How important is increasing volume?

[maxfaria2711]

When it comes to training volume is it key to increase volume over say a 6 week cycle (so your progressively overloading when it comes to volume) even if this means starting below your maximum recoverable volume? Or would it be best to just start at the most volume you can do and stay at it? I’m just wondering wether progressive overload in volume is better or if doing more volume overall is. Also would a deload desensitise you to training to an extent where you can make gains on less volume than you were doing at the end of a/the previous training cycle? It’s just that I’m aware increasing volume over time is important but I’m not sure how this would be implemented because it surely gets to a point, as I have now, where more volume would just make the sessions too long and not possible to recover properly from.

[TAWS6]

You start with the least volume you can grow from. By the time you’re intermediate you’ll be doing 6-10 hard sets , twice per week. That’s generally the point where intensity starts to drop off if you continue to keep increasing volume. Once advanced you may even need to lower volume.

[nightanole]

"the least amount of volume possible to achieve strength gains"

You doing double the volume of your bro is not going to double your gain speed, infact its not even going to increase it 25%.

And yes total tonnage needs to increase meso to meso. If you have a beginner routine with a fixe rep and sets, the only volume increase will come from more weight, and at some point you will stall. Then you can just drop the weight, but maybe add a set, or drop the weight and increase reps. Whatever it takes to increase tonnage. And tonnage should go down drastically with intensity. doing 3x3 at 90% is going to be about the limit, but tonnage lifted at 3x8 with 65-70% is going to be multiples higher.

And yes you have figured it out that its recovery that will limit your potential. At some point the amount of volume it will take to grow, is greater than the amount of volume you can recover from.

But there are ways around a hard stall. Adding accessory work generally doesnt not increase recovery time. So you have figured out you cant just keep adding back squat volume to a fixed weight at a fixed rep, with a fixed set count. So adjust it, do 3x10 instead of 3x5, and rotate it. or add a leg press.

[anonymous]

Latest studies seem to show volume is everything, but there are so many other factors to consider

Ultimately your goal should be optimal training that minimizes injury risk and tendinopathy and joint wear so you can train until your old age.

[William2018]

Body energy is a valuable resource. Use it well. You don't want to deplete your energy when you need it most and tire out on the last set because of high volume. I've seen quite a few gym goers put on far too much volume and burn themselves out. They end up doing a very sloppy final set as they lose their grip control and posture and they end up engaging other muscles to complete the final set. Better to increase the weight and lower the volume as you advance. That way you can maintain control of the weight, fully engage the targeted muscles, and complete and surpass the final set. Although I admit I do prefer high volume when working smaller muscle groups like the delts.

[Grizvok]

Body energy is a valuable resource. Use it well. You don't want to deplete your energy when you need it most and tire out on the last set because of high volume. I've seen quite a few gym goers put on far too much volume and burn themselves out. They end up doing a very sloppy final set as they lose their grip control and posture and they end up engaging other muscles to complete the final set. Better to increase the weight and lower the volume as you advance. That way you can maintain control of the weight, fully engage the targeted muscles, and complete and surpass the final set. Although I admit I do prefer high volume when working smaller muscle groups like the delts.

Many knowledgeable coaches say pyramiding sucks (reverse pyramiding is better), and do the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. I’d probably trust them over you.

[FurtadoZ9]

Depends on what we are training for, size strength ect.

Ultimately what does happen is volume and intensity both are increasing in the intermediate stages. As advanced and beyond is reached, periodization becomes very real and volume begins to plateau and decrease overall. Or rather, the volume is less evenly distributed (dedicated days / cycles).

Again, dependent on ultimate goal, individual response, ect.

To answer your question, yes you want to begin below your recovery threshold and ramp up. The additional weight or sets / reps once peak is reached is your progressive overload.

As far as having a temporary dip in performance coming off a deload depends how your load / recovery was before the deload began.

[SuffolkPunch]

You will adapt over time. Increasing volume is a key method of continuing to provide a stimulus.

It's worth mentioning that not all volume is created equal. Many people could be doing a lot less sets if they put more effort into each set. Ask yourself "if someone held a gun to my head and told me to do 3 more reps, could I?"

[William2018]

Many knowledgeable coaches say pyramiding sucks (reverse pyramiding is better), and do the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. I’d probably trust them over you.

Well the coaches I have spoken to here in Ireland (many of them are heavily built for Irish football and rugby) say that adding too much volume can stall growth. Adding a significant amount of volume is fine if the OP wants to lose fat and build lean muscle, but your body will eventually adapt and become accustomed to high volume. It depends really on what the OP refers to as high volume e.g. 20+ reps or 40+ reps etc. More weight is essential to growth. You don't want to burn out of calories as you approach the final set and not have the energy to finish and surpass the final set due to very high volume. e.g. Which is better - Increasing your reps and sets too much and burn out and lose stability as you approach the final set, or gradually decreasing the volume (maintaining a small surplus) while significantly increasing the weight. When you want to finish and surpass the final set and fail to, the reason will either be:

You did not have the strength to make it (too much weight)
You did not have the energy to make it. (too much volume)



At my local gym there is a progress chart. From memory it looks like this.

