is it really true you need more protein cutting than bulking?

[GeneralSerpant]

We don’t consume macros. We eat food.

You cannot separate the two...

And also, your comment was specifically about foods (beans, fruits/veggies...), so why we talking about isolated macros ?

Rice, beans, fruits/veg, bread are all foods that are dominant in carbs/fiber to an almost exclusive degree. Eat any of them by themselves and the fullness or satisfaction that they provide is very short lived.

It can be very satisfying, and in the case of starch it can be substantial I think. But for the most part they make eating easier as the day goes on.

Also the comment I commented after was about protein as a macronutrient factor in satiety. I think each macronutrient affects the hunger system differently.

[AdamWW]

Rice, beans, fruits/veg, bread are all foods that are dominant in carbs/fiber to an almost exclusive degree. Eat any of them by themselves and the fullness or satisfaction that they provide is very short lived.

It can be very satisfying, and in the case of starch it can be substantial I think. But for the most part they make eating easier as the day goes on.

Also the comment I commented after was about protein as a macronutrient factor in satiety. I think each macronutrient affects the hunger system differently.

Well I feel the same way about almost any food. If I ate 300 calories of JUST white fish, or the same of Greek yogurt, I wouldn’t feel satisfied at all.

There simply is no universal way to measure this stuff. Apparently we all feel different things from foods here, because you said nuts provide more satiety than fruit/veggies, and yet I could easily down 1000 calories of mixed nuts without blinking an eye.

1000 calories of broccoli and beans and I’d be too full to move.

[Strawng]

Well I feel the same way about almost any food. If I ate 300 calories of JUST white fish, or the same of Greek yogurt, I wouldn’t feel satisfied at all.

There simply is no universal way to measure this stuff. Apparently we all feel different things from foods here, because you said nuts provide more satiety than fruit/veggies, and yet I could easily down 1000 calories of mixed nuts without blinking an eye.

1000 calories of broccoli and beans and I’d be too full to move.

This. I think if there's a fair gripe with these "satiety" arguments, its that satiety can be pretty subjective. The satiety index ranks salmon up there near the top, but I can put away thousands of calories worth of salmon, particularly if it's with rice, like nothing. I've also literally eaten over 1,000 calories of nuts before on more occasions than I can count. Broccoli on the other hand, despite being delicious, is something I've sworn off as a regular part of my diet because it bloats me to hell & I find it too satiating for the hot weather when my appetite's suppressed most days anyway. I'd literally, and I mean literally, rather saw off one of my toes than eat 1000 calories of broccoli.

[Mrpb]

Good point. Would you argue that protein is a factor in how satiating a food is, all other things being equal?

Yes I think it's a factor. One of several.

I remember you pointing me towards a fascinating argument that protein is more satiating for individuals until they hit their minimums, but then higher fiber food choices win out in terms of satiety.

I guess that's the article by Menno. It's not something I would necessarily agree with. For example: protein metabolism doesn't work on a 24 hour clock. Or did they mean enough protein per meal?

For what it's worth Menno's article has also been heavily criticised by Lyle.

Di you think the satiety index is a valid metric? I assume satiety involves food volume, water, fiber, & possibly protein content proportional to calories. Idk how solid the data is & I’ve heard many critiques.

The 1995 study that came up with the satiety index is a totally valid study. But it measured a very specific thing in a very specific context. Where it goes wrong is when people start interpreting it for other scenarios.

On a sidenote: if I could easily down 1000 kcal of salmon and white rice it doesn't necessarily mean that salmon isn't satiating.

Also that people can eat 1000 kcal of nuts doesn't necessarily mean they're not satiating.

If I ate 300 calories of JUST white fish, or the same of Greek yogurt, I wouldn’t feel satisfied at all.

That could be 500 gram of fat free Greek yogurt with 50 grams of protein. Under normal conditions I think most people will feel pretty full after that.

Perhaps you mean that you wouldn't feel very satisfied mentally, that I could understand. But as far as satiety it will rank pretty high.

[GeneralSerpant]

Yes I think it's a factor. One of several.


I guess that's the article by Menno. It's not something I would necessarily agree with. For example: protein metabolism doesn't work on a 24 hour clock. Or did they mean enough protein per meal?

For what it's worth Menno's article has also been heavily criticised by Lyle.


The 1995 study that came up with the satiety index is a totally valid study. But it measured a very specific thing in a very specific context. Where it goes wrong is when people start interpreting it for other scenarios.

