No flat bench press for women?

**sweetbecky** · 12-23-2003, 05:20 PM

I have heard that women should avoid flat bench press... is there a reason why?

**Aurora** · 12-23-2003, 05:36 PM

no thats stupid. If its true then men should avoid crunches.

**Titania** · 12-23-2003, 05:58 PM

LOL, Aurora

Avoid flat benches?? I'd never avoid such an important lift (unless an injury prevented it).

**imperfectly_lou** · 12-23-2003, 06:02 PM

Never heard of that... women powerlifters bench press

**iboyo** · 12-23-2003, 07:07 PM

and why? what was the reason given? in any case, that idea is total b.s.

p.s. aurora, everyone, actually men and women (here it comes!) should avoid crunches... and sit-ups.
i will wait for the storm of protest to give the reasons.

**A-rod** · 12-23-2003, 07:11 PM

B.S

**BuffedWildCat** · 12-23-2003, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by iboyo
and why? what was the reason given? in any case, that idea is total b.s.

p.s. aurora, everyone, actually men and women (here it comes!) should avoid crunches... and sit-ups.
i will wait for the storm of protest to give the reasons.

Okay, I'll bite, and WHY?

Now be specific, I want solid, logical reasoning, I will take nothing less.

Hmmm, maybe I can guess, um, because deadlifts will take care of that?

If that's the case that's out for me, I don't do deadlifts, don't need them at this point. I've built up my abs pretty thick without deadlifts and squats. At this point doing deadlifts with my speed skating would be overkill or in other words overtraining. My lower back and hams get plenty of exercise twice a week.

Okay, so take it away iboyo, and it'd better be good!

Oh, and btw, sweetbecky, building up your pecs makes it look like you have more cleavage.

You definitely need to bench also for other reasons than just the above.

**playmaker** · 12-23-2003, 11:58 PM

hey A-rod post some pics mate

**iboyo** · 12-24-2003, 01:08 AM

the best source on ab training is a book by...
pavel tsatsouline.
i will make a short explanation.
conventional crunches and sit-ups effect the abs almost not at all. instead they overstress the hip flexors, which is bad for the spine.
correct ab training is a highly skilled endeavor.
buff, you probably do not need ab training at all. skating and weightlifting provide plenty. don't rule out deadlifts. remember there are "strength only" protocols that do not increase muscle mass.
also volume of training can always be adjusted.
most importantly...
dls or any other EXERCISE can NEVER be overtraining because a QUANTITY / TIME has to be specified!
buffcat i had no idea you were so HARDWORKING. you have been busting ass all this time with basically incomplete UNDERSTANDING OF SPORTS SCIENCE!
how many others out there are equally FRUSTRATED? i tell you this is the most important lesson you can learn. don't get offended, don't get scared, when this lesson is applied your progress will accelerate and never stop.
buff i am so glad that you kept thrashing my posts. see where we are now? you are about to make an incredible breakthrough. a lot of people reading these posts are about to make breakthroughs. i had forgotten how important this simple lesson is. i forgot that many people can not see it. thanks for reminding me.
- cogito ergo atollo -

p.s. i did not forget about abs. keep the questions coming. also read faq 3, #1, on the clarence bass website.

**Aurora** · 12-24-2003, 01:31 PM

Ya Im going to give up doing sit up movements because its too hard to use correct form and hurt my back by utilizing hip flexors

, but I will go straight into the deads which appearantly is far easier form and safer then crunches.

P.S. pass the doobie this way.

**GymChic** · 12-24-2003, 03:37 PM

Flat bench pressing should be a secondary chest exercise for females (and in most cases guys also). Incline movements should be your core compound exercise.

Most people have no problem building lower pecs, it's the upper pecs that usually lag, and with woman, our lower pecs are hidden anyway. Inclines put a lot more focus on upper pecs than any other type of flat pressing movement. And, in most cases (male or female) are far better at building the type of pec development we, as bodybuilders, are looking for.

Flat bench presses have their place in a woman's routine, but it's secondary at best.

For the most part, flat bench presses with an Olympic bar are done to build the ego and not much else.

Unless you are a powerlifter, incline presses top the list.

