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  1. #1
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    Diindolylmethane(DIM)?

    Hey guys, I believe I have high estrogen for a male and this is causing my test to be low so I read about a supplement, DIM, that helps lower estrogen levels to where they are supposed to be and which in turn increases test to where it's supposed to be. My question is should one be taking the dose all at once or take half the dose in the morning and the other half later in the day or something? Or does it not matter when one takes it?

    Also would taking Chrysin be helpful here too, or would DIM do the job on its own? Thanks
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    Hey guys, I believe I have high estrogen for a male and this is causing my test to be low so I read about a supplement, DIM, that helps lower estrogen levels to where they are supposed to be and which in turn increases test to where it's supposed to be. My question is should one be taking the dose all at once or take half the dose in the morning and the other half later in the day or something? Or does it not matter when one takes it?

    Also would taking Chrysin be helpful here too, or would DIM do the job on its own? Thanks
    No, DIM helps decrease "bad" estrogens and raise "good" estrogens...a better estrogen ratio. Chrysin is somewhat of an aromatase inhibitor, but I think you would just be better off using a real AI.
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  3. #3
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    Originally Posted by smj5351 View Post
    No, DIM helps decrease "bad" estrogens and raise "good" estrogens...a better estrogen ratio. Chrysin is somewhat of an aromatase inhibitor, but I think you would just be better off using a real AI.
    DIM decreases bad estrogens and raise good estrogens...thats good right, what effect would that have on the body?

    Chrysin is somewhat of an aromatase inhibitor, which means it justs slows down or stops the conversion of testosterone into estrogen? That doesnt decrease estrogen at all right? It just increases total test right?

    What exactly is real AI?
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    How could you know you have an high estrogen level when you dont even know what is an AI ?

    I suggest to see a doctor if you think you have a problem not trying to resolve a "possible" problem with supps.

    High estrogen is linked with high testosterone levels
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    DIM decreases bad estrogens and raise good estrogens...thats good right, what effect would that have on the body?

    What exactly is real AI?
    Yes, the effect DIM has is a beneficial one. You can think of it as "normalizing" and "detoxifying". I consider it to be a very useful and healthy nutrient. This here is a great product: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/san/estrodex.html

    A real AI or aromatase inhibitor is chemical (drug) that ihibits the aromatase enzyme in one way or another. Aromatase, in a nutshell, converts sex hormones to estrogen.
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    Originally Posted by Bloute View Post
    How could you know you have an high estrogen level when you dont even know what is an AI ?

    I suggest to see a doctor if you think you have a problem not trying to resolve a "possible" problem with supps.

    High estrogen is linked with high testosterone levels
    AI is aramotase inhibitor...but whats an example of a real one if chrysin isnt a real one
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    AI is aramotase inhibitor...but whats an example of a real one if chrysin isnt a real one
    ATD, letrozole...

    Why dont you see a doctor first ? How can you see you have high estrogen levels without a bloodwork ?
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis View Post
    Yes, the effect DIM has is a beneficial one. You can think of it as "normalizing" and "detoxifying". I consider it to be a very useful and healthy nutrient. This here is a great product: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/san/estrodex.html

    A real AI or aromatase inhibitor is chemical (drug) that ihibits the aromatase enzyme in one way or another. Aromatase, in a nutshell, converts sex hormones to estrogen.
    So DIM is like a normalizing supplement for test and estradiol? So good for people who have an imbalance...What about chrysin? I know it blocks estrogen and increases test. So would DIM be for people who want to normalize their hormones and make sure everything is where it's supposed to be while chrysin would be for people who want to increase their natural test without moving their estrogen levels...pretty much a test booster, correct?

    Originally Posted by Bloute View Post
    ATD, letrozole...

    Why dont you see a doctor first ? How can you see you have high estrogen levels without a bloodwork ?
    I'm getting bloodwork done, I just want to understand alittle more because I was reading about it and then stumbled on something and wanted to ask about it.
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    So DIM is like a normalizing supplement for test and estradiol? So good for people who have an imbalance...What about chrysin? I know it blocks estrogen and increases test. So would DIM be for people who want to normalize their hormones and make sure everything is where it's supposed to be while chrysin would be for people who want to increase their natural test without moving their estrogen levels...pretty much a test booster, correct?
    DIM is good for everyone. It cleans your body of the "bad" estrogen.

    And please, just give up on the chrysin, man.
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    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis View Post
    DIM is good for everyone. It cleans your body of the "bad" estrogen.

    And please, just give up on the chrysin, man.
    This bad estrogen...could that cause gyno?

    And why should I give up on the chrysin? Whats wrong with it?
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    This bad estrogen...could that cause gyno?

    And why should I give up on the chrysin? Whats wrong with it?

    It's an old-school supplement that has no merit. That's what's wrong with it.
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    This bad estrogen...could that cause gyno?