On a sidenote: if I could easily down 1000 kcal of salmon and white rice it doesn't necessarily mean that salmon isn't satiating.

Also that people can eat 1000 kcal of nuts doesn't necessarily mean they're not satiating.


That could be 500 gram of fat free Greek yogurt with 50 grams of protein. Under normal conditions I think most people will feel pretty full after that.

Perhaps you mean that you wouldn't feel very satisfied mentally, that I could understand. But as far as satiety it will rank pretty high.

Not to belabor my own point, but this is all pretty consistent with my take.

Protein can be pretty darn satisfying, but it can be pretty pedestrian and often (or occasionally) doesn't necessarily reward.

Carbs pretty much always reward as far as satisfaction, and they will continuously do that as you eat them. It can be satisfying obviously, but it never stops and it's like they're exploiting a chemical reward.

The fats are the only thing that I feel might just be me. I can get pretty nauseous when nutritional fat is involved, whether by cooking or ingesting. Also with stuff like tacos/burritos, it'll have nothing but the tortilla, lose salsa, (whole/unfried) beans, and meat. The only thing I might change is whether I get pork, beef, or chicken. After it sits in my stomach for a couple minutes, the pork variation will leave me stuffed, not wanting to eat, and starts making me not want to move. Same thing with a bowl of pasta; I'll eat an entire package of spaghetti, but smother that in pesto and I'm done for the day and can't really eat anything after.

[AdamWW]

Perhaps you mean that you wouldn't feel very satisfied mentally, that I could understand. But as far as satiety it will rank pretty high.

Nope.. I’d still be hungry. I’ve done it before.

But if I added 500g I’d blackberries to it, different story.

[Mrpb]

That's why I said: I think most people will feel pretty full after that. When you're very lean many things can be different.

If they'd put this in a study I bet it will score very high on satiety.

[AdamWW]

That's why I said: I think most people will feel pretty full after that. When you're very lean many things can be different.

If they'd put this in a study I bet it will score very high on satiety.

Fun fact: I haven’t always been ‘very lean’

I’ve consumed large amounts of foods you would deem ‘satiating’ even when I had more bodyfat.

[Mrpb]

Fun fact: I haven’t always been ‘very lean’

I’ve consumed large amounts of foods you would deem ‘satiating’ even when I had more bodyfat.

I don't really want to get into your history. That wouldn't be fun for you or me.

I'll just say that I think the large majority of people will report high satiety after consuming 500 gram of Greek yogurt with 50 gram of protein. And yes outliers may exist.

[AdamWW]

I don't really want to get into your history. That wouldn't be fun for you or me.

I'll just say that I think the large majority of people will report high satiety after consuming 500 gram of Greek yogurt with 50 gram of protein. And yes outliers may exist.

Not sure what you mean... I’ve been 25% bodyfat before, I’ve been 175 and around 15% before, and I’ve been emaciated at 126lb before. I know more about my past than you do and I carry zero shame about it

Even before I ever had an eating disorder I could eat a ton of these foods.

My stance is the same: the experience of satiety is subjective.

[Mrpb]

Not sure what you mean... I’ve been 25% bodyfat before, I’ve been 175 and around 15% before, and I’ve been emaciated at 126lb before. I know more about my past than you do and I carry zero shame about it

Even before I ever had an eating disorder I could eat a ton of these foods.

Given that you're continuing the discussion anyway: I see good reasons to believe that people who were on the way to developing an ED or are recovering from one could be outliers in the whole satiety discussion.

My stance is the same: the experience of satiety is subjective.

As usual my stance is: science trumps personal anecdotes. I'd have to see research that reliably reports marked individual differences in satiety when all other factors are controlled for.

[AdamWW]

Given that you're continuing the discussion anyway: I see good reasons to believe that people who were on the way to developing an ED or are recovering from one could be outliers in the whole satiety discussion.



As usual my stance is: science trumps personal anecdotes. I'd have to see research that reliably reports marked individual differences in satiety when all other factors are controlled for.

The only issue I see with your ED comment is that, again, before I ever lost weight (as in YEARS before) I could still consume them in this amount.

Yes, on average the science for this kind of thing might trump the anecdote, but if my anecdote does not align with the science, then clearly it is not universal and not just for the reasons you mentioned.