GymChic

**BuffedWildCat** · 12-24-2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by iboyo
the best source on ab training is a book by...
pavel tsatsouline.
i will make a short explanation.
conventional crunches and sit-ups effect the abs almost not at all. instead they overstress the hip flexors, which is bad for the spine.
correct ab training is a highly skilled endeavor.
buff, you probably do not need ab training at all. skating and weightlifting provide plenty. don't rule out deadlifts. remember there are "strength only" protocols that do not increase muscle mass.
also volume of training can always be adjusted.
most importantly...
dls or any other EXERCISE can NEVER be overtraining because a QUANTITY / TIME has to be specified!
buffcat i had no idea you were so clueless. you have been busting ass all this time with basically NO KNOWLEDGE OR UNDERSTANDING OF SPORTS SCIENCE!
how many others out there are equally clueless? i tell you this is the most important lesson you can learn. don't get offended, don't get scared, when this lesson is applied your progress will accelerate and never stop.
buff i am so glad that you kept thrashing my posts. see where we are now? you are about to make an incredible breakthrough. a lot of people reading these posts are about to make breakthroughs. i had forgotten how important this simple lesson is. i forgot that many people can not see it. thanks for reminding me.
- cogito ergo atollo -

p.s. i did not forget about abs. keep the questions coming. also read faq 3, #1, on the clarence bass website.

First off, I STRONGLY disagree with you. And my proof comes from myself, for years since about the age of 18, all I ever did was cardio and ab training. I did not even start weight training until the age of 27 (I'm 31 now). Once I got my diet in line and my abs came out, lo and behold they were already quite thick. Now seeing as how I didn't weight train up until about 4 years ago and my cardio consisted of mostly skiing on my nordic track with some session skating on the weekends (as I didn't start speed skating til later in life either), I would be very hard pressed to say that my thick abs did not come from my ab work over the years. So I'm plain not buying that one.

Secondly, I'm sick and tired of being put down and insulted by you! You have some nerve calling me clueless and telling me I have no knowledge of sports science! I realize I have a lot to learn yet (once again, that is one of the reasons I'm here) but doggone, you have NO RIGHT to call me clueless especially when I've spent about 75% of my time the past 2 years reading every bit of information I can get ahold of both in books and on the internet about exercise physiology, bodybuilding, exercise science, nutrition, human kinetics, human metabolism, human biomechanics, spent the money to receive training to become a personal trainer, etc. I really don't think you have a right to be telling me I'm clueless. Have a little freakin respect!!! I mean here I am being open-minded and genuinely trying to learn from you but you can't seem to oblige me without insulting me!

**iboyo** · 12-24-2003, 07:05 PM

i was in shock. i can see that you have been distracted by that. so, what are you disagreeing with me about? honestly your post is kind of chaotic, take a few breaths and try again.
crunches did not make your abs thick. maybe nordic track or skating or skiing or rock climbing or genetics. it does not matter. what matters is you have totally missed the most important thing you can learn as an athlete.
this is...
the relationship between the volume of training and overtraining. look, i will erase the word, "clueless" now read my post again. buff you are at the edge of an important breakthrough, do not let your lack of confidence, sensitvity and fear hold you back. think about this. it does not matter if the information i am presenting is surrounded by horrible obscene insults or flowery love poems. the content and value are the same. get real!

p.s. ok buff, i changed it now READ IT.

aurora, do some research. better yet try it, you will get a pleasant surprise, everyone does. if you have not tryed it, you do not know.

i think that i shall never see
a poem as lovely as...
buffcat doing wide grip dls...

'

**BuffedWildCat** · 12-24-2003, 08:08 PM

Geez iboyo, I must admit you are keeping me very busy! But you're still a meanie.

Originally posted by iboyo
i was in shock. i can see that you have been distracted by that. so, what are you disagreeing with me about? honestly your post is kind of chaotic, take a few breaths and try again.
crunches did not make your abs thick. maybe nordic track or skating or skiing or rock climbing or genetics. it does not matter.

It doesn't matter! What do you mean it doesn't matter? You said,

conventional crunches and sit-ups effect the abs almost not at all. instead they overstress the hip flexors, which is bad for the spine.

