Military Press and Smith Machine?

[Decapolis]

I see a lot of people doing these at my gym. They range from the typical 140 pounder pressing a plate on each side looking like his arms are going to pop out of his shoulders from horrible form, all the way to what I call the ?Ogres? who press over 300 pounds.

Whether it?s the n00b or experienced ?Ogres?, it seems like the range the machine limits them to does not look healthy.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

I have tried these myself but can?t ever seem to find a good position for the seat so my arms come down in a more natural way.

Is it just me?

[Hola Bola]

Disagree. I love using the smith machine for military press. Try moving the seat back one or two notches from 90 degrees and it will feel much more comfortable.

Example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbOF_6std6A

[ThickAsABrick]

I like using it now and again too.

It's just another tool.

[Defiant1]

I see a lot of people doing these at my gym. They range from the typical 140 pounder pressing a plate on each side looking like his arms are going to pop out of his shoulders from horrible form, all the way to what I call the ?Ogres? who press over 300 pounds.

Whether it?s the n00b or experienced ?Ogres?, it seems like the range the machine limits them to does not look healthy.

Anyone agree? Disagree?

I have tried these myself but can?t ever seem to find a good position for the seat so my arms come down in a more natural way.

Is it just me?

I like using the smith for Front presses, letting the bar come way down and not fully extending.

[Defiant1]

I like using it now and again too.

It's just another tool.

That's what she said.

[ThickAsABrick]

That was my attitude when I made those "videos" to get me through college

fixed

[Defiant1]

fixed

Yep and that monster wasn't CGI either.

[DJAuto]

I do BTN presses with the smith sometimes. There's something about the normal military press on a smith machine that doesn't agree with me.

By the way, nice lifting music in the background Hola.

[Decapolis]

Good video... Elbows and arms look natural through the full movement. I'll try the seating angle you recommended and see how it goes.

[DEVzzz]

Disagree. I love using the smith machine for military press. Try moving the seat back one or two notches from 90 degrees and it will feel much more comfortable.

Example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbOF_6std6A

It is comforting to see a big guy like hola saying this is ok.

I bought a smith machine a few months ago and it has really brought my training intensity up. I can go heavy on lifts like shoulder presses without worries of injury. I like it a lot. Smith machine FTW.

[LaxPro]

i think where the smith machine comes in handy is it really lets you amp up the intensity. you don't have to worry about stabalizing a bar with a lot of weight on it, so you can direct your full attention to moving the weight up and down, with perfect form, and really emphasize your delts. i've also noticed, with the smith, i can always do another rep. seriously. i could probably do 3-4 more reps on a smith then on a barbell with the same amount of weight.

[Starz]

thats because the smith machine usually helps you a little.

For instance, I usually have to add 20-30lbs on most any exercise I do on the smith cuz the way it's angled (meaning the movement is not a perfect up-down motion) actually assists you a little bit because the bar provides the weight resistance on the way down, thus the weight being a little lighter than free weights.

Thats what I found for me anyways....-

[Guardian]

I dont like smith. Its to damn easy if you ask me. I can press around 215 on the smith for reps but only do 175 on free weight seated and let me tell you I feel it alot more on the free weight. I think the only time a person should use the smith military is when they get into very high poundages to prevent injury perhaps 300+

[DJAuto]

thats because the smith machine usually helps you a little.

For instance, I usually have to add 20-30lbs on most any exercise I do on the smith cuz the way it's angled (meaning the movement is not a perfect up-down motion) actually assists you a little bit because the bar provides the weight resistance on the way down, thus the weight being a little lighter than free weights.

Thats what I found for me anyways....-

A conventional smith machine bar weighs 15-20 pounds.

[Dominik]

Disagree. I love using the smith machine for military press. Try moving the seat back one or two notches from 90 degrees and it will feel much more comfortable.

Example... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbOF_6std6A

^^^ I've been using it more for BBing myself. It never felt comfortable for chest work but overhead it's fine. The key like you said is dropping the seat back a notch to bring it more in line with the angle of the smith. Those, shrugs, and maybe calf raises on a block are the only exercises I'd use the thing for.

Btw, when it comes to bodybuilding, I don't get why people keep saying if you do X on the smith you can only do 3/4 of X with a barbell. It's nothing more than a tool that provides resistance. Who gives a **** about stabilization when you're trying to target a muscle group for hypertrophy? Hit those muscles with the maximum amount of weight you can move for say 5-12 reps with good form, and you'll build muscle. It's that simple. Sure it's inferior for strength training, but that's a separate issue.

[hulkinout]

My left shoulder impingement won't let me barbell press, but on Smith, I do fine because I don't have to worry about balancing. As others have said, it's simply another tool. Switch it out with barbell presses if you can do them, dumbbell presses, etc. I even like the Hammer Delt Press; the angle of the handles is a little easier on my wrists.

