Has anyone ran into this yet?

[BuffedWildCat]

This seems to be floating all over numerous bodybuilding discussion forums. What is everyone's thoughts on it? Myself, I've got to read it again as I'm still trying to comprehend it completely. I'd like to hear others' thoughts/opinions on it. And please, if you post whether or not you like it, please tell WHY. Thanks, looking forward to hear what others think.

Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training:

Note: first off, I'd like to thank AngelFace, JohnSmith, and Gavin for contributing to this article.

There are basically two accepted theories in the world of weight training. One is called Supercompensation (or Single Factor Theory), and the other is called the Fitness Fatigue Theory (or Dual Factor Theory). Bodybuilding tends to follow the Supercompensation way of thinking, while virtually every field of strength and conditioning, athletics, etc. follows the Dual Factor Theory. The reasoning that almost everyone involved in strength training adheres to the Dual Factor Theory is because there is scientific proof that it works, not to mention that the eastern bloc countries that have adhered to this theory have kicked America's ass at every Olympics since the 1950s.
Bodybuilding, for years, has basically ignored Dual Factor Theory and opted for Single Factor Theory training. In the following paragraphs, I hope to prove to you why Dual Factor Theory should be accepted, taught, and adhered to in the world of bodybuilding as well as all other athletes concerned with strength and conditioning.
Note: The one exception to the rule of "all bodybuilding programs based on Supercompensation" is Bryan Haycock's HST, which, from Bryan's own mouth, says that it wasn't based on dual factor theory, although he hit it dead-on, on all points. What I didn't care for personally with HST is that the same amount of importance is placed on the 15-rep phase and the negative rep phase as with the 10 rep and 5 rep phases. The thickness that rep ranges in the 3-8 range provide are far more impressive to me personally than those who focus on 12-15 rep schemes and countless negatives. I also wasn't excited about working the entire body in one workout. The CNS drain was unbelievable. – However, in saying that, HST is the best I've seen compared to everything else out there, and I did make good progress on it.
The Supercompensation Theory has been, in the bodybuilding community, the most widely accepted school of thought. However, people are beginning to see it as a bit too simplistic (the strength and conditioning and athletic movements have never accepted this practice). The theory itself is based on the fact that training depletes certain substances (like glycogen, and slowing protein synthesis). Training is seen as catabolic, draining the body of its necessary nutrients and fun stuff. So to grow, according to the theory, the body must then be rested for the appropriate/ optimal amount of time, AND, it (the body) must be supplied with all the nutrients it lost. If both of these things are done correctly, then theoretically your body will increase protein synthesis and store more nutrients than it originally had! (i.e. – your muscles will be bigger!)
So obviously the most important part of this theory is TIMING! (Specifically concerning the rest period). But that's where the problem comes in. "If the rest period was too short, then the individual would not be completely recovered and as such the training would deplete the substance even more, which over a period of time would result in overtraining and a loss of performance. If the rest interval were too long then the training would lose its stimulus property, and the individual would recover completely and lose the window of opportunity to provide the stimulus again. If the interval is optimal then improvements surely follow" (AF).
"So, given the one factor theory (Supercompensation), which looks at physical ability as, of course, one factor, you are left with the problem of timing workouts to correspond to the supercompensation wave... anything sooner or later will lead to a useless workout"(JS).
Another issue concerning the Supercompensation/ Single Factor Theory is that of FAILURE. Almost every program that utilizes this type of training advocates the use of muscle/ CNS failure, and then fully rest, and then beat the crap out of your muscles again, then rest, etc (I'm referring to the "work one bodypart per day, six days per week" program as well as HIT, popularized by Mike Mentzer). The issue is that it has now been proven that total failure is not necessarily needed for optimal growth. It has been shown that leaving a rep or two in the tank can and will yield the same results AND therefore a shorter rest period will be needed and less accumulation of fatigue will still be present by the time the next training session rolls around.

