Why supplements should almost never be taken...

[BreakdownHit]

I posted this in a sticky thread above, but I think this needs its own thread, so I'll repost it--


Alright listen up everyone...

It's been a long time since I've posted on these boards, I usually just check in once in a while for ideas for my workouts, but I feel like I need to enlighten all of you on supplements.

When I first started lifting I was supplement crazy. I worked at GNC, so I could basically get and use whatever I wanted. Whey protein? I've tried many brands. Creatine? Been there, done that. Amino acids? Yup. Multi-Vitamins? You betcha. You name it, I've taken it (asides from the illegal stuff obviously...). For a while, I swore by these supplements. In fact, I felt bad for people that didn't take them and I actively encouraged taking them. My workouts just seemed so much more intense, my gains seemed so much better, and my muscles seemed so much harder. Eventually I had to quit my job at GNC and go off to college. Living on a budget and not having any income meant that using supplements would have to come to an end. However, I continued lifting most days and focusing on my health. You know what I noticed at the end of the day? Without supplements, my workouts were just as intense as they always were, my gains were just as good as they've always been, and my muscles were as hard as they've ever been. You know what I changed? Other than taking supplements, absolutely nothing.

From taking classes and doing research on my own (I'm a biology major, med-school bound) I've come to many realizations. Probably the most important is that ALL, I repeat, ALL sports supplements are nothing more than expensive placebos. I will never, EVER, pay another dollar for sports supplements (other than Gatorade maybe), and I'll explain why, supplement by supplement.

1.) Protein Powders
If you are serious about weightlifting, you should also be serious about eating a healthy diet. If you eat a healthy diet, you are already eating enough protein!!! It is a PROVEN FACT that protein from supplements are less completely digested than protein from foods, and when people substitute these protein supplements for food, it can be downright dangerous. It's true that athletes need more protein than the average person, but it is not an extreme amount more, which is pretty much what everyone on this website believes. There is EVIDENCE that 1-1.5 grams of protein per KILOGRAM (NOT POUND) of body weight can help with physical activity (not building your muscles).

My advice: Stay away from protein powders. If you eat a healthy diet, they are simply unnecessary. In the world of nutrition, more does not equal better!!! If you feel that you need more protein, eat more meat, not expensive powders.

2.) Amino Acids
A book I have best explains these:
"Advertisers point to research that identifies the branched chain amino acids as the main ones used as fuel by exercising muscles. What the ads leave out is that compared to glucose and fatty acids, branched-chain amino acids provide very little fuel and that ordinary foods provide them in abundance anyway. Large doses of branched-chain amino acids can raise plasma ammonia concentrations, which can be toxic to the brain. Branched-chain amino acids supplements are neither efective nor safe and are not recommended."

My advice: Stay away from amino acids. Your body is not built to take them in such concentrations and they can actually be harmful to your health. Again, eat more meat and eat the pyramid.

3.)Creatine
Here's a quick biology lesson. When you're going through athletic activity, your body goes through different phases to make energy. The first phase is anaerobic, which requires no oxygen. This whole process lasts for about 2-3 minutes. After that, your body makes energy for itself in an aerobic way, requiring oxygen. This is where the majority of your energy for workouts comes from. Where does creatine factor into this? Well, creatine is the first step on the ladder. Your body uses creatine to create ATP for approximately 2-3 seconds. Right after that, your body uses glucose and pyruvate to create ATP. Then after about 3 minutes comes that aerobic process. This uses glucose, amino acids, and fatty acids to create ATP. What am I trying to say? Well, the point I'm trying to make is that creatine is not a very big factor in creating ATP in your body. Your body makes creatine and you eat in meats. From this, you usually have around 1 gram in your body. The only reason that would merit taking a creatine supplement is if you had a creatine deficiency, and currently there is no creatine deficiencies in the world, so chances are you don't have one. Best case scenario for creatine users? About 2-3 seconds of improvement in their workout, and that's if they're naturally low on creatine, and they'd have to be eating a grossly bad diet for a long period of time to be low on creatine.

My advice: Stay away from creatine. The long term effects of it are completely unknown, and at best it will provide you with 2-3 seconds of improvement.

4.) Multivitamins
Similar to all the other supplements I talked about, if you eat a normal, healthy diet, you get all the vitamins and minerals you need. Many of you think: more vitamins = better health. When in fact its more like: enough vitamins = healthy, more vitamins = wasted, or potentially toxic and unhealthy. The American food supply is one of the most fortified food supplies in the world, therefore you get more than enough vitamins through a normal, healthy diet.