When I was 15 I was quite chubby (2-3 years prior to any eating disorder) and there were plenty of times I could eat more grilled chicken than I could bananas or white rice.

[broganoff]

If I were able to force down an entire head of cabbage or iceberg lettuce, I'm sure I'd be feel very full. Although I wouldn't call that being satiated, and I would probably wake up in the middle of the night with hunger pangs and go straight for the jar of peanut butter. Sure, you are going to get some vitamins and minerals, however you aren't getting much in the way actual macronutrients that your body can use.

To me, being satiated implies that I feel as though I am providing my body with the actual nutrients required to function and recover. IMO it's a combination of protein, fat and fiber that make me feel the most "satiated", however that's defined. Given that "fullness" and "satisfaction" are often used to define satiety, there is a lot of overlap between all of the terms.

[GeneralSerpant]

I don't really want to get into your history. That wouldn't be fun for you or me.

I'll just say that I think the large majority of people will report high satiety after consuming 500 gram of Greek yogurt with 50 gram of protein. And yes outliers may exist.

Bananas I find to be pretty satiating despite what I've said about macros. My theory has always been that it's a matter of potassium somehow.

Potatoes have a ****load of potassium.

[Mrpb]

Look anyone can claim anything. “I don’t feel any satiety from eating 500ml of Greek yogurt with 50 gram protein”. “I’ve been testing this all my life” etc.

Personally I see personal anecdotes for what they are: just claims without anything to back it up. There could be a number of reasons why the personal anecdotes aren’t accurate. They might not have controlled their experiments properly, they might have ulterior motives, they might not correctly be measuring variables and/or they might not correctly understand some key concepts that are being discussed etc. etc.. This is why I prefer science. I can read what they tested and how they tested it.

Luckily the satiety of Greek yogurt has been studied. Here’s the conclusion from a randomised controlled trial: “An afternoon snack of Greek yogurt, containing 24 g protein, led to reduced hunger, increased fullness, and delayed subsequent eating compared to lower protein snacks in healthy women.”

The study also tested Greek yogurt with 5 and 14 gram protein. They found that the higher the protein, the greater the effects were.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23022602/

If anyone wants to take a guess how doubling the portion would affect subsequent satiety, be my guest.

[EliKoehn]

As long as anecdotes are still valid contributions to this discussion, and mine are of any worth, protein itself is far and away the most "satisfying" food, followed closely by fats.

A chicken breast plain or a can of tuna in water is fairly boring to eat and not the tastiest option, but in my own case eating even very low calorie portions of virtually straight protein goes leagues to sate hunger thereafter.

Carbs do seem to have something of a self-supported craving phenomenon in my own experience. They also don't tend to leave me feeling full for very long, whereas the same caloric portion of fat paired with a protein usually does.

[AdamWW]

Look anyone can claim anything. “I don’t feel any satiety from eating 500ml of Greek yogurt with 50 gram protein”. “I’ve been testing this all my life” etc.

Personally I see personal anecdotes for what they are: just claims without anything to back it up. There could be a number of reasons why the personal anecdotes aren’t accurate. They might not have controlled their experiments properly, they might have ulterior motives, they might not correctly be measuring variables and/or they might not correctly understand some key concepts that are being discussed etc. etc.. This is why I prefer science. I can read what they tested and how they tested it.

Luckily the satiety of Greek yogurt has been studied. Here’s the conclusion from a randomised controlled trial: “An afternoon snack of Greek yogurt, containing 24 g protein, led to reduced hunger, increased fullness, and delayed subsequent eating compared to lower protein snacks in healthy women.”

The study also tested Greek yogurt with 5 and 14 gram protein. They found that the higher the protein, the greater the effects were.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23022602/

If anyone wants to take a guess how doubling the portion would affect subsequent satiety, be my guest.

These studies are simply collections of anecdotes tho... they use ‘perceived satisfaction’ which is a nebulous concept...

We can’t just assume this is purely quantitative if the baseline measurement is by its nature a matter of personal perception.

Plus the study you linked was n=15.... so... again.. this isn’t the most compelling evidence if we’re trying to say individual or smaller groups of feedback aren’t helpful.

I’m not saying it’s not helpful, I’m saying it doesn’t prove the hypothesis beyond any reasonable doubt nor does it render personal opinion useless given the data in the study itself is based on that same loose definition of satiety.

