Evil Soy

[Steelhand]

Did anyone else read this article? It seems worthy of discussion on this forum.

http://t-mag.com/nation_articles/302poison.jsp

It is pretty chilling, as a parent who fed three kids soy formula, and knowing people who dabble in slimfast!

[MASSIVEVEGAN]

Originally posted by Steelhand
Did anyone else read this article? It seems worthy of discussion on this forum.



http://t-mag.com/nation_articles/302poison.jsp

It is pretty chilling, as a parent who fed three kids soy formula, and knowing people who dabble in slimfast!

I read a lot of this stuff as i am a vegatarian and incorporate a lot of soy into my diet. The problem is just like any other supplement ie... creatine, glutamine, whatever, it depends on who you ask, everybody has something different to say. every article contradicts each other, what is one to believe? I have had good results using soy as the basis of my diet! And I always wonder if I am wrong, being a male lifter, eating as much soy as I do.

I have a small son who is lactose intolerant, he likes soy milk however. Have you noticed anything in your children, that has a negative reflection on the soy formula you fed them?

[fitnessman]

http://www.mercola.com/2001/jun/13/soy_formula.htm
How Safe is Soy Infant Formula?

I am anti soy and will remain so.

[Valerie]

Its all in the way something is prepared by the manufacturers really. Here in New Zealand you can get soy products made properly and it's from organicically grown beans and their GE free and also no aluminum in sight when manufacturing such, so not the same problem here as elsewhere. I think it's unfair to brandish soy beans as poisonous half the time because most of the harmful stuff is cooked out of them in the processing (phytates) and most of the time it is HOW something is prepared and packaged not the actual soy bean itself that is guilty. There are many benefits in soy and criticising the fact that its full of phytoestrogens (and therefore not good for men) is pretty silly really because flax (linseed) is chocca with the very same stuff (phytoestrogens) and body builders are shovelling that stuff down their necks like there's no tomorrow it sems most of the time--and can't say enough good things about it. Phytoestrogens actually balance estrogen excess, they don't aggravate it or raise estrogen levels unless the estrogen levels are too low physiologically.

[fitnessman]

I knew you'd be here Val! I was just waiting!

This is one of things Val and I agree to disagree on.

Things I am against 100%

Soy
Aspartame
Splenda

Things I wish I was 100% against.

Beer
Copenhagen

LOL!

[PHIL DONAHUE]

soy is ok for women,soy is not that good for men. soy can raise estrogen levels .

[Veinpopper]

Originally posted by fitnessman
I knew you'd be here Val! I was just waiting!

This is one of things Val and I agree to disagree on.

Things I am against 100%

Soy
Aspartame
Splenda

Whats wrong with splenda? My wife mentioned it yesterday as being a better sugar replacement than sweet 'n low and I said I don't trust those new things. You never know when something bad will come out about them. There was some agreement but still... nothing bad yet...

[Valerie]

Originally posted by PHIL DONAHUE
soy is ok for women,soy is not that good for men. soy can raise estrogen levels .

lmao! Anything with the name phytoestrogen would raise estrogen levels then no? I mean why take flax and not soy? lmao!

[Valerie]

Originally posted by fitnessman
I knew you'd be here Val! I was just waiting!

This is one of things Val and I agree to disagree on.

Things I am against 100%

Soy
Aspartame
Splenda

Things I wish I was 100% against.

Beer
Copenhagen

LOL!

Well I think soy is healthier than beer for sure and I don't think you could quite lump it with splenda or aspartame. They should really be classed in the group of artificial/chemical group and soy is most definately not--it's a natural food that has been used for centuries. lol. Ironically I used to have the same opinion until I did some further study into soy and found out more about how phytoestrogens worked and then I realised that phytoestrogens actually lower estrogen where it is in excess, they don't raise the levels of estrogen unless that is what is needed in either sex. All hormones should be balanced and in synergy with eachother, it works like yin and yang and if test is higher estrogen levels often elevate anyway, but only as much as they need to be and it certainly doesn't raise enough in males to cause stunt growth. Estrogen is an important hormone for growth as well as test let's not forget and also for bone and tissue repair or bone density improvement in both men and women. The phytoestrogens work in the same way that the vitex I take works. They balance the hormone to it's normal levels or as it should be.

