Agmatine = NO INHIBITOR or PRECURSOR?

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

I was reading up on this new ingredient as I was interested in stacking it with my current NO-stack and I saw these articles on pubmed:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1217329

Does this mean that Agmatine works against NO products? If so, then it would make no sense to take this product if you are taking any sort of Arginine, Arginine AKG, etc. type No-product, correct?

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Is there a MAN rep who can answer this?

[Madevilz]

id like to know this as well

[getbustered]

I'm sure Andro or Dinoiii will respond as soon as they are logged on and see this thread. They aren't the type to duck questions. I don't see Joey posting much anymore, though, so you might have to give them a little time if they aren't online right now.

[G.W. Hayduke]

I suggest you read this: http://www.manupdb.com/viewtopic.php?t=1077

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Originally Posted by Aeternitatis

I suggest you read this: http://www.manupdb.com/viewtopic.php?t=1077

I did...but I didnt see anything answering my question: "Is Agmatine/BluePrint a Nitric Oxide Inhibitor and if so would it make no sense to take this if you are taking any sort of NO (A-AKG, etc) product?

I read this: "As there is even contradicting research on this compound due to all of the mechanisms included..." but the links I posted are from Pubmed and therefore should be quite valid...no?

The description on the site states "Goes Beyond Arginine" but from what I have read this is the anti-NO product.

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Originally Posted by getbustered

I'm sure Andro or Dinoiii will respond as soon as they are logged on and see this thread. They aren't the type to duck questions. I don't see Joey posting much anymore, though, so you might have to give them a little time if they aren't online right now.

Cool. I saw Andro on this morning when I posted but didnt get a reply to my thread.

[cakedonkey]

In regards to the first abstract, that is in microglia which is quite a bit different than skeletal muscle. I'm sure the second one is just as irrelevant. Again, Shawn/Androgenic shall set you straight.

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Originally Posted by cakedonkey

In regards to the first abstract, that is in microglia which is quite a bit different than skeletal muscle. I'm sure the second one is just as irrelevant. Again, Shawn/Androgenic shall set you straight.

Microgalia refers to the Central nervous system so it still plays a key role.
The 2nd one clearly states Agmatine was a competitive NOS inhibitor but not an NO precursor so I am curious as to how you can find it irrelevant.

[Stonecoldtruth]

Originally Posted by Jon-Nutrabolics

Microgalia refers to the Central nervous system so it still plays a key role.

Isn't Microgalia essentially the immune system of the brain responsible for maintaining homeostasis? From my understanding is that the production of excess NO within the Microgalia is actually a BAD thing..

As the immune system of the brain, the microglial cells are responsible for maintaining homeostasis. They buffer pH, regulate the concentration of neurotransmitters, and eliminate foreign bodies from the brain.

So, with that in mind, I refer to the last sentence in your first link:

These results suggest that agmatine works to protect neurons by inhibiting the production of NO in microglia.

Your thoughts?

SCT

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Originally Posted by stonecoldtruth

Isn't Microgalia essentially the immune system of the brain responsible for maintaining homeostasis? From my understanding is that the production of excess NO within the Microgalia is actually a BAD thing..



So, with that in mind, I refer to the last sentence in your first link:

These results suggest that agmatine works to protect neurons by inhibiting the production of NO in microglia.

Your thoughts?

SCT

I am not a scientist, nor do I try to be one. I was interested in this ingredient at first, but I also take NO-products (NOZ Full-Throttle and Stamin02) so I am trying to figure out if this product/ingredient will actually inhibit nitric oxide synthase, and therefore is a waste to stack with an NO product??

[Stonecoldtruth]

Originally Posted by Jon-Nutrabolics

I am not a scientist, nor do I try to be one. I was interested in this ingredient at first, but I also take NO-products (NOZ Full-Throttle and Stamin02) so I am trying to figure out if this product/ingredient will actually inhibit nitric oxide synthase, and therefore is a waste to stack with an NO product??

I don't think any of us are scientists around here, at least not without a bro on the beginning of it. Anywho, in regards to the first study, I feel that it is unrelated. I haven't looked at the second study yet, just saw Cakedonkey respond and thought I'd chime in on the first one.

SCT

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Originally Posted by stonecoldtruth

I don't think any of us are scientists around here, at least not without a bro on the beginning of it. Anywho, in regards to the first study, I feel that it is unrelated. I haven't looked at the second study yet, just saw Cakedonkey respond and thought I'd chime in on the first one.

SCT

Cool. Thanks for the input. I think you are right about the 1st study, but I think the 2nd study holds merit, and does the guideline that this definitely is not an NO-type arginine product.