I've seen a couple competitive builders at my gym lately using the standing calf raise arm to shoulder press, or they take one of the arms of the Hammer Bench Press and use that for a one-arm standing military.

[Guardian]

^^^ I've been using it more for BBing myself. It never felt comfortable for chest work but overhead it's fine. The key like you said is dropping the seat back a notch to bring it more in line with the angle of the smith. Those, shrugs, and maybe calf raises on a block are the only exercises I'd use the thing for.

Btw, when it comes to bodybuilding, I don't get why people keep saying if you do X on the smith you can only do 3/4 of X with a barbell. It's nothing more than a tool that provides resistance. Who gives a **** about stabilization when you're trying to target a muscle group for hypertrophy? Hit those muscles with the maximum amount of weight you can move for say 5-12 reps with good form, and you'll build muscle. It's that simple. Sure it's inferior for strength training, but that's a separate issue.

While its always good to isolate, at the same time I feel it is not wise to use this method of thinking "too" much. By this I mean using free weight especially compound excercises will increase muscularity in areas that a smith may not. Sure "stabilizers" may not be the main area of concern for bodybuilding but such areas may give greater detail and overall muscularity especially when you get more advanced.

When I train deltoids my goal is to not only maximize delt developement but also maximize developement of all areas that support delotids as well which in the long run will make the area look that much better.

[DEVzzz]

^^^ I've been using it more for BBing myself. It never felt comfortable for chest work but overhead it's fine. The key like you said is dropping the seat back a notch to bring it more in line with the angle of the smith. Those, shrugs, and maybe calf raises on a block are the only exercises I'd use the thing for.

Any vids of shrugs on a smith? I tried it but it felt crazy. I also use it for high incline press and calf raises.

[Hola Bola]

Any vids of shrugs on a smith? I tried it but it felt crazy. I also use it for high incline press and calf raises.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnaFE0Q0XYw

[Dominik]

While its always good to isolate, at the same time I feel it is not wise to use this method of thinking "too" much. By this I mean using free weight especially compound excercises will increase muscularity in areas that a smith may not. Sure "stabilizers" may not be the main area of concern for bodybuilding but such areas may give greater detail and overall muscularity especially when you get more advanced.

When I train deltoids my goal is to not only maximize delt developement but also maximize developement of all areas that support delotids as well which in the long run will make the area look that much better.

I'm just not buying it. You follow pro bodybuilding even more closely than I do, and you know the many of the pros have built great physiques with machines. Follow a typical Dorian workout and it's practically 100% machines. Nobody looking at Jay Cutler on stage is going to tell whether he built his chest with a barbell or the smith machine.

I'm a big fan of freeweights, but from a purely bodybuilding standpoint, I really don't think they make that much of a difference. I'm sure plenty of pros have built impressive legs with the leg press and hack squat for example. The greater the stabilization involved by a movement, the less weight you can use. I can't see how that helps the bodybuilding process.

Take a guy struggling to balance 100lb DBs for shoulder press who has no interest in "strength training." With a machine like the smith or HS he's going to be able to load up the shoulders with more weight and most likely build bigger muscles in the process. That's all that matters from a BB standpoint. Hypertrophy in the target muscles. Not skillfully balancing stuff.

[hulkinout]

Any vids of shrugs on a smith? I tried it but it felt crazy. I also use it for high incline press and calf raises.

I don't know why they'd feel weird, other than unlocking the bar. I like doing behind the back shrugs on

Once in a while, I'll do wide grip upright rows on the Smith when I'm plateauing on the barbell version. For some reason 1-2 workouts of these almost always gives me momentum to keep progressing on the bar version.

[Guardian]

I'm just not buying it. You follow pro bodybuilding even more closely than I do, and you know the many of the pros have built great physiques with machines. Follow a typical Dorian workout and it's practically 100% machines. Nobody looking at Jay Cutler on stage is going to tell whether he built his chest with a barbell or the smith machine.

I'm a big fan of freeweights, but from a purely bodybuilding standpoint, I really don't think they make that much of a difference. I'm sure plenty of pros have built impressive legs with the leg press and hack squat for example. The greater the stabilization involved by a movement, the less weight you can use. I can't see how that helps the bodybuilding process.

Take a guy struggling to balance 100lb DBs for shoulder press who has no interest in "strength training." With a machine like the smith or HS he's going to be able to load up the shoulders with more weight and most likely build bigger muscles in the process. That's all that matters from a BB standpoint. Hypertrophy in the target muscles. Not skillfully balancing stuff.