    And why should I give up on the chrysin? Whats wrong with it?
    Did you amount your entire post count of 4600 by asking dumb ass questions?
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    What did your doctor tell you about your bloodwork ?

    Please go on a bodybuilding board and ask for a treatment !
    I do not work for any supplement company, I am on bb.com to share feedback on supplements and to try to help people with the little knowledge I have. **Please note this**
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    Originally Posted by cakedonkey View Post
    It's an old-school supplement that has no merit. That's what's wrong with it.
    Oh ok...guess I'll just take your word for it.

    Originally Posted by Aeternitatis View Post
    Did you amount your entire post count of 4600 by asking dumb ass questions?
    LOL Wow, no. Is that really a dumb question tho?
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    Originally Posted by Bloute View Post
    What did your doctor tell you about your bloodwork ?

    Please go on a bodybuilding board and ask for a treatment !
    I didnt get it yet...I just wanted to know for my knowledge
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    I didnt get it yet...I just wanted to know for my knowledge
    So how do you know your estrogen level is too high ? You cry and use makeup
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    Originally Posted by Bloute View Post
    So how do you know your estrogen level is too high ? You cry and use makeup
    lol...I've been looking up alot of symptoms of low test and high estrogen and I have alot of them, for some time now. It would explain alot of my problems.
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    lol...I've been looking up alot of symptoms of low test and high estrogen and I have alot of them, for some time now. It would explain alot of my problems.
    Careful, it's easy to convince yourself of things if you really want to. Get your results and go from there. Good luck.
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    Hey guys, I believe I have high estrogen for a male and this is causing my test to be low so I read about a supplement, DIM, that helps lower estrogen levels to where they are supposed to be and which in turn increases test to where it's supposed to be. My question is should one be taking the dose all at once or take half the dose in the morning and the other half later in the day or something? Or does it not matter when one takes it?

    Also would taking Chrysin be helpful here too, or would DIM do the job on its own? Thanks
    You >believe< you have high estrogen? What are you basing this on?

    See a doctor if this is the case.
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    DIM is very commonly used among HRT/TRT patients to lower estrogens. You should take TMG with it - it's cheap, and u can buy it on bb.com under the "NOW" brand.

    Start with 1x DIM (enzymatic therapy is a quality one, avail on bb.com) and 1000mg TMG (NOW brand) a day.

    Also, 2+ dims a day can give an upset stomach.
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    Question

    How much DIM should a man take per day? 100,200, or 400 mgs. per day?
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    I've used 100 mg per day. Recently I've discontinued it's use however while I track down a potential concern. It appears that DIM not only assists in estrogen metabolism but it also acts as an anti-adrogen.

    http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/278/23/21136

    Excerpt: "In conclusion, our study establishes DIM as a pure androgen antagonist that blocks expression of androgen-responsive genes and inhibits AR nuclear translocation and nuclear foci formation. The discovery of DIM as the first pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants establishes this substance as a new class of hormonally active agents with potential both as environmental androgen disrupters and as prostate tumor preventive and therapeutic agents. "

    As an androgen antagonist, it will block the effect of testosterone and it's metabolites(eg; DHT) on androgen receptors. This will benefit those with prostate cancer because prostate cancer posseses adrogen receptors which aid a tumor to grow. However, DIM could also act on other androgen receptors throughout the body, thereby blocking the benefits of androgens. This concerns me and I am continuing to research this and am attempting to contact a research out in Oregon for more clarification.
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    It's antiandrogen effects may also be beneficials for hair loss as well. I believe it's recommended for men to take 300 to 400 mg a day to receive DIM benefits.
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    Originally Posted by RavensFan2k3 View Post
    lol...I've been looking up alot of symptoms of low test and high estrogen and I have alot of them, for some time now. It would explain alot of my problems.
    ...and those same symptoms can be caused by about a bazillion other things too. Go to Doctor, get all your bloodwork done, make sure he checks total and free hormone levels, not just total. No sense in guessing at it until you know what's up...unless...did you get gyno without using a hormonal supplement or drug?
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    Originally Posted by FromNYC View Post
    It's antiandrogen effects may also be beneficials for hair loss as well. I believe it's recommended for men to take 300 to 400 mg a day to receive DIM benefits.
    That would make sense in that it blocks DHT at the AR (receptor). Still I'm concerned that it will also block the anabolic effects of androgens. I'm continuing to search for studies that address that concern but there appears to be nothing "on point". However, the studies on other antiandrogens in general point to potential adverse effects. Anyway, I'm still trying to sort this out.

    BTW: my thread in the science section that I cited got locked for some reason. So perhaps my logic is flawed. I'm no scientist just a motorhead.... LOL
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    Originally Posted by wild1poet2 View Post
    That would make sense in that it blocks DHT at the AR (receptor). Still I'm concerned that it will also block the anabolic effects of androgens. I'm continuing to search for studies that address that concern but there appears to be nothing "on point". However, the studies on other antiandrogens in general point to potential adverse effects. Anyway, I'm still trying to sort this out.