A Better Way…

The Dual Factor Theory, also called Fitness Fatigue Theory is somewhat more complex than the Supercompensation Theory. The theory is based on the fact that and individual's fitness and fatigue are totally independent of each other. This theory is entirely dependant on one's base conditioning (or physical preparedness or fitness). The thing is, when you have a high level of fitness (or conditioning/ preparedness) this level changes fairly slowly. This is because over the short term fitness does not fluctuate often. (However, fatigue can change (increase or decrease) fairly quickly when compared to fitness).
"The theory works like an equilibrium in that training will have an immediate effect on the body (similar to supercompensation). This effect is the combination of fatigue and gain (again, remember the equilibrium thing). So after a workout, because of the stimulus that training provides, preparedness/conditioning/fitness increases (gain) but at the same time will decrease due to fatigue from the training."
"So, the outcome of the training session is the result of both the positive and negative consequences of the training session. These two outcomes depend on time. By striking the correct balance, fatigue should be large in extent but short in how long it lasts. Gain on the other hand should be moderate, however, and is longer in duration. Typically the relationship is 1:3, if fatigue lasts x amount of time then gain lasts 3x amount of time."
"Given the two factor theory, which separates physical fitness or preparedness and fatigue, you see that the timing of individual workouts is unimportant to long term gains (unlike Supercompensation)... in other words regardless of whether or not fatigue is or is not present, fitness can and will still be increased" (which is the goal)...
So what you get concerning the two-factor theory is a period of peaking fatigue (maybe 6 weeks), followed by a period of rest (maybe 2 weeks deloading, then one or two weeks of total rest). You view entire weeks and maybe months, as you would of viewed just one workout with the single factor theory. For example, in the single factor theory, one workout represents a period of fatigue. – But, in the two-factor theory, 6 weeks would represent a period of fatigue. In the single factor theory, a day or two (up to a week) represents a period of rest. But in the two-factor theory, up to four weeks may represent a period rest.
"What is important to note is that there is almost universal agreement among scientists and athletes and coaches in all sports EXCEPT bodybuilding that the two factor theory is correct and the single factor theory is not correct and is in fact suitable only for beginners to follow when planning training."
"It is also important to note that most athletes in most sports are experiencing some level of constant fatigue ALWAYS, except for maybe a couple of weekends a year, when they are peaking. Training takes place daily against a backdrop of fatigue". Therefore, you should be able to see why, concerning the single factor theory, it would be very hard to ever fully recover, unless you sat on your ass for two weeks and did nothing."
Applying it to the real world…
When setting up dual factor periodization for the bodybuilder, it is important to remember to plan for periods of fatigue and periods of rest. During a fatigue period (say, 3 weeks), you slowly build up fatigue, and never fully recover. Then you have a period of recovery (another 1-3 weeks) where you train with reduced frequency, volume, or intensity. (My preference is to keep intensity high, while drastically lowering volume and slightly lowering frequency.) At any rate, the fatiguing and recovery periods most likely won't be as drastic for a bodybuilder as it would for a strength athlete because there will be no peaking phase for performance (at no point are you required as a bodybuilder to perform a competition based on strength). Additionally, bodybuilders need less fatigue and more recovery present at any given time (outside of the actual training sessions) when compared to strength athletes.

To be continued (damn character limit)...

[BuffedWildCat]