And I am saying they most certainly do affect ab development. And I presented you with some evidence for why I think they do affect ab development, and you say it doesn't matter?! What the heck?

what matters is you have totally missed the most important thing you can learn as an athlete.
this is...
the relationship between the volume of training and overtraining.

Boy, you are REALLY good at this, that is, changing the subject anytime I present some evidence for my side. You wanted to argue that sit-ups and crunches do nothing for the abs and I disagreed. Now STICK TO THE TOPIC! You are suddenly going off about overtraining now, once again, circumventing the issue at hand.

Oh okay, yes, you did weakly try to counter my agruement by saying that either my genetics or the other exercises made my abs thick but yet gave no logical reasoning for that (pretty lame if ya ask me) then conveniently and quickly changed the subject.

Ah well, so I'll counter anyway even tho you've tried to take me off on a tangent. Okay, so first off, I know my own body and I KNOW my abs did NOT used to be this thick, I'm SURE of it.

Secondly, I would highly doubt it was the skating or even speed skating because the abdominals are not activated in the upright position, it only flexes the spine in the supine position. And when I am bent over in the speed skating form, it is my erector spinae contracting eccentrically to flex my spine.

Thirdly, what position am I in when I exercise on my nordic track? Upright. So once again, none to very minimal stimulation of my abdominal muscles occurs.

look, i will erase the word, "clueless" now read my post again. buff you are at the edge of an important breakthrough, do not let your lack of confidence, sensitvity and fear hold you back. think about this. it does not matter if the information i am presenting is surrounded by horrible obscene insults or flowery love poems. the content and value are the same. get real!

p.s. ok buff, i changed it now READ IT.

Blah, blah, blah, ya know, NONE of this is relevant.

**iboyo** · 12-24-2003, 08:26 PM

the fact that you have thick abs only proves... that you have thick abs. that is all. get used to it. buff you have not presented evidence of anything. you need to find out what presenting evidence consists of. your posts are getting less relevant and making less sense.

some people reading these posts are learning the lessons you are not. for that i am thankful. keep up the good work all.

**BuffedWildCat** · 12-24-2003, 08:39 PM

So why don't you present some of your own? At least I try to back myself up and don't just post off the wall ideas without any logical reasoning for them. The way I look at it, at least I'm trying to show WHY I believe the way I do and why I advise the way I do. Everytime I ask you for some logical reasoning you just circumvent the whole issue. That's what I'm seeing.

**iboyo** · 12-24-2003, 08:42 PM

present some of my own what?

**Laurie** · 12-24-2003, 10:23 PM

I do both.

So there! ;�

(grins)

**MsFit** · 12-25-2003, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by sweetbecky
I have heard that women should avoid flat bench press... is there a reason why?

I'm not going to get into the debate here but the chest muscle is one and it contracts as one. Therefore, the flat press would be the overall mass builder, in males as well as females. I do think women would benefit well with the addition of various inclines to lift the busts and create higher clavage.

**Crematia** · 12-25-2003, 09:50 AM

I also do both flat and incline bench presses once a week.

**Aurora** · 12-25-2003, 11:06 AM

I see someone banned this clown, thank god.

**A-rod** · 12-25-2003, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by playmaker
hey A-rod post some pics mate

No , i`m not going to hijack this one ........

If you want some pics ask post it in my journal and i`ll trow the pics there for you ....

**Hibiscus09** · 12-26-2003, 02:57 PM

Flat bench pressing should be a secondary chest exercise for females (and in most cases guys also). Incline movements should be your core compound exercise.

I do prioritize incline presses for the line down the center of my chest. I like it.

I don't really want a lot of muscle size in the chest area -- when I had that, I didn't like it. Although, flat bench presses with the bar definitely worked for that! I do my flat bench movement on a machine press now because of an injured rotator cuff.

**BuffedWildCat** · 12-26-2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Hibiscus09
[B]... I don't really want a lot of muscle size in the chest area -- when I had that, I didn't like it. Although, flat bench presses with the bar definitely worked for that! I do my flat bench movement on a machine press now because of an injured rotator cuff.

Well shoot, ya shoulda passed that extra muscle over to me!

I wouldn't mind having a bit more chest muscle.

