Perfect Form and Ego Discussion

[LWW]

Zen Master Pockets says in my lifting thread that full ROM and good form is some beautiful thing.

My analysis is of that is, if your a competitive powerlifter.

WTF is the point of satasfying anyone with your ROM and perfect execution of a lift if your lifting for bodybuilding?

To me, this zen master perfection stuff is also ego lifting.

The only place where your form is critical is getting a good lift in a judges power meet.

I echo proper form for stating injury free but cheat reps DO utilize other bigger muscles, so the risk of injury of the small muscle is actually less with “cheat” reps.

There are times when better form is good for bodybuilding eg hitting a specific muscle, but there are also times cheating reps hits other muscles better. An example was I was doing high rep curls and was nursing my elbow, I started shrugging and noticed a got one of the best trap workouts plus arms.

There’s no shame in this, fellas IMO.

I don’t compete in powerlifting, so why be concerned about pretty perfect form all the time.

Discuss it......

[mtpockets]

LMAO you sure do get Butthurt when someone has a different opinion than you.

Pockets says in my lifting thread that full ROM and good form is some beautiful thing.

At least get it straight at what was said and don't cherry pick parts to suit your narrative

Here is what I said, verbatim

Watching someone perform a heavy lift with proper form and full ROM is a thing of beauty

Watching someone perform a lift with more weight than they should with poor form and short ROM is cringe worthy imo

What about my opinion that I stated there upset you so much?

I don't understand. It upset you so much you started another thread LOL

WTF is the point of satasfying anyone with your ROM and perfect execution of a lift if your lifting for bodybuilding?

I don't fully understand what you are trying to get across, specifically

WTF is the point of satasfying anyone

No idea what you are trying to burp up here, so I will again only speak for me. I don't lift to satisfy anyone, I lift for me, whether I am alone or in a crowded gym, I use a weight that I can handle and lift with the best form possible.

WTF is the point of satasfying anyone with your ROM and perfect execution of a lift if your lifting for bodybuilding?

I can only speak for myself, the benefit of good form is increased safety and full ROM gets the maximum of the benefit from the lift.

There are exceptions, partials for example.


Ego lifting is not defined as lifting with proper form despite what you think..

Ever heard of leave your ego at the gym door?

Even google defines ego lifting as

Ego lifting is when someone (or even you!) attempts to lift more weight than they should, whether in the pursuit of muscle and strength gains or to impress any onlookers who happen to be using a nearby squat rack

Don't get mad again. imo you're wrong a lot in this post too LMAO.

[LWW]

Well, why do you even lecture me about form in the other thread?

I’ve been doing light weights consistently for about two years.

I have only lifted heavy a few times in those 2 years, so why do I need to hear a lecture about what you think is beautiful and cringe worthy.

You never even watched the vid, it may not look pretty but it doesn’t feel (dangerous wise) as bad as it looks.

That’s why I pointed out that I had ZERO low back stress.

I’m actually planning on doing Hack deads today with about 350.

Had I did conventional deads with that load yesterday, my lower back would be no good today. That’s how great the lift is.

You are wrong, a person who is constantly worried about being perfect when there’s no contest of “form” is also ego.

Injuries usually happen from doing the same thing all the time, grip position, everything. Change is good, this goes for adding strict and cheat reps to the mix and changes grip position.

Who says I’m mad?

[mtpockets]

Well, why do you even lecture me about form in the other thread?

No Lecture you mentioned garbage form and I stated my opinion on form.

Watching someone perform a heavy lift with proper form and full ROM is a thing of beauty

Watching someone perform a lift with more weight than they should with poor form and short ROM is cringe worthy imo

In typical fashion, you blew an artery.

You are wrong, a person who is constantly worried about being perfect when there’s no contest of “form” is also ego.

Absolutely not.

Firstly it isn't about being worried.

Do you take you hands off the wheel and close your eyes when driving? I mean it isn't a race, there are no judges or anyone watching. So why not?

If you are going to be throwing a few hundred pounds around, or even 10 lbs in the case of shoulders, why not do it as safe as possible even if it isn't in a contest?

Using good form is just common sense and good practice that most bodybuilders employ to lessen the chance of injury and it's not something that is only practiced when someone is watching FFS.

[LWW]

If you are going to be throwing a few hundred pounds around, or even 10 lbs in the case of shoulders, why not do it as safe as possible even if it isn't in a contest?

Using good form is just common sense and good practice that most bodybuilders employ to lessen the chance of injury and it's not something that is only practiced when someone is watching FFS.

Well, that’s the purpose of the lift I did Zen Master, it’s a lift that you can hoist the most weight safely.

Again, it don’t look pretty, that’s why I said you probably think the form is garbage. It would be stupid to do a pretty lockout and hold with that lift unless you are tall, well you know I’m short. It would also be stupid to try and control putting the weight downward, that’s an injury waiting to happen. In that lift you hoist it and and don’t worry about the negative the fuker, and repeat, this builds the starting power and hits those big mover muscles.

