been proven to be the most effective.
personal reasons (Maybe I have read too much on rBGH and what is a natural diet, cows in evolution etc.) plus lactose intolerant. I know people keep saying this but where are the real studies that whey will generate that much more gains than say egg whites? I have to take wpi anyway and its a bit expensive. Am i cutting my self short by not using it PWO over another source? I've been on wpi before and been on about 2 months of eggs... I really haven't noticed a diff, but whey seems to be the end all for pwo for everybody. Maybe I have read too much on rBGH.
By the way BV is all to due with nitrogen retention... but there is more to it than just BV, amino acid profiles, glutamine content... posssible glutathione in whey that is going through my head.
I actually know of that study and it is wrong, nothing can be higher than 100% BV. Whey has a higher chemical score though. As for any other real life studies I am not sure. I'm more looking for evidence of better muscular growth from whey than say egg.
thats why i said it was an arbitrary number, not an actual bioavailability percentage. Somehow I guess that study or an earlier one decided that whole eggs were "perfect" lol
to the OP:
as far as science about whey its all over the place, many muscle and fitness type magazines cite research in their articles about the power of whey in muscle building. I know that the International Journal of Sports Medicine is one place they look for their research.
also if you are having egg whites without the yolk the protein is less bioavailable than whey with a rating of less than 90.
The process to get whey isolates also shoudl afaik isolate the protein, and that would mean you are getting the protein only, not the protein plus random hormones and other garbage.
why are you trying to avoid milk? A whey/casein combo has been proven to be the most effective.
Where is that study?
Here's one showing Isolate is best. Greater lean mass, fat loss, and strength. I'll stick to my isolate.
The WI group achieved a significantly greater gain (P < 0.01) in lean mass than the C group (5.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 0.8 +/- 0.4 kg for WI and C, respectively) and a significant (P < 0.05) change in fat mass (-1.5 +/- 0.5 kg) compared to the C group (+0.2 +/- 0.3 kg). The WI group also achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group in each assessment of strength. When the strength changes were expressed relative to body weight, the WI group still achieved significantly greater (P < 0.05) improvements in strength compared to the C group.
thanks guys, i might just say screw it and do eggs pre work out and stick with whey again post work out... can't get around science I suppose. Also further reading is saying eggs 1-3 hours digestion. dayum... while whey is 30 mins or less. Also I need to purchase quick as prices bout to jump. I generally get in egg white, chicken, beef and fish everyday, guess I'll be adding whey back into the mix... one of them should work haha.
pI know people keep saying this but where are the real studies that whey will generate that much more gains than say egg whites?
ipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Dec;36(12):2073-81. Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
PURPOSE:: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS:: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS:: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min.100 mL leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min.100 mL leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH ( approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS:: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.
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^^the point here is in bold. if you read the results, whey had a superior ability to facilitate leucine uptake, while casein slightly edged out whey's ability to facilitate phenylalanine uptake, but neither was deemed superior across the board.
now for the ONLY study on CHRONIC EFFECT (effect over extended duration, not acute/immediate effect) that really convinced me that casein was not a second-rate protein, but possibly superior to whey:
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Demling RH, DeSanti L. Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(1):21-9. Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.
We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% (8% decrease) and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3% (4% decrease). The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6 (placebo), 7.0 +/- 2.1 (casein) and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg (whey) in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.
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^^in this study, the casein group had double the fat loss compared to the whey group, as well as double the amount of lean mass gain. not only that, but the casein group also had about double the strength increase compared to whey.. what more do you want? lol.. there's another study by lands, comparing a whey supplement "immunocal" with a casein placebo, where they found better effect on endurance, antioxidant activity, & peak power in the whey group, but the study showed nowhere near the superior whoopass that the demling study (above) showed casein to have for bodybuilding purposes. furthermore, the demling study wasn't a biased product-based vested interest study either.
there's more milk studies in progress, & more are bound to support my casein. get it? case? casein?
i recommend having both, & stop worrying about casein slowing down the absorption of whey. that's too simplistic, because it might not matter at all.. as i've mentioned before, you might be better off worrying about whey getting in the way of casein. but once again, have both.
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Demling et al (2000) compared two groups on a 2100 to 2300kcal diet containing 143gP (26%), 286gC (52%), and 49gF (20%). Both groups weight trained for twelve weeks but received 75g of their daily protein intake from either a whey-based drink or a milk-protein isolate drink (80% casein, 20% whey). At the end of the study, the milk-protein isolate group lost more fat (15.4lbs vs. 9.2lbs), gained more lean mass (9lbs vs. 4.4lbs), and gained more upper and lower body strength than the whey group. It appears that milk protein isolate ingestion, when on a training program, may be a better way to enhance fat loss and muscle gain.
might have to add casein back in as well, atleast for pre bed... i remember good gains from it while on it, just caused me to cough up mucus too much which I didn't really like.
Protein Type Protein Digestibility
Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS)1 Amino Acid Score Protein Efficiency Ratio (PER)2 Biological Value (BV)
Whey Protein 1.00* 1.14 3.2 100
Whole Egg 1.00 1.21 3.8 88-100
Casein 1.00 1.00 2.5 80
Soy Protein 0.99 0.99 2.2 74
Beef Protein 0.92 0.94 2.9 80
Canned Kidney Beans 0.68 NA NA 49
Wheat Gluten 0.25 0.47 NA 54
Egg seams to be higher than whey in both amino acid score PER and variable in BV.
This still doesn't factor in the peptides in whey, faster digestion in whey and higher glutamine in whey...
The chart also makes a good nod at how futile it is to try to be vegetarian and get makes gains for all you veggies out there (well besides soy...but then the high soy intake could cause other probs)
I've still yet to find a chart on exact rates of digestion of say egg/whey/casein/beef/chicken/soy up to each other... that would be interesting and really help me in decision of trying to go back to casein before bed if it truly is that much of a difference ... I.E. I am thinking casein might last another 3-4 hours compared to any other proteins in the gut.... thats like a whole entire day of protein each week you are getting and another 52 days of protein you are getting a year in your system by using casein if my thoughts are right. I say the night time thing because a few things I've read just having casein in the diet at any point under heavy exercise not just pwo is very beneficial.
Last edited by grapemaster; 04-18-2007 at 07:25 AM.
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