    BTW: my thread in the science section that I cited got locked for some reason. So perhaps my logic is flawed. I'm no scientist just a motorhead.... LOL
    Not sure why your thread was closed. Here is a good post by dinoiii.

    Originally Posted by dinoiii from another board
    DIM vs. I3C?

    --> DIM has a VERY poor bioavailability to it! Let's look at some other pertinents:

    DIM studies (rats and in vitro/test tube): < 50 (far too few INDEPENDENT)
    I3C studies (MANY on HUMAN females but human data is prevalent): > 250 (MORE independent)

    DIM is a condensation product and likely NOT the one pertinent to estrogenic manipluation, which I will offer better retort to in next month's DS Intelligent Design Magazine (in fairness to them to offer new material, I will hold on the sciency background to it, BUT it is something you won't want to miss).

    As far as sinner's comments about I3C being anti-androgenic. First, MANY OTC supplements (6-oxo and ATD included) harbor anti-androgenic effects, but they are inherently different. The difference between those OTC touted AIs is that they also harbor PRO-estrogenic effects, I3C does NOT!!! I3C seconds as an estrogen-channeling agent and has a LOT of support.

    Let's take a look at saw palmeto (which too is anti-androgenic)...the higher androgenic potential of the 5-alpha reduced DHT dictates relative androgenicity, but this does NOT happen to a level that you should be concerned with I3C.

    And it doesn't stop there, many herbals define anti-androgenic more than is let on by ads, the question becomes what is the relative rationale of such effects. Think of it this way: If the estrogen-channeling plays a dictating effect, the potential of androgen receptors will decrease (relatively) and this is what would dictate such effects. Sometimes, we have to choose the less of two evils, but the question then becomes...is it PRO-androgenicity we are aiming for OR PRO-anabolic effects? I think the answer is typically obvious and when you get any kind of anti-estrogen/estrogen-channeling effect, the T:E ratio will dictate, especially at certain times (PCT included).

    I3C can and should be run at an average of 400mg BUT this depends upon body composition (of which I have no idea what yours is so this value will potentially vary). You can typically ramp down through PCT, however with an 8-week cycle with shut down imminent, the ramping should NOT take place before about week 4 or 5 of a PCT that should stretch a MINIMUM of 8 weeks.

    As for the "instability" - please don't misinterpret this...this dictates all of the essential metabolites when confronted by stomach acids rather than issues and this has been WELL-SUPPORTED IN STUDIES. The conversion limiting factors, I will define in the article out in less than a month (so I ask that we hold off on that, but I am hoping your conscience will rest to some degree in the mean time).

    About your cycle...there is so many UNdefined paramters here like body composition, cycle experience, diet/training, et al. for me to offer guesstimates about your cycle dosages, etc at this time. You could offer them and I will comment further. Most actually don't get much out of BOLD unless it is dosed as high as 800-1200mg actually in the unmethylated variety, BUT do NOT read me incorrectly, this is HIGHLY dependent upon body weight, etc... SO no I am NOT recommending this at this time until I learn more about you.

    That's all I have time for now, but will be back later today with more as time permits.


    D_
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    Thanks Fitnecise, I hadn't seen that post. I have to recharge before I can rep you.
    I have run across material which discuss I3C being less safe than DIM which is why DIM tends to be preferred. Not sure about bioavailability. It would be great if DIM was a selective androgen antagonist say blocking only receptors on tumors or hair follicles. It would seem that even if you had a healthy level of testosterone the DIM or any other antiandrogen would block it's effects.
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    Originally Posted by wild1poet2 View Post
    I have run across material which discuss I3C being less safe than DIM which is why DIM tends to be preferred.

    THIS IS NOT TRUE!

    What I anticipate has happened is the material you have read is VERY MUCH SO influenced by vested-interest groups involved with DIM products.

    DIM is much cheaper from a supply standpoint, so vying for its placement makes sense from the supplement company side of the coin, NOT REALITY.


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    Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    THIS IS NOT TRUE!

    What I anticipate has happened is the material you have read is VERY MUCH SO influenced by vested-interest groups involved with DIM products.

    DIM is much cheaper from a supply standpoint, so vying for its placement makes sense from the supplement company side of the coin, NOT REALITY.

    D_
    this may be, but at the moment it is a moot point for me. The issue I am more concerned with is the fact that a study has found DIM to be an anti androgen and so I've discontinued it's use.

    In the study I cited above they state; "Cyproterone acetate and Casodex, two well known antiandrogens, were used as positive controls. DIM and Casodex exhibited similar binding affinity for the AR. " That's enough to give me pause. DIM similar to a prescription anti androgen is not something that is readily disclosed in ads. I might reconsider if further studies shed additional light on this but meanwhile I'm avoiding DIM.
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    Imo

    I3C > DIM

    And not just because dinoii said it and he knows his ****.
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