So how did you injure your rotator cuff? Just curious, cause I think I've come close a time or two, weight training related.

**Hibiscus09** · 12-26-2003, 05:07 PM

Well shoot, ya shoulda passed that extra muscle over to me! I wouldn't mind having a bit more chest muscle.

LOL -- I just didn't like it when I started seeing a pec muscle that was getting thicker. I know bodybuilders like that -- but I'm certainly not a bodybuilder & just don't like it for me.

So how did you injure your rotator cuff? Just curious, cause I think I've come close a time or two, weight training related.

I don't know, Buffed -- I was lifting pretty heavy during the time period I injured it -- well, for me. LOL I would start at 20lb dumbbells & move up to 40s on the last set of military presses & did a lot of other shoulder press exercises very heavy. I know there was a machine press at the old gym that I could load with a 45lb + 10lb weight on each side for a while. One of the guys laughed and told me I pressed what he was pressing on that. Guess I just wasn't being very smart -- but I did feel really strong and was able to lift shoulders like that for quite a while.

Anyway, there was no specific twinge or anything -- I just noticed it started hurting a few days after I had done shoulders and chest for the week. Then I started not being able to raise my arms above a certain level.

I had an MRI, did physical therapy for a long time, iced it to death, had a cortisone shot -- nothing seemed to help. It stayed injured for about 9 months and I started taking glucosamine/MSM -- about 3 months after that I was able to start lifting shoulders again. I don't know if it was just time or the glucosamine or a combination. I still stay pretty light with shoulders -- I go up to 25lbs on military presses and only use 8, 10 & 12lb dumbbells for delts. I can shrug heavy still -- it never effected those -- I use 35lb dumbbells to shrug.

I've stopped doing upright rows altogether because the sports medicine doctor told me to stay away from those as they are very compromising to the rotator cuff.

I can tell my shoulders aren't as broad as they used to be.

However, it's okay -- I'd rather have more narrow shoulders if it means not having that pain.

**BuffedWildCat** · 12-26-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Hibiscus09
...I don't know, Buffed -- I was lifting pretty heavy during the time period I injured it -- well, for me. LOL I would start at 20lb dumbbells & move up to 40s on the last set of military presses & did a lot of other shoulder press exercises very heavy. I know there was a machine press at the old gym that I could load with a 45lb + 10lb weight on each side for a while. One of the guys laughed and told me I pressed what he was pressing on that. Guess I just wasn't being very smart -- but I did feel really strong and was able to lift shoulders like that for quite a while.

Anyway, there was no specific twinge or anything -- I just noticed it started hurting a few days after I had done shoulders and chest for the week. Then I started not being able to raise my arms above a certain level.

Oh boy, glad I asked, sounds EXACTLY like my situation. I also lift very heavy (for me), same thing, I've been pressing 40's for 8 reps altho those didn't seem to be the culprit. First time I noticed some abnormal (other than your usual muscle soreness) pain in my right shoulder was the day after I had done some cable side laterals. I was kinda in a hurry and was training heavy as usual and I think I just did a few reps too fast and too heavy. Geesh, and I'm always harping on my clients to do their reps SLOWLY. Guess I need to take my own advice! But anyway, for almost a week it didn't feel quite right and especially when I'd raise my arm above parallel. Thankfully it went away.

Then this past Tuesday I was flat benching on the smith machine and I was really pushing hard, straining, etc, with some heavy weight and then on Wed and Thur same thing, my right shoulder had a lot more pain in it than my left shoulder like something other than just muscle soreness and it was most noticable when moving my arm above parallel and also if I tried to reach across my back to the opposite shoulder blade. Now today it feels fine, I think I've been lucking out, but something tells me I probably need to back off the weight a bit and take it a little easier before I really do cause some permanent damage. I'd hate to damage my rotator cuff cause it seems like it's never the same after that. My husband messed his up benching too and that was YEARS ago but it still bothers him to this day. He started taking that glucosamine/MSM too and also said it helped.

Yeah, and I've been especially hardcore with shoulder training cause I'm cursed with narrow shoulders. I finally got them in proportion so I suppose I can back off a bit and just maintain them where they're at.