Speaking of the vitex I've done two months on that now and no PMS and my periods are lighter AND no more estrogen problems. I don't have any pain of discomfrot that I had and no pre menstrual boating either, or vile mood swings. Bloody marvelous stuff! I only take 200mg per night in a drop form and am really pleased with the results. It saved me going on a synthetic progesterone only pill which carry serious side effects at times. I'd recommend it for anyone that suffers PMS or any hormone imbalance.

Phytoestrogens work against estrogen dominance. If a guy has higher than the norm where estrogen levels are concerned, they will help to balance that. In this day and age with the chemicals in water and stuff (chlorine etc) I feel estrogen dominance isn't just a womans problem. Thats why the rates for prostate cancer and prostate problems are on the rise I feel.

[Valerie]

Many laboratory scientists who work with animals and molecular science techniques have found that phytoestrogens can bind to estrogen receptors just as do natural estrogen hormones. These experiments have shown that the phytoestrogens can act similar to, but are much weaker than, the natural estrogens in a woman’s body. Based on this similarity, with weak activity, the following hypothesis has been generated regarding the potential health benefits of phytoestrogens in pre- and post-menopausal women. For pre-menopausal women, at a time in the life cycle when natural estrogen levels in the body are relatively high, phytoestrogens compete with estrogen for estrogen receptors, thereby blocking the effect of the natural hormone (anti-estrogenic effect). For post-menopausal women (with dramatically lower estrogen levels), there is so little natural estrogen available in the body that even the weakly estrogenic phytoestrogens provide a bit of an estrogenic boost.

Basically if the estrogen is too low they will raise it and if it is too high they will work at lowering it and this will occur in men and women as it should pertain to each sex. Men do produce estrogen but it is much lower levels than women produce and men will not suddenly have high estrogen levels if they consume phytoestrogens. It doesn't work like that. The phytoestrogens will simply balance their estrogen levels to how they are supposed to be. So if their estrogen levels are too low for them personally, or too high it will balance them. As I said they are in flax also and flax oil.



http://www.50plus.org/Libraryitems/1...oestrogens.htm

[Valerie]

Phytoestrogens are adaptogens. This is their main mechanism of action. They can be beneficial when estrogen levels are either increased or decreased. When phytoestrogens are metabolized, they bind on the same cellular sites as do estrogens. Phytoestrogens are considered to be weak estrogenic compounds. When a phytoestrogen has attached itself to an estrogen receptor, this prevents estrogen from exerting its effects. On average, phytoestrogens have about two percent of the strength of estrogens. Therefore, when estrogen levels are high, substituting a phytoestrogen for an estrogen means that there will be much less estrogenic activity at a given binding site. Conversely, if estrogen levels are low and estrogen-binding sites are empty, filling them with phytoestrogens that contain two percent estrogen activity will result in a total increase in systemic estrogenic effect.


http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/18/21/03.html

These are just a few references to read through that cover the effcts of phytoestrogens basically. I'm sure there's more out there is you look for it.

[Valerie]

Answers

Are antinutrients bad for you?

Some people have expressed concerns about soy foods altering absorption of minerals and other nutrients. Soybeans, like other legumes, have an array of anti-nutrients such as aflotoxins, phytates and tannins which could alter absorption. What does this mean? To understand how nutrients can alter absorption we can take calcium as an example. Normally, when you take in calcium in your diet your body uses a certain amount and the rest is excreted unused. With an anti-nutrient you can have a little bit less of the calcium absorbed and more excreted. Most of these anti-nutrients are inactivated after cooking. Also, the phytate or total anti-nutrient content of soybeans is very small and will not have a significant impact on how well your body uses the nutrients that you take in.


So what does this mean for you? We encourage you to continue including soymilk in your diet and to take a multivitamin-mineral supplement. Both of these habits will help your body.

It's interesting to note that phytates are removed when the soy product is processed or cooked for a certain length of time, so phytates would be quite low in that case. Soy milk is made with soy flour in fact and is just mixed with water and boiled and most phytates are removed in the processing

What are saponins?

Saponins are a class of phytochemicals, which are naturally occurring plant chemicals, that may have potent biological activity in the body. There are fifteen classes of phytochemical, isoflavones, which are very concentrated in the soybean, being one of them. Saponins, found in plants, particularly soybeans, are another class.