My advice: A multivitamin is probably the least dangerous supplement you can take. If you feel so strongly about it you can probably take it and you won't get any bad side effects, but your body most likely isn't using any of the vitamins and they're ending up in your feces and urine.


The fact of the matter is that the placebo effect in sports supplements is huge. The only supplement that suggests better performance is sports drinks like gatorade, and that's only after about 2 hours of intense physical activity.

Almost all supplements are unnecessary for normal healthy people, like most of you on this board. In fact, many of these supplements can be harmful. The only reason many of them aren't banned is because supplements are considered 'food'. So regulation of supplements would be like regulating potato chips or carrots. The only way a supplement can be taken off the shelves is if it is proven 100% beyond a reasonable doubt, dangerous.

Please everyone, stop taking supplements and just eat a healthy diet. It is incredibly better for you and your body will thank you.

If any of you want me to cover any other supplements, feel free to ask.

[TJ2000]

NO!
I like superpump250, and I will take sp250
you vile man

[BEhave]

well i heard not getting enough fluids while taking creatine can cause gout

[BreakdownHit]

Creatine increases water retention in your muscles, therefore the rest of your body may not be getting enough water, the most important thing for you body. This can cause a huge list of problems.

[GoldBlue]

Just because something does or does not work for someone doesn't me in cant beinfit/ work for someone else.

I mostly agree with your above statement, however I have point of disagreements.

Protein Powder is very useful, it can be used in place of meals for those of use who wish to cut but not have the extra fat/ calories that come with a meal. I consume about 220 grams of protein a day, that would equate to 6 chicken breasts (give or take some), with 10 grams of fat each
thats 60 grams of fat, where as I could get about 50 grams of protein from my shake with little to no fat.

[HeWhoIsMetal]

You mixed up aerobic and anaerobic's order. Your body generally tries aerobic respiration first since it's much more efficient than anaerobic (Don't remember the exact numbers, but I think it's about 15 or 16 times more efficient to transport oxygen to produce ATP).

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but it's one of those things that bothers my nerdy side.

[Skull Crusher Chris]

Creatine increases water retention in your muscles, therefore the rest of your body may not be getting enough water, the most important thing for you body. This can cause a huge list of problems.

It's called drinking more water, all of the supplements say to increase your water intake. If you follow the direction you'll be fine, assuming you have no other problems from before starting it.

[BreakdownHit]

Just because something does or does not work for someone doesn't me in cant beinfit/ work for someone else.

I mostly agree with your above statement, however I have point of disagreements.

Protein Powder is very useful, it can be used in place of meals for those of use who wish to cut but not have the extra fat/ calories that come with a meal. I consume about 220 grams of protein a day, that would equate to 6 chicken breasts (give or take some), with 10 grams of fat each
thats 60 grams of fat, where as I could get about 50 grams of protein from my shake with little to no fat.

The thing is, most of these supplements don't work for ANYONE. It's a physical and biological impossibility. All these supplements do is provide a for a placebo effect. And why on earth would you take that much protein?! I can guarantee, unless you're extremely, your body is not using nearly all that protein! And like I said before, protein powder in place of food is dangerous. If you want to lose weight, either eat less and exercise more, or eat the same and exercise a lot more.

[Baker19]

Food and Water

[OoFaP]

I disagree. Most people use supplements because they can't get everything into their diet. I rely on shakes for about 70 grams of protein throughout the day. Without them I wouldn't get enough. It's not so easy just to eat meat or eat eggs. You have to buy it and cook it which takes time.

[ee33ee]

"There is EVIDENCE that 1-1.5 grams of protein per KILOGRAM (NOT POUND) of body weight"

umm what?"

[dalywm]

wow where are the clinical studies here where are the proven facts? this is based on your opinion and no one cares.

[BreakdownHit]

You mixed up aerobic and anaerobic's order. Your body generally tries aerobic respiration first since it's much more efficient than anaerobic (Don't remember the exact numbers, but I think it's about 15 or 16 times more efficient to transport oxygen to produce ATP).