I've stopped doing upright rows altogether because the sports medicine doctor told me to stay away from those as they are very compromising to the rotator cuff.

Yeah, I remember you saying that in another post. They've never bothered my shoulders but they really started hurting my wrists when I started increasing the weight. If I use a weight heavy enough to stay in the 8-12 rep range then it hurts my wrists. So I just stopped doing them altogether because of that, I can't use a heavy enough weight anyway without it hurting my wrists so I figure why bother.

I can tell my shoulders aren't as broad as they used to be. However, it's okay -- I'd rather have more narrow shoulders if it means not having that pain.

Yeah, can't blame ya there!

**Hibiscus09** · 12-26-2003, 05:54 PM

Definitely be careful, buffed! That sounds exactly like me. Mine would hurt for a while, then stop. So, I would lift again & then a few weeks later it would start nagging at me again. It seemed to hurt more following chest sometimes than it did doing shoulders. I could bench 115lbs back then (doesn't sound like a lot -- but I'm not that big of a girl -- LOL) Then, finally one day, I guess it had had enough and stopped functioning altogether!

**sweetbecky** · 12-26-2003, 08:18 PM

My pecs have definitely grown, you can see them through a t-shirt. I have always done vertical chest press (Nautilus) and incline flyes. I started flat bench pressing dumbbells and I can't say I've noticed a difference. I've heard (admittedly from men) that flat bench press is useless for women, to stick only with incline exercises.

When I first noticed my pec development about 9 months ago, my breasts did lift. Now they seem back to normal, but the "bump" of my pecs above them is bigger, with a line!

Is there any way to get the lift back?

**Laurie** · 12-27-2003, 12:45 AM

Yes, rotator cuff injuries are no fun. Had an inkling of having it after starting Strength classes September 2002. Found I could not do side lateral raises with my left and dropped them as it hurt to do them. After one session, it was hard to bring my arm to parallel for a few days. So my instructor said best to drop that exercise.

Everything went fine and I was progressing quite well with the dumbbells and especially after changing over from machine shoulder presses to bb presses. Was going as far as 125 for the bench and 95 for the incline. Was doing 30lb db for flyes and was working hard on my shoulders as well. But, after a few weeks I noticed my Left shoulder was staying sore long after my Right would be fine. Mostly across my shoulder blade area. The Left was abit weaker than my right and figured this was "natural" that I could build up to match in strength with my right. Was doing it too....so it seemed.

Thought I was getting bursitis really just before going to see my family doctor. He prescribed an MRI as he thought I could have a rotator cuff problem. It was abit painful crossing my left arm over my chest to touch my right shoulder. Fortunately, I still had nearly full arm movement.

Turned out it was an old Supraspinatus tear (front) that I may have had for years but did not come to the fore until I started lifting heavy. Dang it.

So, went to a accupuncturist for the pain.....that worked. Had to drop shoulder presses for awhile and do rotator cuff exercises to strengthen those areas (they do work). Was told not to do upright rows anymore for the same reason Hibiscus gave.

Afterwhile I changed over to shoulder presses with dbls w/palms facing and other alternative shoulder work. Military presses are hard on Supraspinatus, I found out. The palms facing method puts less stress on the rotator cuff (and my tear). Had to do something.....my shoulders were looking kinda puny compared to my arm work. Seems to work as no more overt shoulder pain after exercising as before.

Dropped the flyes on the orthopedic doctor's orders too but have no problems with bench presses.

**sweetbecky** · 12-27-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by sweetbecky
My pecs have definitely grown, you can see them through a t-shirt. I have always done vertical chest press (Nautilus) and incline flyes. I started flat bench pressing dumbbells and I can't say I've noticed a difference. I've heard (admittedly from men) that flat bench press is useless for women, to stick only with incline exercises.

When I first noticed my pec development about 9 months ago, my breasts did lift. Now they seem back to normal, but the "bump" of my pecs above them is bigger, with a line!
Is there any way to get the lift back?

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No flat bench press for women?

who said that about bench?

Re: who said that about bench?

buff, you are going to HATE this... and love it.

Re: buff, you are going to HATE this... and love it.

i am sorry i called you clueless buff...

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what evidence?

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