As for the ROM, with a stack of plates like that and being short, less ROM is the nature of the beast here.

And guess what Master Pockets I did as I said today - Hack dead lift 350 2x2, lower back is not phased, I feel it more in the lats and glutes, especially from yesterday’s action.

I can use the best form on conventional deads and use the lightest weights that will get myself worked and I’m to the point that if I push it with good form, my lower back holds me down. That’s one reason why I’m doing these heavy plate RDLs with a rounded back, you probably didn’t watch that vid either, it explained things.

[mtpockets]

Well, that’s the purpose of the lift I did Zen Master, it’s a lift that you can hoist the most weight safely.

Again, it don’t look pretty, that’s why I said you probably think the form is garbage. It would be stupid to do a pretty lockout and hold with that lift unless you are tall, well you know I’m short. It would also be stupid to try and control putting the weight downward, that’s an injury waiting to happen. In that lift you hoist it and and don’t worry about the negative the fuker, and repeat, this builds the starting power and hits those big mover muscles.

As for the ROM, with a stack of plates like that and being short, less ROM is the nature of the beast here.

And guess what Master Pockets I did as I said today - Hack dead lift 350 2x2, lower back is not phased, I feel it more in the lats and glutes, especially from yesterday’s action.

I can use the best form on conventional deads and use the lightest weights that will get myself worked and I’m to the point that if I push it with good form, my lower back holds me down. That’s one reason why I’m doing these heavy plate RDLs with a rounded back, you probably didn’t watch that vid either, it explained things.

LMAO, you still going on about this?



Talk about the lift all you want.

I was never discussing it and not going to discuss it now,

I could care less actually. If you say you did something, I'll take that at face value.


My opinion was simply on form in general after you brought the topic up.

I never mentioned you or the lift at all because as I said 15 times my comment was my opinion on form in general.

You didn’t like it and you had your usual Sh!t Fit. That’s not a me problem, that's a you problem.

I can’t make my opinion any simpler and you have two choices: agree or disagree.

It's no skin off my ass either way

Have a good one, my plane is ready to board

[ArchAngel'73]

I was in the gym army for about 20 years before I learned my lesson.
I was a machine gunner. I sprayed and prayed everything with great vehemence and ferocity. I just found a target and emptied the whole gotdamn belt into it. No discipline, no pride, just a goal, kill.
Then I went to war (competed in bb'ing) and my lifting life changed forever. (That and I listened to Lee Haney).

Although throwing a bunch of sh*t on a wall and hoping some of it will stick method worked somewhat effectively, I was missing something.
Between Haney, Metzner, and the use of scientific methods applied to weight training I concluded that being the machine gunner was sub-optimal.
The true goal when you're in the gym army is to be the sniper.
Where you know exactly what you're doing, know your mind, body, and will inside out, and there is a complete absence of emotion. You get your heartbeat down, you focus, and you pull the trigger. One shot, one kill.

Every movement is perfected to achieve that one goal...the perfect rep. There is no room for sloppiness, sloppiness will rob you of your kill.
Sloppiness gets you injured, lack of mental and emotional control is the true sign of weakness, and this is why many in the gym army will never be snipers, they can only ever live up to being the machine gunner.
After 20 or so years lifting there should also come a bit of "professional pride" in one's lifts, as well as honesty to self.
Slop is slop and meant for pigs. However, a perfectly executed rep is art to the higher echelon of lifters.

Alas, it is here we must recognize the passion and fury all gym warriors have and the unquenchable desire to let all hell break loose. A complete break from control with too much weight, sloppy reps, poor breathing form, and yelling/grunting like a few chromosomes short fuk-tard.
I'll even admit to that.
However, that should be the once in a blue moon exception. Anything else leads to injury and a missed kill.

We plan, we hunt, we stalk, we kill, and more importantly, we show up the next day to do it all over again.

Weight training is art. You can use Rembrandt's techniques, or you can use your finger paints.

[thedickus]

Then I went to war (competed in bb'ing) and my lifting life changed forever. (That and I listened to Lee Haney).

"Stimulate don't annihilate"

Lee Haney had one of the last great Mr Olympia physiques in my opinion. Yates was the start of the ruination of bodybuilding and turning it into the freak show it's become. Lee Priest was and is one of my favorites, along with Lee Labrada, Flex Wheeler, Shawn Ray, and Bob Paris. I love watching Lee Priest mimic other pro bodybuilders with their sloppy form and partial/cheat reps using mainly momentum.
I don't remember who said it regarding the use of cheat reps, but it's one of my favorite lessons. Cheating is used to extend a set, to make it harder, not easier.