[nightanole]

Well the coaches I have spoken to here in Ireland (many of them are heavily built for Irish football and rugby) say that adding too much volume can stall growth. Adding a significant amount of volume is fine if the OP wants to lose fat and build lean muscle, but your body will eventually adapt and become accustomed to high volume. It depends really on what the OP refers to as high volume e.g. 20+ reps or 40+ reps etc. More weight is essential to growth. You don't want to burn out of calories as you approach the final set and not have the energy to advance due to very high volume. e.g. Which is better - Increasing your reps and sets and burn out and lose stability as you approach the final set, or gradually decreasing the volume (maintaining a small surplus) while significantly increasing the weight. When you want to finish and surpass the final set and fail to, do you want the reason to be:

You did not have the strength to make it (too much weight)
You did not have the energy to make it. (too much volume)



At my local gym there is a progress chart. From memory it looks like this.

I think grizvok is thinking you are doing changing weight during the workout. I think you are changing weight in the meso cycle. This is because in your original response you described your progression pattern like a stock pyramid set.

[etet1919]

You will adapt over time. Increasing volume is a key method of continuing to provide a stimulus.

It's worth mentioning that not all volume is created equal. Many people could be doing a lot less sets if they put more effort into each set. Ask yourself "if someone held a gun to my head and told me to do 3 more reps, could I?"

Now this is a coach... A Suffolk Punch trainer with horsepower

[SuffolkPunch]

Now this is a coach... A Suffolk Punch trainer with horsepower

I'm flattered

But I wasn't so flattered when my daughter went out and bought a training plan off some youtube coach instead of asking me

Luckily she's a smart girl (Chemistry major) so she'd chosen an evidence based practitioner who seems to be making very sensible suggestions...

[William2018]

I think grizvok is thinking you are doing changing weight during the workout. I think you are changing weight in the meso cycle. This is because in your original response you described your progression pattern like a stock pyramid set.

I was thinking of a long-term workout plan lasting over several years following an adaptive 6 week cycle that would be continually repeated throughout the year, as the OP had asked - 'Is it key to increase volume over say a 6 week cycle'. I would focus on volume at the start (first 2 cycles) in order to activate dorment muscles, adapt a stronger mind-to-muscle connection, and allow for a steady increase in stimulus to avoid injury, but the body will eventually adapt to the point that high volume no longer proves challenging, and simply becomes exhausting and a waste of valuable energy which ultimately causes a loss of control and stability in the final set to hit the targeted muscles, and we end up seeing lifters swinging their arms instead of lifting, and twisting their bodies in all manner of positions as they reluctantly use other muscles to finish the final set. I believe maintaining focus and control is key and using energy when it is needed most. e.g. If the OP is not eating a high enough calorie surplus and is seeking to increase muscle, then heavily increasing the volume can be counterproductive.

[etet1919]

I'm flattered

But I wasn't so flattered when my daughter went out and bought a training plan off some youtube coach instead of asking me

Luckily she's a smart girl (Chemistry major) so she'd chosen an evidence based practitioner who seems to be making very sensible suggestions...

I'm sure her dad is a very big source of inspiration and support for her, no matter what program she chooses. So, no worries. It's great you can be such a big part of her life! No surprises concerning intelligence genes, either!

[John Prophet]

6 weeks is nothing. Better to make a year plan or similar. If u take the phrase "progressive overload".....the key word is "progressive"...like, increasing GRADUALLY over time


Obviously you are touting the Mike Israetel ideology (MRV etc). Nothing wrong with it but guys were getting huge way before Mike was born etc.


Nothing personal but I highly doubt you are at the point where u cant recover. Do you care to put an actual number on the amount? if you are "tapped out" then u should have at LEAST 17" arms if u have average genetics. of course, intensity comes into play also...so if u r going to failure a lot then, yes, maybe you have to limit the number of sets. Again, nothing personal but most folks simply dont work that hard

if u want to be a low volume guy its your business, but if u choose that route you also choose the route of either high intensity or high frequency (for instance 5-6 sets per bodypart per workout but done 3x per week etc). if you are going to try to get by on 6 total sets per week then they pretty much have to be ball busters

The Mike Israetel stuff is somewhat based around the idea of training about 10-12 hard weeks then doing something like a 6 week maintenance phase for resensitization. So the volume and fatigue gradually build over the course of the 12 weeks etc. We are probably talking 5 weeks plus deload then 5 weeks plus deload. If you are pushing pretty hard, then the 10th and 11th week are going to feel pretty difficult. If thats what u mean but "I cant recover"..yeah, thats what the resensitization maintenance phase is for.

Im no expert on HST but I think it uses a similar "strategic deconditioning" phase etc


Personally I think these are probably great ways to train for intermediate/advanced lifters but maybe not quite needed for beginners or low intermediates. In any case I think "work hard for a while then back off for a while" is a great basic concept for all of us

[sooby]

increasing volume is important, over time, but what many beginners tend to not realize and overlook is the quality of each set.

Each set should come within a few reps of failure with good form in general and adequate rest should be used in order to perform the next set with that same quality. If you are a beginner doing 30+ sets every session, you may want to take an honest look at how hard you are pushing each set, in terms of RIR. Chances are you're probably leaving a lot more reps than you should on the table. Or are doing a bunch of exercises that you probably have no business doing and are better off putting that extra energy into something that is probably more beneficial for you.

as far as programming goes, a volume ramping approach is one approach, but you can mix and match other variables as well. When you first start a program, you probably don't want to start off with 20 sets right off the bat, especially if your body is not used to it. The same way you wouldn't advise somebody who's been doing 6 months of rehab on an ACL injury to sprint without first being able to put weight on the knee, then walk, etc. Start off a bit conservative and work your way from there. Another way you can approach things is using an RIR based approach where 1 week you can start off with 4 reps from failure, week 2, 3 reps, etc. Or intensity based approach where you gradually increase the weight on the bar. Most programs will mix and match these things.