[dinoiii]

Hey guys - sorry I am by far not on this site as much as I likely should be. Currently posting at 5 others coupled with my own reality of life challenges this some time.

Joey and I actually penned an article that will be up on bb.com - written more in Layman's terms (vs. the slide show I put up over at MAN for everyone, which was HIGHLY scientific and VERY thorough). I cannot blame you for not completely taking away what I perhaps wanted you to.

Understand that there are MULTIPLE forms of NOS, and while it DOES, in effect inhibit INDUCIBLE NOS (iNOS), the same is NOT SUGGESTED AT ALL for CONSTITUTIVE NOS (cNOS). Who cares, right? Well, the rationale for inhibition is so the regulatory systems of polyamine synthesis are simply controlled.

To make this not so scientific though - as long as you take Blue Print, as suggested first thing in the AM + your arginine products (should you chose to use them) at some time later in the day), you will actually get an exagerrated response to this system.

I hope that the bottom line you take away from all of this is that NOT ALL KINDS OF NOS ARE CREATED EQUAL, and further none work in vaccuum. If you were NEVER to take an arginine product, despite how you may think polyamine synthesis pathways occur and what many ads may have you believe, you will likely get a longer-lasting pump effect from agmatine alone.


Aside: There are a couple threads over at the MAN-UP Discussion board (www.manupdb.com) in the various supplements section dealing with many questions about it that you may find useful and if you ever have a question about a MAN product and it seems like I am just taking so long to get here, you may opt to either post it over there or either grab me a link to something here over there and I will be with very shortly.



D_

[Docta J]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

If you were NEVER to take an arginine product, despite how you may think polyamine synthesis pathways occur and what many ads may have you believe, you will likely get a longer-lasting pump effect from agmatine alone.

hrmm thats interesting! I will have to give that a try sometime.

[Jon-Nutrabolics]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

If you were NEVER to take an arginine product, despite how you may think polyamine synthesis pathways occur and what many ads may have you believe, you will likely get a longer-lasting pump effect from agmatine alone.

Why is that?

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by Jon-Nutrabolics

Why is that?

Absolutely a fair question; very difficult to explain, but it is worthy of discussion if I am willing to make such outstanding claims no? Now, I said, long-lasting, not "skin-bursting" or anything of the sort [these will certainly NOT be as short-lived as those seen with arginine-based compounds].

In order to explain why this happens, we really have to hit the essential polyamine synthesis pathways at their core and couple it to the three various isoforms of NOS for a full understanding.

So, first to put us all on the same page...recall the intricate relationship of the polyamine synthesis pathways and various arginine-degradation-products.








It was this interrelationship that dictates how things are shunted in nature and where they are shunted (read: which pathway's byproducts will dictate and how half-lifes and such take on form).


We also must understand that there are multiple isoforms of NOS. NOS was first identified by Furchgott in 1980 who experimented on the aortas of Rabbits. Since then, the different forms of NO synthase have been classified as 3 different isoforms that have gained acceptance with the masses:

1. Neuronal NOS (nNOS or NOS1) which produces NO in neuronal tissue in both the central and peripheral nervous system. Neuronal NOS also performs a role in cell communication and is associated with plasma membranes.

2. Inducible NOS (iNOS or NOS2) which can be found in the immune system but is also found in the cardiovascular system. It uses the oxidative stress of NO (a free radical) to be used by macrophages in immune defence against pathogens.

3. Endothelial NOS (eNOS or NOS3 or Constitutive / cNOS) generates NO in blood vessels and is involved with regulating vascular function. A constitutive Ca2+ dependent NOS provides a basal release of NO. eNos is associated with plasma membranes surrounding cells and the membranes of Golgi bodies within cells.

* The first two are inhibited, but the constitutive or NOS that is imeperative for these processes doesn't exactly follow suit as explained in that slide show. I will re-iterate a self-made picture for visual presentation below:



Over time, the essential decreased NOS will increase NOS production (no-discerning of which type) and due to the short half-life of Agmatine mind you - this doesn't take an incredibly long time. When it does, more Arginine is hypothesized to be actually taken down the NOS pathway of degradation.

Does this make sense?




D_

[warriors]

Since Agmatine does have a short half life and one is looking to get the best performance enhancing benefits out of Blue Print wouldn't taking it pre-workout or around pre workout be more beneficial than the recommended dosage time?

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by warriors

Since Agmatine does have a short half life and one is looking to get the best performance enhancing benefits out of Blue Print wouldn't taking it pre-workout or around pre workout be more beneficial than the recommended dosage time?