So here's what I've come up with…

• The general layout of the program will be to train upper body twice per week and lower body twice per week (so, we'll be providing double the training stimulus of typical one bodypart per day programs). The workouts will be fairly intense, heavy on free weight compound exercises, lower volume (per workout, and drastically lower volume per bodypart), and higher frequency than normal bodybuilding workouts. (Now, again, this is individual). Some of you won't be able to handle this amount of frequency yet, because your fitness level sucks. Some powerlifters, OLY lifters, and other strength athletes train up to 20 or 30 times each week (and most of them a minimum of 10 times per week) because their fitness level is so high. – If you find this level of frequency is too high, shorten the loading period and lengthen the recovery period, at first. Or, reduce the frequency to training three times per week, on a Mon, Wed, Fri, scheme, etc. – until your preparedness is increased, and your body can handle the frequency.)
The real difference is in failure and periodization (this is so each body part can be trained twice per week as opposed to only once)…
• No exercise should be taken to failure when using submaximal reps, however, all exercises should be taken to within one or two reps of failure by the final set of the exercise. If muscular failure is reached, there is no way you can train with an increased frequency without overtraining.
• Periodization will be individual to the lifter. However, for the sake of this program a 3-week period of loading followed by one week of recovery is given. (Additionally, if one isn't fully recovered after the one week recovery period, and fatigue still builds, increase the recovery period to two weeks, or have a "recovery month" every 4 or 5 months where you'll have one week of loading and three weeks of recovery during that month to allow your body to fully recover.)
• Progressive Overload is absolutely imperative in every exercise, making sure that load or reps are increased, or that rest periods are decreased to keep intensity high (during loading phases). (Of course, during the recovery phases, if volume is lowered, and frequency reduced slightly, then intensity can and should still be kept high, although the load should be reduced just slightly (approx. 10%) as there is no reason to attempt to set records through progressive overload during this time of recovery.)
• Many different rep ranges will be used. I am partial to the use of rep ranges in the 3-10 range, as it tends to give the lifter a great balance of extreme muscle thickness (like the look of a bodybuilder with a powerlifting background) as well as great neural efficiency.
A. Use of Neural Efficiency (as well as some Myofibral Hypertrophy) occurs in rep ranges of 1-3. (Neural Efficiency increases the percentage of motor units that can be activated at any given time. There is little to no effect on size but increases strength will be great. Little to no protein turnover occurs in this rep range as load is too high and mechanical work is too low.)
B. Mostly Myofibral and Sarcomere Hypertrophy and very little Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy occur with rep ranges of 3-5. (Sarcomere hypertrophy increases contractile proteins in muscle thereby increasing strength directly and also size. Book knowledge suggests that growth here will be mostly myofibral/ sarcomere hypertrophy and will be accompanied with strength gains in other rep ranges and improvements in neural efficiency. Therefore this is perhaps the best rep range for increasing strength. Better balance of load / work done for hypertrophy so no surprises there.)
C. Myofibral, Sarcomere, and Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy (lots of growth as well strength gain within this rep range with little transfer to 1rm) occur with rep ranges of 5-10. (Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy does not directly increase strength but can affect it by increasing tendon angle at the attachment - but of course it increases size.)
D. Some Sarcoplasmic with little Myofibral and Sarcomere Hypertrophy occur in rep ranges of 10-15. (More fatigue and a greater extent of waste products are associated with this rep range. Possible increase in capillary density.)
E. Capillary density increases with little Sarcoplasmic growth with rep ranges above 15. (Muscle endurace begins to become a factor (but who needs that?). Also, waste products are intense – lactic acid buildup to the point of making some individuals sick.)

Here's the breakdown:

Session A (Monday):

* (-)Low Incline Barbell Press/ Closegrip/ 5 Board Closegrip
Dips (Low Chest Dips Followed by one set of Tricep Dips)
Dumbell Extensions
(-)Seated Military Press
Dumbell Overhead Press
Barbell Rows
(-)Pulldowns
Upright Rows
(-)Barbell Curls
Dumbell Curls
Forearms (one superset of wrist curls, reverse wrist curls, and twists)

Session B (Thursday):

(-)Decline Dumbell Press
Flat Flys
*Push Press
(-)Pullups
Low Cable Rows
Lateral Raises (rear, followed by side), Rotator Work (front, side, and rear)
Skull Crushers
(-)Barbell Curls
(-)Pushdowns
Hammer Curls
Forearms (one superset)

Lower Body:

Glutes
Hamstrings
Quads
Calves
Lower Back
Traps
Abs, Obliques

Session C (Tuesday):

*Squats
*Goodmornings
*Cleans
Hack Squats (Old school barbell style are my favorite)
Straight Leg Deadlifts
Calves
Reverse Hypers
Abdominals
Obliques

Session D (Friday):

Squats (lighter)
*Deadlifts/ Trap Shrugs
Front Squats
Glute/Ham/Calf Raises
Donkey Calves
Reverse Hypers
Abdominals
Obliques

Here's the spreadsheet layout of the program set up on an 8 week periodization schedule; 3 weeks of loading, followed by a week of deloading, followed by three more weeks of loading, followed by another week of deloading...