Saponins were actually at one time thought to be harmful. However, research has shown that saponins from soybeans, various plants, flowers and trees may prevent cancer. Saponins are antioxidants; they can protect us from the damaging effects of free radicals. Researchers have found that saponins can prevent the mutations that can lead to cancer and may inhibit colon cancer. Interestingly, those populations who have a greater concentration of saponins in their diet also have a lower rate of colon cancer.

Saponins can also be healthy for the heart. Saponins are thought to lower cholesterol either by blocking cholesterol absorption or by causing more cholesterol to be excreted from the body.

What is lecithin?

There are health benefits attributed to soy lecithin if consumed at optimal levels.


Lecithin is extracted from soybean oil and used in food manufacturing as an emulsifier in products that are high in fats and oils. Emulsifiers act like a bridge between water and fats, keeping the two components mixed together in foods.

Scientists have been interested in the effect of lecithin on cholesterol for many years. In the 1950's, Dr. Lister Morrison gave 36 grams of soy lecithin to subjects who had previously been on a low-fat diet. He found that cholesterol levels were reduced by 30% in those individuals supplemented with lecithin. A second study showed that adding 6 grams of lecithin to a low-fat, low-cholesterol diet lowered LDL (the so-called "bad") and increased HDL (the so-called "good") cholesterol by 15% more than just the diet alone.

The average American eats only 3 grams of lecithin a day. In foods alone it would be almost impossible to obtain this level of lecithin. So lecithin, even if it does work, is probably not the most practical way to lower cholesterol.

All three found in soy beans

[Valerie]

As men age not only do their testosterone levels decline but their estrogen levels have a tendency to increase and this is where they start to gain weight more easily. This happens because as you age you produce higher levels of aromatase and this in turn is what leads to the conversion of higher estrogen which is converted from testosterone. As estradiol and estrone levels increase in older men, so do the levels of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), a protein that binds to testosterone. This increase in SHBG further reduces the amount of testosterone freely available to work in the cells.

Bearing this in mind, phytoestrogens can in fact act as an estrogen blocker as they bind to the estrogen receptors and block estrogen uptake if anything. That is precisely how phytoestrogens help to reduce problems with prostate and also in women the risk of breast cancer. They also ease menopause symptoms because at that time most menopausal women suffer estrogen dominance problems--as men also do as they age in the above way. That's my understanding of how phytoestrogens work.

Now in women whose estrogen levels are too low (or men even) phytoestrogens will have the opposite effect completely and boost flagging levels.

[PHIL DONAHUE]

honestly men 50 and older have higher estrogen levels than there wives, this is why around this time prostrate problems and puffy droopy man teets start . soy i think does not have the amino profile that say beef has. a man could add soy to there protein intake but i would not suggest the bulk of it should come from soy yes its heart healthy but one scoop a day should be ok. the bulk of protein should come from diet chicken,fish etc. smoking increases test levels keeps one leaner but i do not promote it but it also increases blood pressure and body temp. i still feel soy is great for women but should be the last supplement on a mans list .

[F071557]

Originally posted by PHIL DONAHUE
honestly men 50 and older have higher estrogen levels than there wives, this is why around this time prostrate problems and puffy droopy man teets start . soy i think does not have the amino profile that say beef has. a man could add soy to there protein intake but i would not suggest the bulk of it should come from soy yes its heart healthy but one scoop a day should be ok. the bulk of protein should come from diet chicken,fish etc. smoking increases test levels keeps one leaner but i do not promote it but it also increases blood pressure and body temp. i still feel soy is great for women but should be the last supplement on a mans list .

fitnessman
Moderator

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: Mastering Nutrition
Posts: 2683
Soy
http://www.mercola.com/2001/jun/13/soy_formula.htm
How Safe is Soy Infant Formula?

I am anti soy and will remain so.


__________________
I am the Alpha and the Fatty Omega 3

Hey, I was Keto....When Keto wasnt cool!

Ditto all the way. It also interferes with thyroid hormones.

Soy is altogether evil.

[fitnessman]

I think we had a nice debate about this in the ramble thread.