This depends on many factors - food timing, alternative supplements used, et al. If looking to take advantage of the peptide-hormone release...then the idea of taking it on an empty stomach offers far more advantages if any are truly to be had. There are few times I can imagine a bodybuilder's belly empty outside of coming away from the overnight fast.

I have used up to 3 grams myself - with varying a lot of things and tying in blood glucose (glucometer) readings and lab results - full analysis to come alongside alternative things that may quench some of these types of questions. I actually had some inflammatory and glycation markers drawn yesterday (as discussed on the MAN-UP Discussion board). I will post the complete results as they become available to me; only one test was in today thus far and I'd like to wait for the complete lot.


D_

[warriors]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

This depends on many factors - food timing, alternative supplements used, et al. If looking to take advantage of the peptide-hormone release...then the idea of taking it on an empty stomach offers far more advantages if any are truly to be had. There are few times I can imagine a bodybuilder's belly empty outside of coming away from the overnight fast.

I have used up to 3 grams myself - with varying a lot of things and tying in blood glucose (glucometer) readings and lab results - full analysis to come alongside alternative things that may quench some of these types of questions. I actually had some inflammatory and glycation markers drawn yesterday (as discussed on the MAN-UP Discussion board). I will post the complete results as they become available to me; only one test was in today thus far and I'd like to wait for the complete lot.


D_

Sounds good. I have Blue Print on the way and was just wanting to get your thoughts on it around pre workout. I'll just stick with the recommended dosage time for the time being.

Joey is gonna have to give you a raise

[OxygeniX]

FIRST PART OF 3 ALL READY UP!



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon9.htm

[Brently]

Originally Posted by OxygeniX

FIRST PART OF 3 ALL READY UP!



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon9.htm

Cool!

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by OxygeniX

FIRST PART OF 3 ALL READY UP!



http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon9.htm

Not associated with us, but Joey and I will have an article up within the week.


D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by warriors

Sounds good. I have Blue Print on the way and was just wanting to get your thoughts on it around pre workout. I'll just stick with the recommended dosage time for the time being.

Joey is gonna have to give you a raise

Ok - seriously then ... all harass Joey for my raise then.




D_

[The A1pha Ma1e]

dinoiii would it be ok to stack blue print with powerfull

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Ok - seriously then ... all harass Joey for my raise then.




D_

We should make a thread so Dinoiii can get a raise.

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by The A1pha Ma1e

dinoiii would it be ok to stack blue print with powerfull

Well, first dinoiii will admit...

I am far too caught up in the science and had to review the label of Powerfull (I am assuming you mean the USP labs product?)...

Proprietary Blend: 1200mg
PureSap(tm)(100% saponis)
Muira Puama

First, I had absolutely no idea what the heck that "Pure Sap" thing is as the label perplexed me. The site suggests its a triterpene saponin from Chlorophytum borivilianum [you may more readily recognize this as Safed Musli]. Interestingly enough, there is nothing seemingly outside the world of Ayurveda that suggests efficacy. So, giving the benefit of the doubt...I continued to search.

...and found the primary suggested component to be Stigmasterol, a phytosterol. I am not sure what I expect from this particular extract as very few things have readily been suggested - one of which is the level it is incorporated to increased membrane structural component and the other as a lowering of cholesterol component (though you actually need about 2 grams to get an effective dose of this compound alone). That said, lowering cholesterol would actually seemingly kill androgen substrate to a degree in an otherwise non-hypercholesterolemic individual. But - that aside, I do NOT see any inherent interaction to be had.

Second compound, Muira Puama, I'd be interested in learning a bit more about the particular extract and such that they use as their ingredient. I mean, this is a great aphrodisiac which is through suggestion rather well-supported through the ages, but to suggest a mechanism has been readily agreed upon - namely of the GH-promoting variety is debatable. They suggest 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol) which I scratch my head on...but in the grand scheme if it is just muira puama - then so be it, few reactions have been offered that I am aware of through tox reports, et al.




NOW - IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not knocking USP labs with the above, however - they have made it a challenge for me to accurately represent what the heck is in this compound when I am asked about the darn potential for interaction. If it is Safed Musli and Muira Puama - then there shouldn't be an issue. Pure Sap and 1C - whatever...



D_

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by envythahustla

We should make a thread so Dinoiii can get a raise.

Well - as long as I can have you as my official I need a raise campaign manager - then by all means.



D_

[Elliptical Envy]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Well - as long as I can have you as my official I need a raise campaign manager - then by all means.



D_

As long as I can get 10% I'll do it.

[gswgsw]

im confused...

stack a NO pre-workout with BluePrint or not?