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but it's one of those things that bothers my nerdy side.

incorrect, when youre doing things like jumping for a rebound in basketball or pushing up a weight in a workout, your body doesnt have enough time to use the oxygen, therefore the anaerobic process comes first. then your body goes to aerobic processes, and once you are out of glucose, it turns back to pyruvate to make lactic acid

[MattyH7688]

and your qualifications to make any of these claims are??? and why not do both

[BreakdownHit]

wow where are the clinical studies here where are the proven facts? this is based on your opinion and no one cares.

where are the clinical studies that shows this stuff works? everything comes from the company that sells the products. its simple biological common sense that this stuff doesn't work. its not my opinion, its scientific fact.


and to the person above asking what i meant about the protein intake

i said that a bodybuilder should take between 1-1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight, not 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound

[twinposedown]

I posted this in a sticky thread above, but I think this needs its own thread, so I'll repost it--


Alright listen up everyone...

It's been a long time since I've posted on these boards, I usually just check in once in a while for ideas for my workouts, but I feel like I need to enlighten all of you on supplements.

When I first started lifting I was supplement crazy. I worked at GNC, so I could basically get and use whatever I wanted. Whey protein? I've tried many brands. Creatine? Been there, done that. Amino acids? Yup. Multi-Vitamins? You betcha. You name it, I've taken it (asides from the illegal stuff obviously...). For a while, I swore by these supplements. In fact, I felt bad for people that didn't take them and I actively encouraged taking them. My workouts just seemed so much more intense, my gains seemed so much better, and my muscles seemed so much harder. Eventually I had to quit my job at GNC and go off to college. Living on a budget and not having any income meant that using supplements would have to come to an end. However, I continued lifting most days and focusing on my health. You know what I noticed at the end of the day? Without supplements, my workouts were just as intense as they always were, my gains were just as good as they've always been, and my muscles were as hard as they've ever been. You know what I changed? Other than taking supplements, absolutely nothing.

From taking classes and doing research on my own (I'm a biology major, med-school bound) I've come to many realizations. Probably the most important is that ALL, I repeat, ALL sports supplements are nothing more than expensive placebos. I will never, EVER, pay another dollar for sports supplements (other than Gatorade maybe), and I'll explain why, supplement by supplement.

Placebo aye? As in they only work in a persons mind. yeah I'm sure the protein synthesis stimulated by protein powder is a placebo

1.) Protein Powders
If you are serious about weightlifting, you should also be serious about eating a healthy diet. If you eat a healthy diet, you are already eating enough protein!!! It is a PROVEN FACT that protein from supplements are less completely digested than protein from foods, and when people substitute these protein supplements for food, it can be downright dangerous. It's true that athletes need more protein than the average person, but it is not an extreme amount more, which is pretty much what everyone on this website believes. There is EVIDENCE that 1-1.5 grams of protein per KILOGRAM (NOT POUND) of body weight can help with physical activity (not building your muscles).

Bodybuilders need more. Right now research shows 1-1.5 per lean pound - not kilogram. Athletes could get away with 1-1.5 per kilo but not bodybuilders. And please mr Bio major even you can admit that their aren't enough studies to conclusively net every single athletes protein requirements into 1 group


Matter of fact post up these studies, I'd love to read "protein needs for 55 year old beginning weight trainers" or "correct protein consumption for sprinters"


My advice: Stay away from protein powders. If you eat a healthy diet, they are simply unnecessary. In the world of nutrition, more does not equal better!!! If you feel that you need more protein, eat more meat, not expensive powders.

Seeing as how protein powder is 80% protein with the highest content of leucine (you know the amino acid mostly responsible for MPS) then i hardly see how red meat is better. Whey more expensive? O please I buy from overseas and even with shipping and currency conversion whey is by far cheaper then any protein source baring whole eggs

2.) Amino Acids
A book I have best explains these:
"Advertisers point to research that identifies the branched chain amino acids as the main ones used as fuel by exercising muscles. What the ads leave out is that compared to glucose and fatty acids, branched-chain amino acids provide very little fuel and that ordinary foods provide them in abundance anyway. Large doses of branched-chain amino acids can raise plasma ammonia concentrations, which can be toxic to the brain. Branched-chain amino acids supplements are neither efective nor safe and are not recommended."

My advice: Stay away from amino acids. Your body is not built to take them in such concentrations and they can actually be harmful to your health. Again, eat more meat and eat the pyramid.

