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  1. #1
    Registered User BigVince187's Avatar
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    Train the muscle that is lagging first?

    Hello,

    For example on shoulders, the back of my shoulders is weaker than the front.

    So should I train the back first and the rest ?


    What I propose is:
    Bent Over Cable Rear Deltoid Raises 8-8-6-4
    Dumbbell Press (Middle) 8-8-6-4
    Military Press Front/Barbell Raises (Front) 8-8-6-4
    One Arm Side Lateral Raise/Cable Raises Side 8-8-6-4
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    Registered User Heluva's Avatar
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    i ALWAYS train weaker side first, so i can put more effort into it, and then do the stronger side when already tired ...
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    Yes.
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    If you posterior deltoid is weak, I think you would benefit more from frequency (doing rear delt moves 2-3 times a week). Facepulls + rea delt flies. Then you will give the muscle a proper chance to catch up. I still think everyone should do rear delts twice a week to ofset all the pressing they do.
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    Registered User mastrflex's Avatar
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    applying this to arms , would you say the same thing still apply's? Since in this case with shoulders its just a different part of your shoulders and arms being bi's and tri's say. Doing in my case bi before tri even though tri is the bigger muscle??
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    Registered User Heluva's Avatar
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    what i meant is: start with weaker side when doing the exercise for a body part, right bi vs left bi, not bi vs tri.
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  7. #7
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    it's the old Weider "Priority Principle"...actually espoused by many a pro....the idea is that you have the most energy in the beginning so you start with the greatest need....


    sounds good in theory, but for many people, they need a certain amount of time INTO the workout, before they are truly and fully "warmed up"...in that case, starting out with the weaker part may not necessarily be the best choice....
    Lift as MUCH as you can, for as MANY reps as you can,
    while in complete control of the exercise.
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  8. #8
    Futurama Fanboy sharpieblet's Avatar
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    i always go biggest muscle group to smallest muscle during a training session. my rear delts still need more catching up but i don't hit them before my chest/back/tris/bis on my upper body days b/c they'll still get caught up as long as i'm getting more frequency in them. with such a small muscle as the rear delts, will the difference in weight used during your sets be THAT different compared to doing them earlier rather than later? i would think not to be totally honest...as long as they're getting hit with good form and frequently, i think proper nutrition and rest will take care of the rest.
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  9. #9
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sharp
    i always go biggest muscle group to smallest muscle during a training session.

    I agree! starting out with presses, is always a great idea, but one should start VERY light and build up, as in a pyramid...once the blood is really flowing, then you can solidly hit those rear delts....

    These days I prefer a seated press machine, in my home gym, it is the lever type......you get a similar activation as you would with behind the neck presses, but without the impingement of the shoulder girdle and the rotator cuff.....

    if done correctly, one can get a LOT of rear delt out of pressing......
    Lift as MUCH as you can, for as MANY reps as you can,
    while in complete control of the exercise.
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  10. #10
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    here's one of my favorite old pics of Arnold doing behind the neck presses:

    Lift as MUCH as you can, for as MANY reps as you can,
    while in complete control of the exercise.
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  11. #11
    Futurama Fanboy sharpieblet's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI View Post
    I agree! starting out with presses, is always a great idea, but one should start VERY light and build up, as in a pyramid...once the blood is really flowing, then you can solidly hit those rear delts....

    These days I prefer a seated press machine, in my home gym, it is the lever type......you get a similar activation as you would with behind the neck presses, but without the impingement of the shoulder girdle and the rotator cuff.....

    if done correctly, one can get a LOT of rear delt out of pressing......
    when you say starting out very light are you referring to rear delt training or the presses? i always do 3-4 warm up sets on my compounds, in fact my squats take at least a few sets before they start feeling 'right' and i can REALLY start moving decent weight. and i used to do behind the neck presses on a smith machine but stopped doing them when i read about a lot of people getting RC problems and such. i figured face pulls in the 12-15 rep range should work just as well :/
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by sharpieblet View Post
    my rear delts still need more catching up but i don't hit them before my chest/back/tris/bis on my upper body days
    They get worked with back =/ Also: rear delts bigger than bis would be awesome.

    Originally Posted by sharpieblet View Post
    with such a small muscle as the rear delts, will the difference in weight used during your sets be THAT different compared to doing them earlier rather than later? i would think not to be totally honest
    They're 'such a small muscle' because the average person barely ever uses them and they atrophy to be the pathetic undeveloped foeteus of the front delts. I think the weight difference used during sets can jump dramatically.

    When I tried out a rear delt machine at the gym, I managed to feel challenged by just 30lbs. These things go up to ~150-200 and I've seen guys flying the whole stack.
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  13. #13
    Registered User JOHN GARGANI's Avatar
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    I was referring to the presses...it is good that you do the 3-4 warmup sets of that first compound move...people fear that, because then they won't be able to lift X or Y in their 5th set, but that is foolishness: the body needs a good warming up, as you are doing...

    also it doesn't matter if you end up doing 7 or 8 sets of your first compound move...if you do less of something else later on, so what?

    people try to adhere too much to neat clean 3 of this and 3 of that....
    Lift as MUCH as you can, for as MANY reps as you can,
    while in complete control of the exercise.
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  14. #14
    Registered User k9pit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tyciol View Post
    When I tried out a rear delt machine at the gym, I managed to feel challenged by just 30lbs. These things go up to ~150-200 and I've seen guys flying the whole stack.
    Try Bent over Rear Delt rows in the Smith.