Session A: Monday Typical Week A Week B Week C Week R (rest) Week D (high) Week E Week F (low) Week R (rest)
rduc load 10% rduc load 10%
*Low Incline Bench Press 3x5 (-) max 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 2x12 3x5 (-) 3x3 3x5
Closegrip Bench Press 1x8 1x8 1x8 1x8 1x12 1x8 2x5
5 Board Closegrip Bench Press 1x8 1x8 1x8 1X8 1x10 1x8 2x3
Chest Dips, then Tricep Dips 2x10, 1x10 2x10, 1x10 2x10, 1x10 2x10, 1x10 1x10, 1x10 1x15, 1x15 2x10, 1x10 2x5, 1x5 1x10, 1x10
Dumbell Extensions 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 1x15 2x10 2x6 2x10
Seated Military Press 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 2x12 3x5 (-) 3x3 3x5
Dumbell Overhead Press 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x15 2x8 2x6
Barbell Rows 3x8 3x8 3x8 3x8 3x8 2x12 3x8 4x3 or 3x5 3x8
Pulldowns (wide grip) 2x8 (-) 2x8 (-) 2x8 (-) 2x8 (-) 2x15 2x8 (-) 3x5
Upright Rows 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x15 2x10 3x8 2x10
Barbell Curls 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 2x15 2x10 (-) 3x6 2x10
Dumbell Curls 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x15 2x8 2x6
Forearms 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45

Session B: Thursday

Decline Dumbell Press 3x8 (-) 3x8 (-) 3x8 (-) 3x8 (-) 2x8 2x15 3x8 (-) 1x5, 1x4, 1x3 2x8
Flat Flys 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x8 1x15 2x8 2x6 1x8
*Push Press 3x3-5 3x3-5 3x3-5 max 3x3 2x12 3x3-5 3x3 3x3
Pullups (wide grip) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 2xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 3xfailure (-) 2xfailure (-)
Low Cable Rows 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Lateral Raises (rear, side) 2 sprsets x10 2 sprsets x10 2 sprsets x10 2 sprsets x10 1x15 2 sprsets x10 2x8
Rotator Work 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 1x15 2x10 2x10
Skull Crushers 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5 2x8
Barbell Curls 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 (-) 3x5 2x15 3x5 (-) 2x6 3x5
Pushdowns 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x10 (-) 2x15 2x10 (-) 3x6
Hammer Curls 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 1x15 2x8 2x6
Forearms 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45 1x45



Session C: Tuesday Typical Week A Week B Week C Week R (rest) Week D (high) Week E Week F (low) Week R (rest)
rduc load 10% rduc load 10%
*Squats 5x5 max 5x5 5x5 3x5 5x5 5x5 5x3 3x5
*Goodmornings 3x5 3x5 max 3x5 2x5 2x10 3x5 3x3 2x5
*Cleans 3x5 3x5 3x5 max 2x5 1x15 3x5 3x3 2x5
Hack Squats 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Straight-Leg Deadlifts 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Calves 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 2x20 3x10 5x5
Reverse Hypers 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10
Abdominals 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 2x10 2x20 3x10 4x5 2x10
Obliques 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x20 1x10 2x5 1x10

Session D: Friday

Squats 3x10 3x10 2x20 3x10 2x10 3x15 3x10 3x8 2x10
*Deadlifts, then Trap Shrugs 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 2x5 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 4x5, 2x20 2x5
Front Squats 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x8 2x15 2x8 3x5
Ham/ Glute/ Calf Raises 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 1x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 1x10
Donkey Calves 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure 1xfailure
Reverse Hypers 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10 2x10
Abdominals 3x10 3x10 3x10 3x10 2x10 2x20 3x10 4x5 2x10
Obliques 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x10 1x20 1x10 2x5 1x10


Once again, continued...