Define high dose. And your book is outdated, new research shows BCAA's, mainly leucine, as spiking MPS without the calories that come with protein. Nobody takes BCAA's to be used for energy during a workout, it staves off catabolism via keeping MPS up. Again post studies

Dude use your ****ing head. Even without research I know that to create any significant amount of ammonia from BCAA's would be a massive amount


3.)Creatine
Here's a quick biology lesson. When you're going through athletic activity, your body goes through different phases to make energy. The first phase is anaerobic, which requires no oxygen. This whole process lasts for about 2-3 minutes. After that, your body makes energy for itself in an aerobic way, requiring oxygen. This is where the majority of your energy for workouts comes from. Where does creatine factor into this? Well, creatine is the first step on the ladder. Your body uses creatine to create ATP for approximately 2-3 seconds. Right after that, your body uses glucose and pyruvate to create ATP. Then after about 3 minutes comes that aerobic process. This uses glucose, amino acids, and fatty acids to create ATP. What am I trying to say? Well, the point I'm trying to make is that creatine is not a very big factor in creating ATP in your body. Your body makes creatine and you eat in meats. From this, you usually have around 1 gram in your body. The only reason that would merit taking a creatine supplement is if you had a creatine deficiency, and currently there is no creatine deficiencies in the world, so chances are you don't have one. Best case scenario for creatine users? About 2-3 seconds of improvement in their workout, and that's if they're naturally low on creatine, and they'd have to be eating a grossly bad diet for a long period of time to be low on creatine.

heres a quick lesson for you. Energy systems are not "phased" they are all used to some degree. ATP-CP only last 2-3 seconds? Wrong. Try that it does the majority of work for up to 30 seconds and creatine supplementation increases this. How about in between set recovery too? Maybe your text book doesn't cover that aspect which is centrle to bodybuilding

My advice: Stay away from creatine. The long term effects of it are completely unknown, and at best it will provide you with 2-3 seconds of improvement.


4.) Multivitamins
Similar to all the other supplements I talked about, if you eat a normal, healthy diet, you get all the vitamins and minerals you need. Many of you think: more vitamins = better health. When in fact its more like: enough vitamins = healthy, more vitamins = wasted, or potentially toxic and unhealthy. The American food supply is one of the most fortified food supplies in the world, therefore you get more than enough vitamins through a normal, healthy diet.

My advice: A multivitamin is probably the least dangerous supplement you can take. If you feel so strongly about it you can probably take it and you won't get any bad side effects, but your body most likely isn't using any of the vitamins and they're ending up in your feces and urine.

I partly agree. Just explain to me how I'm meant to get 1.3g of calcium per day without 60g of carbs with it. Please.

Or over 300mg of vitamin C without 30g of carbs. I don't need 300g of vitamin C? Read any studies on oxidative stress in weightlifting? How about various forms of Vitamin A, I don't have the time or money to eat a dozen types of fruit/vegetables every day when I can get it from a pill

The fact of the matter is that the placebo effect in sports supplements is huge. The only supplement that suggests better performance is sports drinks like gatorade, and that's only after about 2 hours of intense physical activity.

Almost all supplements are unnecessary for normal healthy people, like most of you on this board. In fact, many of these supplements can be harmful. The only reason many of them aren't banned is because supplements are considered 'food'. So regulation of supplements would be like regulating potato chips or carrots. The only way a supplement can be taken off the shelves is if it is proven 100% beyond a reasonable doubt, dangerous.

Please everyone, stop taking supplements and just eat a healthy diet. It is incredibly better for you and your body will thank you.

If any of you want me to cover any other supplements, feel free to ask.

your arguments are very flawed and not backed up by what you say. Remember this is a bodybuilding board, not a recreational athletes bored, not a senior citizens health lifestyle board.

[Sk8tboar]

Im negging you.. you have no solid proof. I see no degree in this field of work.

Your 1 person against 1 million on the debate about supplements.

Supplements are a huge part of bodybuilding and itll stay that way.

[BreakdownHit]

and your qualifications to make any of these claims are??? and why not do both

i dont have the qualifications, but i have discussed this with 5 different professors, ranging from nutrition to chemistry to biology, and they all had similar opinions

[GoldBlue]

The thing is, most of these supplements don't work for ANYONE. It's a physical and biological impossibility. All these supplements do is provide a for a placebo effect. And why on earth would you take that much protein?! I can guarantee, unless you're extremely, your body is not using nearly all that protein! And like I said before, protein powder in place of food is dangerous. If you want to lose weight, either eat less and exercise more, or eat the same and exercise a lot more.