P.S. I knew this thread would get you fired up Val

[Valerie]

It's not so much that it get's me fired up. It's just I feel a lot of you are closing your mind's to it at the mention of estrogen incorrectly (almost running in the opposite direction holding your loins in guarded pose lol--incorrectly of course--almost like it's a threat to your manhood) and you see I think that is a real pity because I personally feel it would sort half the blokes estrogen problems out that need it.

As for taking in more meat, one has to remember that a highly purine diet is quite acidic anyway and de oxygenates blood. It doesn't oxygenate it which is precisely what you need as you age IMO. Also, along with higher meat intake comes higher saturated fat intake and higher LDL cholesterol so you cannot win in that direction. You don't need a high protein diet to build muscles guys. How do you suppose a bull get's such huge muscular frame? It only eats grass. So I'd have to disagree with the higher meat intake entirely.

Also, I don't think you could really speculate about what soy does to thydroid and then just say "It's evil," w/o backing that statement up either. Exactly what are you implying it does where thydroid is concerned, that a high protein/high fat low carb diet doesnt effect (i.e. hypothydroidism) anyway? Sometimes we get things quite confused and if anything, and I'm setting you guys up for a proper debate here because none of you IMO have stepped forth and really addressed the plus's that I brought up. It's a lot more complex than what is done to soy in the manufacturing process guys, and they don't manufacture it in aluminium vats everywhere, so how can you claim that this is a world wide problem anyway. It's all in the processing and if that's not right, it's not because of the humble soy bean--it's what you are doing to it that's making it unhealthy. Other than that when it's processed correctly, there are far more health benefits than there are problems. In fact most of the afore mentioned problems disappear.

[F071557]

Originally posted by Valerie
How do you suppose a bull get's such huge muscular frame? It only eats grass. So I'd have to disagree with the higher meat intake entirely.

Also, I don't think you could really speculate about what soy does to thydroid and then just say "It's evil," w/o backing that statement up either. Exactly what are you implying it does where thydroid is concerned, that a high protein/high fat low carb diet doesnt effect (i.e. hypothydroidism) anyway?

You cannot compare ungulates to omnivores. There is absolutely no discussion about how bulls or elephants or gorillas get so big eating a vegetarian diet. Their digestion is entirely different from humans.

It's documented that soy interferes with thyroid hormones, either binding with them, or inhibiting production. I don'tremember which. But the documentation is available, as well as the anecdotal evidence of thyroid patients who improve greatly when they give up soy.

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soysdownsides/

[Valerie]

Originally posted by F071557
You cannot compare ungulates to omnivores. There is absolutely no discussion about how bulls or elephants or gorillas get so big eating a vegetarian diet. Their digestion is entirely different from humans.

They are just a different species but basically they are the same. We are in fact (or so they claim) descended from apes etc so I think that it is useless to brush off our resemblance to animals as we evolved differently from them, but basically when it comes to muscle , flesh and bone, we are no different.

Cows eat grass and that's where they get their calcium from. The human race is about the only race drinking cows milk (which was not really manufactured for human consumption) as ar as I can see. No one said here that we were not meant to eat meat, but I don't think we were mean to eat such high levels of it for one minute or such unreal amounts as one would on aan atkins diet for example. For one they didn't have it so freely available back then and two it's an unrealistic diet because whether we like it or not, it raises LDL cholesterol and thus susceptibility heart disease and also cancer.

We are able to survive on any macronutrient available for a certain period of time and in an emergency but not for too long....it helps if you get a balanced diet when it's available and thats exactly what out ancestors did and that's so that we can get the needed broad range of vitamins that we need for various bodily functions. They did not eat meat 24/7 because it was simply not available in the quantity needed to do that and had they relied upon such they would have become as extint as the dinosaurs. They ate what was available and they ate a variety. Their diet consisted in fact of higher carb ratio to protein and fat if anything.

My point here was that to build muscle one does not need a high protein intake and you can build muscle with a high carb diet as long as it is higher in the grain type of carbs which incidentally also contain EFA's and if one needs to lose weight switch the ratio to more in favor of fresh fruits and vegies and less grain type carbs. Carbohydrate is in fact utilised by the body a hell of a lot faster than protein or fat is and and as important for developing muscle growth and repair and also for quality workouts without fatigue in most people. With the exception of blood type o people I'd say your pretty much better off with less protein derived from eat source in your diet due to saturated fat issues anyway.