[BuffedWildCat]

• Every eight weeks, the exercises with an asterisk (*) should be performed to their respective 1RM (rotate the weeks that you are maxing out on each exercise so that you don't find yourself maxing out on multiple exercises in one workout.) (The reason for maxing out on certain exercises is to increase neural efficiency as well as myofibral hypertrophy).
• Mild use of eccentrics during loading weeks (one or two reps at the end of the last set, occasionally) can be used for the exercises marked with a (-) (This is because tension is increased with eccentrics due to the fact that fewer MUs are recruited, and therefore more tension is put on each individual recruited MU. With added tension comes additional protein degradation and therefore a greater degree of hypertrophy during the recovery period.)
• Exercises with an asterisk (*) should be performed explosively, while exercises WITHOUT an asterisk (*) should be performed in a controlled, comfortable manner, but not superslow.
• Every six weeks, perform squats in session D with 2 sets of 20 reps for increased lactic acid threshold and capillary density. (and it's just a good overall shock to the system.)
• Every six weeks, an entire week will be performed with lower load and higher reps than normal (this is to allow for capillary density to increase, connective tissue strengthening, additional sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and increased lactic acid threshold) and every six weeks a heavier load and lower reps than normal (for increased neural efficiency and myofibral hypertrophy) will be performed.
• Stretch following each exercise session to help aid in recovery and possibly induce hyperplasia (the exception is to stretch each bodypart immediately after its last exercise in Upper Body Session A).
• Intense rest and recovery techniques should be utilized on a daily basis (10 min. cardio blasts, ultra-light load high rep work for flooding an area with blood 24 hours after working that area, contrast showers, massage, water consumption, stretching, etc. – although, occasionally these should be avoided to allow the body to respond to a higher state of fatigue.)
• Concentric-Only work should also be utilized for increases in preparedness, general recovery, and additional means of quality training and weight gain without fatigue – good choices would be sled dragging, medicine ball throws, wheel-barrow walking, etc. These extra workouts should be performed approximately 6-12 hours following training and according to the preparedness of the individual lifter. (However, these are great ways to build preparedness/fitness with very little fatigue buildup.)
• Do the required sets and reps even if you are still a little sore from the previous workout. (Now, if you have a horrible case of DOMS, this is a different story – but that most likely means you are training much too close to muscular failure than needed).
• First of all, change up this program so it works best for you. The one thing I hate about most programs is that the author says to follow his program to a tee or you won't gain a pound. Everyone is different with different needs; so as long as you are following the two factor theory, and know what you are doing, adapt this program to fit your needs. (In saying that, don't bastardize the program. It is well put together and will put solid mass on your body in a relatively short amount of time. The exercises have been carefully chosen, so if you change the exercises at all, make damn sure you know exactly what you are doing; i.e. - don't substitute an anterior deltoid exercise for a medial deltoid exercise just "because they both work the shoulders." This would be a major mistake. Keep the balance there.
• Workouts should be kept brief (about 1 hour). Get in there and get out. Additionally, working smaller, antagonistic bodyparts together can be beneficial. (i.e. – during barbell curls, instead of resting for a couple minutes between sets, do sets of tricep pushdowns.)
• You must continually adapt your workout by changing rep schemes, rest periods, volume, intensity, etc. (occasionally changing an exercise or two) in order to avoid accommodation by the body.
• Chest and Tricep exercises can be left to the descretion of the lifter. Pick exercises you like, but make sure you pick compound exercises, as well as exercises that work your weak areas. (In saying that, I have come up with a very well-rounded chest and tricep routine)
• Incline Barbell press should be performed with a wide grip, elbows out. Closegrip and 5 Board should be performed with close grip and elbows in. (5 board press is where you glue or nail 5 2"x6" boards togther (about 18" long) and bench press with someone holding the boards on your chest. The range of motion is short (3-4 inches probably), but the strength of the triceps and elbow joint explode!)
• I view Incline Barbell Press, Close-grip bench, and 5 Board press as one exercise that basically works both the chest and the triceps simultaneously. The lifter starts with 3 sets of Inclines, and then finishes off with a set of close-grips and a set of 5 board.
• Chest Dips and Tricep Dips are also viewed as one exercise that works both the chest and triceps. Start with 2 sets of deep chest dips, and finish with a set of triceps dips, where you only perform the upper part of the dip.
• You can substitute pull-throughs for reverse hypers if you don't have access to a reverse hyper machine. (if you don't know what a pull-through or a reverse hyper is, go to www.elitefts.com and check the "ask Dave" section, and go to the FAQ. You'll find a description there. Additional descriptions are http://www.t-mag.com/articles/182squat2.html
• Glute/ Ham raises are a must. (If you don't have access to a glute ham machine, go to http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/226rene.html and find out how!)
• Work forearms any way you want to. The given set and rep scheme is what I use more for prehab because I struggle with tendonitis.
• Barbell Rows are best by "starting with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows. This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak. The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast." (JS)
• Pullups are to be done to failure, but not absolute muscular failure. At 260 pounds I can't do very many, so I just do them until I can't complete another full rep, and then I stop.
• Rotator work is given purely as prehab for myself. I use what is called a shoulder horn for this work, so I don't tear my rotator cuff up when handling heavy weight during bench press.
• For squats, I squat with a wide stance, and sit way back, which tends to put the emphasis on my glutes and hamstrings more so than my quads. I find that greater overall leg development is achieved by squatting in this manner. If you are purely a quad squatter, you most likely won't need an additional quad exercise.