[LWW]

I was in the gym army for about 20 years before I learned my lesson.
I was a machine gunner. I sprayed and prayed everything with great vehemence and ferocity. I just found a target and emptied the whole gotdamn belt into it. No discipline, no pride, just a goal, kill.
Then I went to war (competed in bb'ing) and my lifting life changed forever. (That and I listened to Lee Haney).

Although throwing a bunch of sh*t on a wall and hoping some of it will stick method worked somewhat effectively, I was missing something.
Between Haney, Metzner, and the use of scientific methods applied to weight training I concluded that being the machine gunner was sub-optimal.
The true goal when you're in the gym army is to be the sniper.
Where you know exactly what you're doing, know your mind, body, and will inside out, and there is a complete absence of emotion. You get your heartbeat down, you focus, and you pull the trigger. One shot, one kill.

Every movement is perfected to achieve that one goal...the perfect rep. There is no room for sloppiness, sloppiness will rob you of your kill.
Sloppiness gets you injured, lack of mental and emotional control is the true sign of weakness, and this is why many in the gym army will never be snipers, they can only ever live up to being the machine gunner.
After 20 or so years lifting there should also come a bit of "professional pride" in one's lifts, as well as honesty to self.
Slop is slop and meant for pigs. However, a perfectly executed rep is art to the higher echelon of lifters.

Alas, it is here we must recognize the passion and fury all gym warriors have and the unquenchable desire to let all hell break loose. A complete break from control with too much weight, sloppy reps, poor breathing form, and yelling/grunting like a few chromosomes short fuk-tard.
I'll even admit to that.
However, that should be the once in a blue moon exception. Anything else leads to injury and a missed kill.

We plan, we hunt, we stalk, we kill, and more importantly, we show up the next day to do it all over again.

Weight training is art. You can use Rembrandt's techniques, or you can use your finger paints.

Thanks for your insight Arch, much respect.

I don’t necessarily though consider some shrugging towards the end of a set of curls and using proper cheating eg some other muscle groups throwing chit at the walls though.

Why does it all have to be black and white? Why can’t there be both, start off very strict then when being strict is exhausted, Horse coc it, with safety of course.

Age can play a factor, I’m not that old, but I’m motivated by beating my previous workout by any means, that’s what I wake and look forward to, if I did strict reps every day and every rep I’d loose interest having to go train eventually.

[ArchAngel'73]

Thanks for your insight Arch, much respect.

I don’t necessarily though consider some shrugging towards the end of a set of curls and using proper cheating eg some other muscle groups throwing chit at the walls though.

Why does it all have to be black and white? Why can’t there be both, start off very strict then when being strict is exhausted, Horse coc it, with safety of course.

Age can play a factor, I’m not that old, but I’m motivated by beating my previous workout by any means, that’s what I wake and look forward to, if I did strict reps every day and every rep I’d loose interest having to go train eventually.

What is the purpose of the shrugging at the end of a set of curls? My goal being bb'ing, I see none. It doesn't help the biceps and hits the traps. There are far more efficient ways to either A) further tax the bi's or B) target the traps more directly and efficiently with shrugs. Imho, it is therefore a complete waste of time and energy.
However, after failing using good form doing BB curls, and you decide to put your lower back into it and heave it up there for a few reps I see nothing wrong with that.

It can be both, but just imo, not very frequent.

I hear you on the last bit. I too get sloppy as I'm testing my limits as that almost guarantees the next session the form will be perfected. However, after doing a training cycle like that I always do a "re-start" the following week. Drop the weight by 50%, pyramid up using perfect form, and eventually you'll be able to solidify your new strength gains, but using perfect form. Once you get there with the weight, the rep needs be perfected before another increase should be attempted...imo.
This ways allows you to be both efficient, and to unleash one's inner demons on the iron.

[LWW]

What is the purpose of the shrugging at the end of a set of curls? My goal being bb'ing, I see none. It doesn't help the biceps and hits the traps. There are far more efficient ways to either A) further tax the bi's or B) target the traps more directly and efficiently with shrugs. Imho, it is therefore a complete waste of time and energy.
However, after failing using good form doing BB curls, and you decide to put your lower back into it and heave it up there for a few reps I see nothing wrong with that.

.

I actually discovered this shrug thing while doing curls by accident, I was nursing tennis elbow which I believe stemmed from not switching my gripping around eg always keeping an overhand grip.

I’ve been trying many forms of shrugs and most shrug movements I find damn near useless and they are pretty boring. The best ones I’ve found are behind the back shrugs and one arm shrugs, the two-hand barbell though, yuk haven’t felt anything worthy there?

Anyway, so I’m doing curls for high reps and being careful not to fully extend my arm, because of the elbow, so I started keeping my traps tense and actually shrugging the bar up, then curl it. I was actually very pleased with the traps after that, I wasn’t disappointed in the bicep work because they felt it too, was a set of 43 reps with some rest/pausing in that set, it wasn’t a quick bang it out nonstop rep set.

I’m just providing detail here, not arguing.