Going back to the soy issue, I have followed many links, and most coming up with the same old stuff about thydroid, but it is like anything....you'd have to consume it in unreal and stupid proportions to gain any detrimental effect and most people simply don't consume enough of it anyway. It's the same with eating too much of anything though isn't it? It's all about balance. We had the Pritikin type diet back in the 80's where they recommended very high carb and virtually no fat and then the Atkins extremes where they recommended high fat and protein and extremely low carbs and they are both fad diets IMO. When you settle for something somewhere inbetween, THAT is when you are doing yourself a favor really because your covering all bases and also making sure you don't expose yourself to the various side-effects caused by either diet that goes to stupid extremes.

[Valerie]

I guess in saying a bull eats grass and he has a large muscular frame, no matter what his digestive system is like, he has done it merely eating grass so it's obviously a fallacy that we NEED meat to gain muscle IMO. For all we know grass may have everything we all need. lol. It's just I guess it don't taste very nice. But you do see folks pushing greens and wheat grass and everything like that and it is supposedly packed with a wide range of nutrients so go figure.

[Valerie]

Apart from the obvious one with low carb diets, that most of the weight loss is water based and not fat based in the beginning, you always see folks piling the weight back on when they're done with them or cycle between those and high carb/low fat. To my mind your far better off cutting on moderate protein/moderate carb and minimum fat needed or building mass that way.


Low carb diets are lacking in fiber. Every plant-based food has some fiber. All animal products have no fiber. A lack of fiber increases your risk for cancers of the digestive track (because transit time is lengthened) and cardiovascular disease (because of fibers effect on fat and cholesterol). It also puts you at a higher risk for constipation and other bowel disorders.

Low carb diets lack sufficient quantities of the the many nutrients / phytonutrients / antioxidants found in fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains, necessary for health and aiding in prevention of cancer and heart disease. In fact, you need these nutrients even more so when you're consuming too much fat as is often the case on a low carb high protein diet.

Americans already consume more than twice the amount of protein needed. Add to that a high protein diet and you have far too much protein consumption. By the way, most people don't realize that all fruits, all vegetables, all whole grains, and all legumes also contain protein. Animal products contain larger quantities of protein, but that may not be a good thing.

Excess dietary protein puts you at a higher risk for many health problems: gout (painful joints from high purine foods which are usually high protein foods), kidney disease, kidney stones, osteoporosis (excess dietary protein causes leeching of calcium from the bones). By the way, countries with lower, healthier intakes of protein also have a decreased incidence of osteoporosis.

[PHIL DONAHUE]

Originally posted by Valerie
It's not so much that it get's me fired up. How do you suppose a bull get's such huge muscular frame? It only eats grass. So I'd have to disagree with the higher meat intake entirely.

.

[ she does have a point ]actually the closet cousin is the chimpanzee. im eating grass its cheaper actually free, no more john deere getting all the grass. king nebucchadnezzar eat grass 7 years his hair grew as long as a hawks wingspan. the neighbors will have me committed but the yard will look good. i do feel a diet should be a mix of meat and potatoes.

[Steelhand]

Glad to stir the pot. There are many sides to this issue. Studies are inconclusive, to say the least.

Risk is one thing we all assess on everything we ingest into our bodies. Note the Copenhagen comment. ( I inhale my versions of the evil tobacco weed.)

You'll find people who will argue about soy, and yet shoot steriods of unknown origin into their butts.

Again, as in strength training programs, diet, cardio, there are areas that we will disagree. I hope we all agree: the more open-minded discussion, the more we all learn.

[F071557]

Originally posted by Valerie
They are just a different species but basically they are the same. We are in fact (or so they claim) descended from apes etc so I think that it is useless to brush off our resemblance to animals as we evolved differently from them, but basically when it comes to muscle , flesh and bone, we are no different.

Different but the same? No, completely different. Cattle have four-chambered stomachs for partially processing vegetation, then regurgitating it, re-chewing it (chewing their cud), swallowing and reprocessing it. This is all to extract as much nutrition as possible from it. We cannot do that. Moreover, they graze all day. So do elephants, so do all herbivores. They have to because what they eat is so poor in nutrition.