[Power-Quest]

That makes my head hurt , ill have to print that out and read it right after a good meal.

[scott_donald]

i find it very complicated but everyone says it is simple once you start it... many people have seen good gains...

[Charger]

Wow!! lots of info to digest BWC. How would all this relate to us "older lifters"?
I may just try this. I need something new.

[ojs]

Originally posted by Charger
Wow!! lots of info to digest BWC. How would all this relate to us "older lifters"?
I may just try this. I need something new.

Check your back and bi routine again. It's phase 1 of my basterdized version. The full version gave me a headache! Way too much planning for my old brain.

[Charger]

so what do you think about this routine over all???

[ojs]

Well, "Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training" is really a superior way to look at training. The reason is that is cycles all the variables related to muscle development. I personally had to read way too much to get a feel for it. And then, after understanding a bit more, decided that some of those variables were really irrelevant to me as a bodybuilder and decided to only consider a few of the variables when putting together a routine. I don't believe , for instance, that all of your body's muscles develop at the same rate. So it's really pointless to periodize your whole body based on the same protocol. I prefer to let the muscles themselves say when it's time. So I incorperate Negs, Pos, Statics, Reps and low heavy reps each with some slideing intensity built into the the sets, reps, AND contraction time for each exercise. ....JUST MY OPINION!!

[Charger]

I agree, there is no routine that fits everyone. I just liked the way it mixes things up, and the volume.
I just have to wonder if it would result in overtraining.

[ojs]

I attracts you because it almost smells like GVT to you doesn't it?

[BuffedWildCat]

Originally posted by Charger
Wow!! lots of info to digest BWC. How would all this relate to us "older lifters"?
I may just try this. I need something new.

Oh, well as far as that goes I'm just picky about where I post. I stick to the female forum and sometimes I come over here. I figure I'm more likely to elicit a civilized discussion here. I guess another reason I posted here is because I want to hear from some experienced bodybuilders cause I mean I've only been lifting for not even quite 4 years yet. So I'm not much more than a rookie in this sport as it is.