But alot of pros started off using free weights Including Yates. Yates did free weight shoulder excercises until he tore is rotator. As I said in my post I feel one should start off with free weight and only move to smith when they have a large base. I would theorize once you have developed a strong network of muscle and stabilizors that you can begin to isolate more without losing the former. Most if not every pro falls into this category and thus machines are more warranted.

There will come a point for many top lifters where they simply cannot develope enough of one area to cover another for a freeweight lift without some type of modifcation. A good example is deadlift, once you get over perhaps 400 or more (depending on the person) the forearms and grip simply wont be able to support the movement no matter how long you train and thus people use straps. But at the same time It isnt a good idea to have a person who is doing 200 for reps using straps.

Basically I believe that people should focus on total body and stabilizer developement until the point when "the weak link" simply will not get any stronger unless it has a crutch whether that crutch be a machine or strap or partial movement or what have you.

[oskimbo]

You gotta remember that some Smiths are counter balanced and others are not. Our, very old school one's, bar weighs in around 60-65#'s! Where my old HS’s smith has a counter balance . When unracked the bar just teeters halfway on the poles.

I've never been a big fan of them but love doing Hack Squat variations on it. Especially with a board under my heels. One thing with smiths is, depending on your exercise, you need to pay attention to body mechanics. Example, when teaching a free weight squat you try to have the kid visualize a pole going from his heels, through his hips, to the bar. Now with the Smith you just place your heels in line with the bar. With shoulder press you want the back of your head and butt lined up with the bar. So when you tuck your chin, the bar can travel to your neck.

[Dominik]

But alot of pros started off using free weights Including Yates. Yates did free weight shoulder excercises until he tore is rotator. As I said in my post I feel one should start off with free weight and only move to smith when they have a large base. I would theorize once you have developed a strong network of muscle and stabilizors that you can begin to isolate more without losing the former. Most if not every pro falls into this category and thus machines are more warranted.

There will come a point for many top lifters where they simply cannot develope enough of one area to cover another for a freeweight lift without some type of modifcation. A good example is deadlift, once you get over perhaps 400 or more (depending on the person) the forearms and grip simply wont be able to support the movement no matter how long you train and thus people use straps. But at the same time It isnt a good idea to have a person who is doing 200 for reps using straps.

Basically I believe that people should focus on total body and stabilizer developement until the point when "the weak link" simply will not get any stronger unless it has a crutch whether that crutch be a machine or strap or partial movement or what have you.

Sure, freeweights are a great place to start. I'm talking about the guys who have already built a solid foundation and are training exclusively for bodybuilding. From that point I really can't see machines being a major compromise if all they're concerned with is building muscle. Like I said, we don't see someone like Cutler or Martinez or Dexter on stage and think "yeah, you can really tell he built those delts with military press!"

Me personally, I love training with freeweights. But I'm not training to be a bodybuilder like many guys here. Basically I focus on the big compounds at the start with freeweights and towards the back end of my workout when fatigue is creeping in I'll use machines. It's more productive. Instead of trying to do a half-assed job stabilizing a bar or DB with tired muscles, I can load up more weight and hit those target muscles with better form. Smith, cables, Hammer Strength, you name it. So I'm on both sides of the fence.

[hulkinout]

Likewise, sometimes it just comes down to: someone's on the bench, someone's on the Hammer, what's left? Smith machine's free. Do I wanna wait for something else, or do I wanna get in and out?

[Ajk_Lpool]

^^^ I've been using it more for BBing myself. It never felt comfortable for chest work but overhead it's fine. The key like you said is dropping the seat back a notch to bring it more in line with the angle of the smith. Those, shrugs, and maybe calf raises on a block are the only exercises I'd use the thing for.

Btw, when it comes to bodybuilding, I don't get why people keep saying if you do X on the smith you can only do 3/4 of X with a barbell. It's nothing more than a tool that provides resistance. Who gives a **** about stabilization when you're trying to target a muscle group for hypertrophy? Hit those muscles with the maximum amount of weight you can move for say 5-12 reps with good form, and you'll build muscle. It's that simple. Sure it's inferior for strength training, but that's a separate issue.

Dominik just shut down this thread.

[Ajk_Lpool]

Take a guy struggling to balance 100lb DBs for shoulder press who has no interest in "strength training." With a machine like the smith or HS he's going to be able to load up the shoulders with more weight and most likely build bigger muscles in the process. That's all that matters from a BB standpoint. Hypertrophy in the target muscles. Not skillfully balancing stuff.

Markus Ruhl also touched on this subject in the issue of MD with him & Dennis Wolf on the cover. He said that he preferred to simply push the weights up using his delts and not focus on stabilizing/balancing like he would on a free weights. He believed that this was a great way in developing them and allowed him to focus all his strengh by isolating the delts in one easy motion. To an extent I agree.