We are not descended from apes, but related to them. Nor did we evolve from other animals. That's too simplistic. A difference in our digestive systems is that the great apes (gorillas, chimps) have huge guts in relation to ours. They digest their food much, much longer than we do.

I'm sorry Valerie, but your reasoning doesn't stand up. It's true that humans can exist on a vegetarian diet, but not necessarily thrive on one. We are omnivores, and have the dentition for it.

[Valerie]

Getting back on topic and to sum it up for people I've written a small article of my views on soy and how it can help us as we age:

I thought that I'd just post and clear up a misunderstanding that is occoring with soy for folks at the moment where estrogen is concerned.

There have been posts about it raising estrogen levels in men above the level that they should be. There have been posts pointing to it as causing problems with thydroid.

As we age, and as estrogen levels elevate in both men and women a side effect of such is the thydroid slowing down or a leaning towards hypothydroidism as well as the extra layer around the middle. Consequently our metabolisms slow some and that's what makes us prone to easily gaining weight as we do. Mass declines due to the drop off in testosterone. Now we could raise testosterone by taking supplements but of course no one really knows what side effects are involved in doing so. The only other option is to try to redress the balance that is caused for both men and women when estrogen levels rise and that is to make sure that the progesterone levels are boosted some and brought more into line with where the estrogen levels are at.

Both men and women produce estrogen and progesterone, but as we age and the estrogen levels raise, the progesterone levels drop along with the testosterone levels and this is what causes the many problems that we suffer. Now your all asking how can we boost progesterone levels, or better still how can we lower the estrogen levels so that they are more in line with what the progesterone and test levels are so that we all don't suffer from this estrogen dominance stuff?

This is where a diet rich in phytoestrogens comes to the rescue. There are a number of things you can do to make the transition to old age a better one. No 1 problem is that we need to boost testosterone and dhea levels again, but we need to do that naturally....yes I know ya'll wanna just take a pill but doing it the correct way is so much better for you. We can increase those test levels simply by building mass and eating well as we all know. To help things along their way a little we can cut saturated fat to as low as possible and start to eat more of the the healthy fats which contain lignans and phytoestrogens and which contribute to the making of such hormones also. In increasing the healthy fats we can also increase other supplements that can raise the progesterone levels and the test levels such as vitex or tribulus which stimulate the making of such hormones, but do not stimulate the body to make too much because they work off the positive/negative feedbacks in the body.

On top of this, we need to take care of any excess estrogens and of course soy and flax help there because in a climate where the estrogen to test ratio is high, phytoestrogens will go to work to reduce the ratio of estrogen to test. In a climate where the test to estrogen ratio is high and thereby pre disposing us to urinary tract problems and prostate problems, such phytoestrogens will boost the small levels of estrogen that we DO have and bring them more into a favorable ratio also.

Someone mentioned the effects of soy on thydroid. As we know, from the above the thydroid naturally slows down and the thyroxine levels are less unless you have a thydroid problem to the opposite such as a goitre etc or hyperthydroidism. (Such people in the latter group would not want to touch soy. ) However, in most people these hormones drop off. Now if your not that clued up with the thydroid, when we are hyperthydroid our body processes speed up and when we are hypothydroid, the bodily processes slow donw. As the thydroid slows in age (hypothydroidism) also slows down our body's ability to process carbohydrates and our cell's ability to absorb blood sugar. Hence, the carbohydrates we could eat pre-thyroid problems now are too much for our systems to handle. So excess carbohydrates equals excess insulin equals excess weight. Paunch!

What's the one food or beverage that reverses this in a natural way? Soy of course. For instance, as we try to lose fat we also lose mass and the metabolism may 'fight back' and slow down. A study has found that consuming 25 to 50g of soy protein daily may help to stop the thyroid from slowing down. Soy protein is high in iron, so it may reduce the threat of 'sports anemia.'

It may lower the calcium uptake, but in increasing our body mass and raising the hormones dhea and testosterone in the process we increase our bone mass anyway. Well that's my two cents worth. I think really where soy is concerned it is all about the way you look at some of the "so called side effects" they speak about and whether they are useful to you or whether they are going to really go against what your trying to effect in your body.