And don't worry, I read it once and couldn't digest it all either, it's just overwhelming me right now. That's another reason I posted it here, hehe. I thought that perhaps someone would be familiar with it and could explain it in a way I can understand. Otherwise I guess I'll just be reading it a few dozen times til I get it. If it ends up being too complicated I probably won't try it cause realistically, I'm not THAT serious about bodybuilding. I mean I'd like to continue to improve my physique but it's not CRITICAL that I do so. My main concern is maintaining what I have and continuing to get stronger. So I'm not exactly willing to put in a lot of time and effort into coming up with some complicated routine. I want to keep it simple where I can just go in there and lift for about 45 min and be done. Ya know?

[supadave]

I like it and am going to try it soon. It took me about 4 or 5 times of reading it until i started to understand it.
Heres the linkhttp://www.asylum-strength.com/dual.htm
it is easier to read, but I still had to print it and read it more .

[BuffedWildCat]

Originally posted by ojs
...I don't believe , for instance, that all of your body's muscles develop at the same rate. ...

I agree. I mean I've seen it first-hand on myself.

Originally posted by Charger
I agree, there is no routine that fits everyone. I just liked the way it mixes things up, and the volume.
I just have to wonder if it would result in overtraining.

That's just it, they are saying it shouldn't result in overtraining like supercompensation can if your timing is off. I think that's the whole point that they're trying to get across with that theory, is that you don't have to push your body to absolute failure and totally annilate your muscle groups. They are saying to use just the right amount of stimulus to elicit a change, an adaptation. So when you train the same bodypart twice a week you are supposedly able to do that because you didn't annilate that muscle the first time around. At least that's my understanding of it.

And like they said, it is the methodology that coaches use to train their athletes. That makes sense seeing as how we have speed skating practice more than once per week. Altho I don't think my speed skating coach (and I suspect many others) uses the theory correctly. I mean he pounds us at practice and then there will be another practice the very next morning! I mean I don't see how he expects us to get better that way. I don't do that, others on the team do, but if I did that it would be seriously overtraining for me. I mean it takes me 2 days just to recover from one 2 hour speed skating practice and I don't think that I'm quite 100% recovered even then! So I don't know what he's thinking there. If he wants to have practice 2 days in a row then I would think either A) he wouldn't push us as hard during one of them or B) one of them would be light skill work.

So anyway, I'm just trying to figure this all out myself, trying to learn more about the RIGHT way to train or perhaps more accurately, I'm trying to find the right way to train for ME. In order to do that I need to learn and understand what else is out there besides what I know now. I also wouldn't mind becoming an "expert" on the subject. I'd like to be well-versed about all training methods so that I can also be a better personal trainer. I mean I figure if I know and understand what all is out there, then that just gives me more "tricks" in my arsenal to help my clients who are all different individuals with different goals, different genetics, etc. The more training methods I know and understand the better off I am for me and for my clients.

[BuffedWildCat]

Originally posted by supadave
I like it and am going to try it soon. It took me about 4 or 5 times of reading it until i started to understand it.
Heres the linkhttp://www.asylum-strength.com/dual.htm
it is easier to read, but I still had to print it and read it more .

Cool. I don't feel so bad now cause I read it once and my head was spinning hehe. I may have to print it out too.

Make sure you post your findings, please, thanks!

Oh and pm me when you do so I know to go look for it, I don't always come over to this forum. I'm not 35 yet so I really don't want to impose too much.

[supadave]

I'll start a thread and come over often I like reading your posts

[ojs]

Originally posted by BuffedWildCat
That's just it, they are saying it shouldn't result in overtraining like supercompensation can if your timing is off.

They are staggaring the variables that are taxed during muscle stimulation in order to avoid over-training.

Originally posted by BuffedWildCat
And like they said, it is the methodology that coaches use to train their athletes.

Can I just all you Kitty for short? .....I'm joking!