I've lost 18 pounds since January doing this, so I'm doing something right. It all comes down to how your body takes the products and uses them. I already have a very clean diet, and cardio 5x a week, 40 minutes. I could go into detail, but thats irrelevant. My body is used to this so, I benifit from the use of a supplement, some people dont.

The majority of people will find their body unaffected by supplements because their diet and sleeping habits are not conducive to growth and muscle building. I find that saying these wont work for anyone is a overstatement, but I think a better number would be 60% of body builders are unaffected by supplements, and 95% of All people because their diets and sleeping habits lack.

[mma-kid]

1.) Protein Powders
If you are serious about weightlifting, you should also be serious about eating a healthy diet. If you eat a healthy diet, you are already eating enough protein!!! It is a PROVEN FACT that protein from supplements are less completely digested than protein from foods, and when people substitute these protein supplements for food, it can be downright dangerous. It's true that athletes need more protein than the average person, but it is not an extreme amount more, which is pretty much what everyone on this website believes. There is EVIDENCE that 1-1.5 grams of protein per KILOGRAM (NOT POUND) of body weight can help with physical activity (not building your muscles).

My advice: Stay away from protein powders. If you eat a healthy diet, they are simply unnecessary. In the world of nutrition, more does not equal better!!! If you feel that you need more protein, eat more meat, not expensive powders.

Expensive protein powders? Dude, 5lb ON Whey is $25.

80 servings x 24g of Protein each = 1920g of protein.

Show me where I can buy enough meat to get me 1920g of protein for $25 or less. Plus, I'm pretty sure most people here understand that more meat = more protein. A protein shake is cheaper, quicker, and more convienient than firing up the grill. I'm glad you're newly enlightened and feeling good about sharing info, but staying away from protein powders is NOT going to happen for pretty much anyone serious into weightlifting. If you're serious into bodybuilding - you're serious about getting that protein in ANY way you can.


Unless you're willing to drop by my karate studio Mon-Fri with a nice fat juicy steak for me...

[GoldBlue]

i dont have the qualifications, but i have discussed this with 5 different professors, ranging from nutrition to chemistry to biology, and they all had similar opinions

and thats exactly what they are... opinions. Take everything you read/ hear with a grain of salt. Until you walk the path, you will never know for sure.

Reps for a good conversation and read. Such civil conversations are rare and unusual in this forum.

[phalipi]

You say you'll never waste money again on supps. Well if you think about it, I can get a regular size ON whey bottle for $13. It will last me for problably 2 or 3 weeks. I can buy mabey 2 days worth of steaks with $13 and not even near the amount of protein. You say your in college being tight with money, shoot, Im in college and I know the feeling of struggling with money, ill stick with the powder and mabey a steak a week.

[BreakdownHit]

You are all very lost on this subject, I knew that I would get this kind of response. It's your bodies feel free to do what you want.

All I ask from you people is to do me one favor. Go to a doctor and ask them their opinion on these supplements and you'll hear something very similar to what I said. Neg me if you want, I honestly could care less. Adios.

[twinposedown]

where are the clinical studies that shows this stuff works? everything comes from the company that sells the products. its simple biological common sense that this stuff doesn't work. its not my opinion, its scientific fact.


and to the person above asking what i meant about the protein intake

i said that a bodybuilder should take between 1-1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of bodyweight, not 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound

Post these studies up.

[MattyH7688]

i dont have the qualifications, but i have discussed this with 5 different professors, ranging from nutrition to chemistry to biology, and they all had similar opinions

do any of them look like(was gonna say jay cutler but cuz of steroids) layne norton.. if not they can shut their mouth, i hate this crap.. if u dont look like u lift why give advice on it(can think of a few people on this site like that) if they were such an expert they would obviously look different

[AceMuscle22]

how can you say that supplements dont work. they are not some miricle grow or anything but they do help if combined with hard training and good hutriont

[GoldBlue]

Guys lay off of him. He's only stating his opinion, and trying to offer his view just because you disagree with it doesn't mean you need to neg him and blow him off.

[anabolistic69]

I reposted this in a real section.

[yCat]

lol @ this thread.

[mma-kid]

It would be nice to see ONE source stated...


who agrees?