    Once you get the body position and plane of motion down (bring the bar up to chest), you may be able to concentrate on the contraction and stretch on the eccentric much better. At least that's my experience. And this is without that weirdo lower back arch stabilization balancing act that occurs when going heavy-ish with freeweight Bent Over RD Rows.
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    Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI View Post
    it's the old Weider "Priority Principle"...actually espoused by many a pro....the idea is that you have the most energy in the beginning so you start with the greatest need....


    sounds good in theory, but for many people, they need a certain amount of time INTO the workout, before they are truly and fully "warmed up"...in that case, starting out with the weaker part may not necessarily be the best choice....
    Sooo...just warm up effectively? *shrugs*



    I rotate excersizes like this quite a bit and have gotten excellent results. My OHP used to be laughable (in some ways still kinda is), so instead of doing it 3rd as I used to do, I did it first for about 4-6 months - HUGE difference! Though I would add one caveat - this applies only to compounds, not iso's.
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    Originally Posted by sharpieblet View Post
    ..such a small muscle as the rear delts, will the difference in weight used during your sets be THAT different compared to doing them earlier rather than later? i would think not to be totally honest...as long as they're getting hit with good form and frequently, i think proper nutrition and rest will take care of the rest.
    I hit my rear delts twice a week. On back day and on shoulder day.

    For me, I'd say a 10lbs difference or more mainly from the overall fatigue factor when I do rear delts last. When this is the case, I usually just end up rep'n out a set or 2 in sets of 15-20. When I do them first or earlier in my routine, I'll do more weight, reps 10-15, and likely more sets.

    I find it best to hit them last on back day as they feel "primed" so to speak and "ready to go". I'll rep the sets out at a low to moderate weight.

    Also on shoulder day.....
    In my opinion, which may contrast with others I feel it depends on your routine and being honest with yourself about your form/progress. I used to always start off with military presses. For my these I felt they hit my front delts the hardest, and side delts moderately. I used to think my side delts were really getting slammed by my military pressing, I've come to the conclusion that they aren't once I started doing side delts first with wide grip upright rows or one arm DB uprights supersetting with lateral raises, much better mmc. Not that DOMS is the end all, but since doing things this way, it's the first time my side delts were sore as hell for the next 2 days. My current priority is side delts, for now I'll hit first, then rears, then front. It sounds backwards but I doubt my front delts will shrink when bench pressing is factored in. None of this **may** matter if your routine includes DB shoulder presses however which are inherently more side delt involved.
    Last edited by k9pit; 04-09-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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    Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI View Post
    I was referring to the presses...it is good that you do the 3-4 warmup sets of that first compound move...people fear that, because then they won't be able to lift X or Y in their 5th set, but that is foolishness: the body needs a good warming up, as you are doing...

    also it doesn't matter if you end up doing 7 or 8 sets of your first compound move...if you do less of something else later on, so what?

    people try to adhere too much to neat clean 3 of this and 3 of that....
    i agree completely. there was a great thread about warming up properly a month or so back, it made me start doing 3-5 legit warm up sets before my first major compounds of the session. it takes about 4-5 sets before my legs have enough blood flowing to get their potential lifting in. likewise when i do incline bench press.

    Originally Posted by k9pit
    I hit my rear delts twice a week. On back day and on shoulder day.

    For me, I'd say a 10lbs difference or more mainly from the overall fatigue factor when I do rear delts last. When this is the case, I usually just end up rep'n out a set or 2 in sets of 15-20. When I do them first or earlier in my routine, I'll do more weight, reps 10-15, and likely more sets.

    I find it best to hit them last on back day as they feel "primed" so to speak and "ready to go". I'll rep the sets out at a low to moderate weight.

    Also on shoulder day.....
    In my opinion, which may contrast with others I feel it depends on your routine and being honest with yourself about your form/progress. I used to always start off with military presses. For my these I felt they hit my front delts the hardest, and side delts moderately. I used to think my side delts were really getting slammed by my military pressing, I've come to the conclusion that they aren't once I started doing side delts first with wide grip upright rows or one arm DB uprights supersetting with lateral raises, much better mmc. Not that DOMS is the end all, but since doing things this way, it's the first time my side delts were sore as hell for the next 2 days. My current priority is side delts, for now I'll hit first, then rears, then front. It sounds backwards but I doubt my front delts will shrink when bench pressing is factored in. None of this **may** matter if your routine includes DB shoulder presses however which are inherently more side delt involved.
    i do my rear delts last as well, face pulls super setted with sitting lateral DB raises for the medials. 2x a week in the 12-15 range hoping to bring both them and the medials up to my anteriors some day...i don't do any direct training to the anteriors outside of incline/flat benching b/c i don't want them getting any further out of proportion and they DO get a lot of stimulation from those pressing movements anyway.
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