The point! Coaches are usually training a bunch of athletes using one system. And so they map out the whole season and just follow the periodization like a cookbook. This stye of training would be the safest to apply to a spread of genetically varying athletes.

[BuffedWildCat]

Originally posted by supadave
...come over often I like reading your posts

Aw, thanks, I appreciate that, especially because I think that sometimes people take me wrong, so it's nice to know that some understand me.

Originally posted by ojs
They are staggaring the variables that are taxed during muscle stimulation in order to avoid over-training.

Yeah, that makes sense. Does sound like a method worth looking into. Now if I could just quit posting long enough to read and comprehend it, lol.

Can I just all you Kitty for short? .....I'm joking!

Bwahahahahaha! That's hilarious! Sounds like something my husband would say.

The point! Coaches are usually training a bunch of athletes using one system. And so they map out the whole season and just follow the periodization like a cookbook. This stye of training would be the safest to apply to a spread of genetically varying athletes.

Yeah but I think MY coach (well, at least one of them, there are two) tries to train us all like we're world class elite athletes! EEK! I was at practice on Saturday and the rest of the team had just gotten finished outdoor skating for who knows how long then came inside to indoor train for 2 hours! Everyone else lives much closer so they train together all the time, I have to drive 2 hours to practice. In a way I'm kinda glad cause otherwise the coach would probably be trying to talk me into all that extra training which I REALLY don't believe is right for me. I've tried practicing more often, did that right before Nationals, stayed overnight at another skater's house so I could and I was just so fatigued it wasn't even funny, I really didn't see the point in continuing to train when I was so freakin spent. I felt like crap and I skated like crap, I don't see the point in that. I cannot recover that quick when he pounds us for 2 hours straight. We only get a few minutes rest between drills and the drills are long AND intense.

[Hibiscus09]

I just have to wonder if it would result in overtraining.

Me too! I'll give it another read later but it sure looked like a lot. Do I get to use 3lb dumbbells? LOL Or better yet, those heavy hand thingies they used to give you in aerobics classes -- I believe they were 1.5lbs.

Some of you won't be able to handle this amount of frequency yet, because your fitness level sucks. Some powerlifters, OLY lifters, and other strength athletes train up to 20 or 30 times each week (and most of them a minimum of 10 times per week) because their fitness level is so high.

I don't know if it's fitness level sucking or the use of good common sense. These are probably the same athletes who walk like 120 year old men at the age of 50.

I want to keep it simple where I can just go in there and lift for about 45 min and be done. Ya know?

Me too!

[Charger]

Originally posted by BuffedWildCat
Aw, thanks, I appreciate that, especially because I think that sometimes people take me wrong, so it's nice to know that some understand me.

BWC, post here anytime, I respect your opinion.

As for taking you wrong, don't let that stop you We don't all agree over here in the old(er) bunch, but we do appretiate new ideas and opinions.
Besides, who can you flirt with in the womans sections, just kidding

[Gator]

Now thats a good read..
Thx BFC..

Gator

[fitnubian]

Have a friend doing his dissertation on something similar, so we've discussed it a few times.

Theoretically, the dual factor theory makes sense. I'm not too sure on it's practicality as far as different activities go (whether it's for bodybuilders, swimmers, skaters, runner etc or mutli-athletes). Also, since the goals of a bodybuilder and an "athlete" are so different, it might make sense to employ different theories to them. hmmm...going to have to think more on that...

BuffedWildCat,

I think all coaches train their athletes as elites. I think that's the ideal that most coaches and athletes want to reach, all based on the feeling that if you want to play like an elite, you gotta train like an elite. And I think that this true to an extent. The amount of training elites do, especially pre-season, is very intense, insane and that's coz the competition is just as intense. And there is a certain level of fitness and conditioning required to beat the competition that cannot be reached without the athlete doing the time. But I believe as you move closer to a meet/competition date, one should taper off the practice sessions, and not do a thing the day before.