[GeneralSerpant]

If I were able to force down an entire head of cabbage or iceberg lettuce, I'm sure I'd be feel very full. Although I wouldn't call that being satiated, and I would probably wake up in the middle of the night with hunger pangs and go straight for the jar of peanut butter. Sure, you are going to get some vitamins and minerals, however you aren't getting much in the way actual macronutrients that your body can use.

To me, being satiated implies that I feel as though I am providing my body with the actual nutrients required to function and recover. IMO it's a combination of protein, fat and fiber that make me feel the most "satiated", however that's defined. Given that "fullness" and "satisfaction" are often used to define satiety, there is a lot of overlap between all of the terms.

haha

My story concerning peanut butter satiety has to do with swimming. This is very anecdotal mind you but a toasted chunky peanut butter sandwich was tended to become the most "satiating" food I ever ate after having been in the pool for an hour or two. If our hunger is at all coordinated to the type of activity we stress our body out too, then the balance of fiber, carbs, fat, and a bit of protein might be the perfect post water rec meal.

[AdamWW]

haha

My story concerning peanut butter satiety has to do with swimming. This is very anecdotal mind you but a toasted chunky peanut butter sandwich was tended to become the most "satiating" food I ever ate after having been in the pool for an hour or two. If our hunger is at all coordinated to the type of activity we stress our body out too, then the balance of fiber, carbs, fat, and a bit of protein might be the perfect post water rec meal.

Exercise can blunt hunger too

[GeneralSerpant]

Exercise can blunt hunger too

There you go. Just str8 ****ting on my theories.

JK. I've thought about that in the past as well, but nothing's coming to mind for it.

[Strawng]

Yes I think it's a factor. One of several.


I guess that's the article by Menno. It's not something I would necessarily agree with. For example: protein metabolism doesn't work on a 24 hour clock. Or did they mean enough protein per meal?

For what it's worth Menno's article has also been heavily criticised by Lyle.


The 1995 study that came up with the satiety index is a totally valid study. But it measured a very specific thing in a very specific context. Where it goes wrong is when people start interpreting it for other scenarios.

On a sidenote: if I could easily down 1000 kcal of salmon and white rice it doesn't necessarily mean that salmon isn't satiating.

Also that people can eat 1000 kcal of nuts doesn't necessarily mean they're not satiating.


That could be 500 gram of fat free Greek yogurt with 50 grams of protein. Under normal conditions I think most people will feel pretty full after that.

Perhaps you mean that you wouldn't feel very satisfied mentally, that I could understand. But as far as satiety it will rank pretty high.

A couple months ago you shared that Menno article when I claimed protein was satiating & said you didn't necessarily agree, but I'm glad to know it's been disputed by Lyle amongst others. Its claims honestly seemed absurd to me.

As for your point about the salmon or nuts, all me and Adam are saying is that there's a subjective factor to this "satiety" thing. I'm not saying salmon and nuts aren't satiating, all I'm saying is that they're not as satiating for some people. Any one of these studies is based on subjective anecdotes in the first place. I'm not arguing that salmon isn't satiating, just that it's not nearly as satiating for me as it is other people. The same goes for Greek yogurt. I can eat tons of Greek yogurt, but give me one baked potato and I'm stuffed to the brim. For others, a bit of Greek yogurt is extremely satiating but they can eat far more potatoes. This really shouldn't be a controversial idea...

These studies are simply collections of anecdotes tho... they use ‘perceived satisfaction’ which is a nebulous concept...

We can’t just assume this is purely quantitative if the baseline measurement is by its nature a matter of personal perception.

Plus the study you linked was n=15.... so... again.. this isn’t the most compelling evidence if we’re trying to say individual or smaller groups of feedback aren’t helpful.

I’m not saying it’s not helpful, I’m saying it doesn’t prove the hypothesis beyond any reasonable doubt nor does it render personal opinion useless given the data in the study itself is based on that same loose definition of satiety.

My thoughts exactly. Sure, croissants are objectively less satiating than broccoli, but there's absolutely a grey area. I would die from starvation on keto no matter what food choices I make, but my dad can and does regularly eat thousands of calories worth of meat in a sitting. He has gained weight on Atkins and keto.

Exercise can blunt hunger too

This is yet another example. Exercise destroys my appetite. My girlfriend, on the other hand, gets ravenously hungry immediately post-exercise. You can't be completely black and white about subjective experiences like satiety or hunger levels, particularly once you start distinguishing foods on either ends of the spectrum.