[Valerie]

and i guess like any drug we take to correct a thydroid problem, there are known side effects. If you can do it with a food source that is also doubling as a protein source and a replacement for the dreaded lactose and hormone loaded cows milk, then you will have cracked it. Soy has side effects, but it's just for some folks those side effects are pleasant ones and take their body's hormone mechanisms in the right direction they need to be going.

[Valerie]

Originally posted by F071557
Different but the same? No, completely different. Cattle have four-chambered stomachs for partially processing vegetation, then regurgitating it, re-chewing it (chewing their cud), swallowing and reprocessing it. This is all to extract as much nutrition as possible from it. We cannot do that. Moreover, they graze all day. So do elephants, so do all herbivores. They have to because what they eat is so poor in nutrition.

We are not descended from apes, but related to them. Nor did we evolve from other animals. That's too simplistic. A difference in our digestive systems is that the great apes (gorillas, chimps) have huge guts in relation to ours. They digest their food much, much longer than we do.

I'm sorry Valerie, but your reasoning doesn't stand up. It's true that humans can exist on a vegetarian diet, but not necessarily thrive on one. We are omnivores, and have the dentition for it.

I guess what I am trying to point out to you after your statement that we need to increase meat in the diet is that protein does not have to come from meat. Legumes, nuts and all vegetables contain protein as do grains as well as carbs. You just don't need to eat tons of meat for protein and if you do, it's good to get the poultry or fish kind as they are lower in saturated fats anyway and fish only has EFA's. A lot of folks eat far too much red meat and it's quite high in saturated fat. My point is that muscle growth CAN come from vegetable source and we need carbs for growth as much as we need protein, but all too often you see people giving up carbs---good clean carbs in pursuit of fad diets thinking they will gain mass. Soy is just a legume and is a protein/carb source and also as I said has many benefits to both sexes and also for body builders hormone wise, who more than anything need it to balance any excess estrogens certainly if they are juicing or taking supplements to raise testosterone, because in raising test in most cases you raise estrogen levels anyway.

The reason we don't have as many stomachs as a cow is because we process food much better than a cow does, and no, grass alone would not suffice though basically everything that decays goes into the soil and back to the earth from wence it came so grass has to be full of everything IMO...lol! It doesnt for one minute detract from my argument, it's just that we process food faster than a cow all in one go. The fact remains here that we don't NEED to eat meat to get adequate protein in our diet as there is a healthy level of protein in plants and legumes and nuts etc, and also we can eat fish which is healthier because it has EFA's and not saturated fat in it. Plants have it all---carbs, protein, vitamins THE LOT. Meat if anything slows the digestive process down for may people and causes a lot of problem in the gut. The ratio of protein to carb you get is paramount to muscle recovery and growth but the answer does not lie in the high fat low carb diet or the opposite for that matter. Many type Os would be okay with an increased meat diet, but it would be in fact harmful in a lot of people with other blood types. In fact they recommend that you keep red meat to a minimum. To get your protein primarily from legumes, nuts and fish and some poultry 2-3 times a week. It's far healthier for you.

[motorhall]

Amazing what you can find with a google search.
http://www.muscleblitz.com/soy_protein.htm

For myself, I would never want to rely on soy, legumes, grains, and vegetables as my primary protein sources, but I have added frozen edamame soybeans to my diet recently just to break up the monotony of eating the same crap over and over.

Considering the junk that many people consume, especially when they rationalize their cheat meals and drunken binges, I'd say that soy is the least of their problems. I will include myself in that group.

A tempest in a teapot.

[Valerie]

lol motorhall. You are SO right!

My protein sources come from Salmon, sardines, and white fish or the occasional chicken breast. The rest come from four bean mixes mixed with my salads, yoghurt, soy milk and whey protein isolate and nuts. I think if your going to step your protein up, it's good to get some legumes in as they deliver your carbs also along with the protein. Also very filling and easier to digest if your digestion is a tad slow. I rarely eat red meat anyhow. If I do it is something specific like chilli con carne or spagehetti bolognese and I use lean mince beef.

[fitnessman]

I have asked some of these questions at the university. The nutrition dept head is going to give me his overall opinion in a few days.

He like I has not really researched in a few years.

I will post his opinion as well.

*Note when I was in class he rarely agreed with me, which is why I picked him.