[GeneralSerpant]

I think protein numbs hunger irritations as a form of satiety.

[AdamWW]

I think protein numbs hunger irritations as a form of satiety.

wut?

[GeneralSerpant]

wut?

Just the type of satisfaction I get from proteins compared to from carbs. Not quite the same feeling.

[Mrpb]

These studies are simply collections of anecdotes tho... they use ‘perceived satisfaction’ which is a nebulous concept...

I get the impression that you haven’t read the full text. If you want to criticise the study that would be a good idea.

They don't use the term ‘perceived satisfaction' at all. And when researchers collect some data through questionnaires as part of an RCT and publish them in peer reviewed scientific journals, they're not anecdotes.

What would be accurate is to say that some of the data collected was based on subjective impressions. Luckily they also included objective data, which confirmed the subjective data.

Anecdotes are completely uncontrolled, there's no lead in diet, no scientist checking the portions, just zero control. Anyone can claim anything.

Plus the study you linked was n=15.... so... again.. this isn’t the most compelling evidence.

The study used a randomized crossover design. So each participants ended up delivering 3 data points. So that's like having the statistical power of n=45.

And the fact that they found these effects to be statistically significant with this sample size speaks to the strength of the effects. Larger sample sizes tend to be necessary when the effects are weaker.

Important to realise: this isn’t the only study that supports the satiety promoting effects of high protein Greek yogurt. You can also look at the data on casein, the data on it’s digestion speed and the effect of large volumes sitting in the stomach and stretching it.

I’m not saying it’s not helpful, I’m saying it doesn’t prove the hypothesis beyond any reasonable doubt nor does it render personal opinion useless given the data in the study itself is based on that same loose definition of satiety.

Actually the study did quite a good job of defining what they measured. I suggest reading the full text if you're interested.

[Mrpb]

A couple months ago you shared that Menno article when I claimed protein was satiating & said you didn't necessarily agree

I don't think that's what happened. See: https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showt...8659001&page=1

but I'm glad to know it's been disputed by Lyle amongst others. Its claims honestly seemed absurd to me.

My suggestion would be to instead of just agreeing with Lyle, who makes many errors too just like Menno, to read the actual science. Menno references interesting papers in that article and if the claims seem absurd you may be in for a surprise.

As for your point about the salmon or nuts, all me and Adam are saying is that there's a subjective factor to this "satiety" thing. I'm not saying salmon and nuts aren't satiating, all I'm saying is that they're not as satiating for some people.

Yes and I've heard you. But what you guys don't seem to fully get is that personal anecdotes like these can be flawed because of a multitude of reasons. I'll give you one: your definition of satiety is different than most studies use. "I can eat a ton of Greek yogurt" doesn't necessarily mean it's not satiating. That's not how satiety is typically measured.

And there are several other reasons why your anecdotes don't mean what you think they mean. The lack of control is one of the most important reasons.

In order for me to believe that the individual variability in satiety is great to eating 500 ml Greek yogurt with 50 gram protein I would have to see data that shows it. Not 2 guys on the internet claiming something that isn't actually related to satiety perse.

And this is not just about one study. This is about the way casein is digested, the way it sits in the stomach and how stomach stretching influences subsequent satiety. Will there be individual variability? It's well possible. But people are still people. And I don't expect them to be immune to a large amount of food volume with a high casein content sitting in their stomach for several hours. Exception may be very large individuals.

Any one of these studies is based on subjective anecdotes in the first place.

You're probably trying to say that filling in a questionnaire is based on a subjective impression. But the process was conducted by scientists, there was a proper lead in diet and the whole process was controlled. And then the publication went through peer review process. So it's not an anecdote.

And as mentioned the study also had objective data that confirmed the subjective data.

[SubWooferCooker]

iv'e been cutting on average 100g per day sometimes as low as 80g with an 800-1000kcal deficit doing a low volume "1 set only" full body routine every other day sometimes every 2 days for a number of weeks and i have lost zero strength or any noticeable muscle what so ever. I have been lifting for around 10 years and tried every diet and every routine you can think of and never honestly never noticed a difference with any one i have ever tried. At this point in my life i am just trying to do the bare minimum i can get away with both in terms of diet and training and so far iv'e not found what that bare minimum is doing low volume, low calorie and relatively low protein at least in terms of maintaining my size and strength.