*** Androgenic Reviews Biogenetix And The "deca Esters"! ***

[Androgenic]

Chris/Gym God PM'd discussing the validity/efficacy of the decanoate esters. So I decided to turn it in to full blown review as the Biogenetix products are becoming more visible and even had a booth at the Arnold. Let's start of by using the term "deca ester" sure sounds good to the newbie...much like using Test-, -bol, -drol,-strol, or even the classics like "extreme", "X-treme", "hardcore", "ultra", etc.

Back to decanoate. It is an ester that Test or Deca (hence its name...from the nandralone) can be bound to. With test, I talked to Bill Llewelyn last weekend and he stated Cypionate or Enanthate are the best forms for efficacy.

Most steroids are bound to propionate, enanthate, decanoate, cypionate, etc. These slow down the quick release steroids like test. susp. or winstrol that require more frequent injections. Some other IM injection drugs use these esters such as Haldol (psychoactive) or Prolixin (psychoactive).

Decanoic acid is a carboxylic acid (carboxyl group, polar, forms hydrogen bonds with each other, reacts with bases)...when a salt or ester (organic compound in which an organic group replaces the hydrogen in a hydroxyl group) is made it is then called decanoate. Esters are similar to salts except with a general salt it is a cation (+) and anion (-) union. Esters are present all through nature and most of the smells you know from fruits, plants, etc. are the ester molecules.

Now, the question of Creatine bonded to "deca" or other amino acids has been asked, due to the marketing of a company carried by (and I believe owned by GNC)...Biogenetix.

Originally Posted by biogenetix

AMERICA'S STRONGEST FAT BURNER? utilizes the very latest in thermogenic technology. Bioburn-D2T?'s incredibly potent formulation packs the punch that only binding the decanoate ester to tyrosine could hit you with. Its exclusive ingredients are delivered throughout the day, and their bioavailabilty is significantly upgraded via its exclusive pharmaceutical drug delivery system.

Pharmaceutical drug delivery system? Right.

Originally Posted by biogenetix

NO-D2T? is America's strongest nitric oxide, bonding arginine to the decanoate ester is how this heavy duty formula delivers a steady supply of nitric oxide (NO) to your system throughout the day to unleash the power of increased pumps and rapid recovery. There's never been another NO supplement that nardnesses the power of science for such awesome results.*

BTW, what is nardnesses?

Originally Posted by biogenetix

Only Creatine-D2T?, America's strongest creatine?, utilizes a triple-release technology consisting of an immediate, intermediate and sustained release component to facilitate rapid muscle growth. This process is achieved by bonding a decanoate ester to creatine. With Creatine-D2T?, you'll build more muscle and gain more strength in less time.*

Now, since more than half of the molecular weight is in fact the decanoate ester and not the creatine...you'd have to hope that this form is more than 2x as effective (and that doesn't factor in cost at all...CM can just be dosed higher for pennies). So, is it more effective. Well, the ester makes it lipophilic (use van de Walls forces and basically its means "likes fat"). Therefore, this specific ester has a longer half-life endogenously due to it being attracted to the fatty tissue/adipose.

OK, now you may be thinking its a long acting form of arginine, creatine, or tyrosine. Although, this is a point worth discussing. Is that even what you desire? The longer acting it is, the more (dramatically more) would need to be dosed to ellicit an acute response such as NO type effects. Besides that issue, if long-acting is what you desire...here's the kicker...

Decanoate is meant to be injected. All the data I have presented is as such. It is fully illogical to extrapolate those chemical properties of IM medications and steroids to creatine and amino acids take orally. Further, creatine and amino acids have great absorption rates (depending on the scenario endogenously). It's value is poor, its science is worse. You will have to use more than twice as much to get the same effect as creatine monohydrate or Arginine HCl or Tyrosine HCl.

Stupid. You betcha. Wait, it gets better. Besides overpaying for oil cans with half as potent pills there's safety issues.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Decanoic_Acid-9923668
Here's the MSDS on decanoic acid a.k.a capric acid (not bonded, but then it does become unbonded internally, breaking apart from the creatine, arginine or tyrosine)...so I am unsure as to how much of an issue this is. Further, the MSDS is talking about the acid as a liquid. Nonetheless, it lists it as hazardous to skin, eye, inhalation and ingestion. It says it has proven carcinogenic effects? Hmm.

The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of the tested animal) is 3-4g/kg or 300-400g. That's extrapolated and not converted for metabolic differences. So, huh, again. This would equate to less than 1kg of creatine decanoate.

I've had trouble finding any of the IM esters toxicity/safety data to extrapolate the comsumption of the bound salt. Nevertheless, he we stand.

Why would you use this product at all?

Its rhetorical and deeply sarcastic. Bottom line don't use this garbage and be offended that these companies continue to try and scam you.

[Elliptical Envy]

Androgenic for MOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[geekgod]

always droppin the knowledge with wit nice work!

[Docta J]

You're my hero :P lol but seriously, nicely done andro!

[dtrain13]

Originally Posted by envythahustla

Androgenic for MOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Feck that, PRESIDENT!!!!



BTW don;t know about the GNC thing but I've heard some talk of NXLabs...

[cakedonkey]

So I guess the aforementioned data applies to Deca Stack (Nutrabolics) as well...

Thanks for the info Shawn as per usual. Must feel nice debunking all the blatant BS on the market.

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by dtrain13

Feck that, PRESIDENT!!!!



BTW don;t know about the GNC thing but I've heard some talk of NXLabs...

You're 100% right. I couldn't remember it. Nx Labs is tightly tied in to GNC. So in a way we're both right. Thanks, that escaped me. I was just told that a week ago too.

[Androgenic]

[Gym God]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

You're 100% right. I couldn't remember it. Nx Labs is tightly tied in to GNC. So in a way we're both right. Thanks, that escaped me. I was just told that a week ago too.

I am glad you caught that.

Thanks for the great information.

[5Six]

This is very interesting. Thank you.

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

Chris/Gym God PM'd discussing the validity/efficacy of the decanoate esters. So I decided to turn it in to full blown review as the Biogenetix products are becoming more visible and even had a booth at the Arnold. Let's start of by using the term "deca ester" sure sounds good to the newbie...much like using Test-, -bol, -drol,-strol, or even the classics like "extreme", "X-treme", "hardcore", "ultra", etc.

Back to decanoate. It is an ester that Test or Deca (hence its name...from the nandralone) can be bound to. With test, I talked to Bill Llewelyn last weekend and he stated Cypionate or Enanthate are the best forms for efficacy.

Most steroids are bound to propionate, enanthate, decanoate, cypionate, etc. These slow down the quick release steroids like test. susp. or winstrol that require more frequent injections. Some other IM injection drugs use these esters such as Haldol (psychoactive) or Prolixin (psychoactive).

Decanoic acid is a carboxylic acid (carboxyl group, polar, forms hydrogen bonds with each other, reacts with bases)...when a salt or ester (organic compound in which an organic group replaces the hydrogen in a hydroxyl group) is made it is then called decanoate. Esters are similar to salts except with a general salt it is a cation (+) and anion (-) union. Esters are present all through nature and most of the smells you know from fruits, plants, etc. are the ester molecules.

Now, the question of Creatine bonded to "deca" or other amino acids has been asked, due to the marketing of a company carried by (and I believe owned by GNC)...Biogenetix.



Pharmaceutical drug delivery system? Right.


BTW, what is nardnesses?



Now, since more than half of the molecular weight is in fact the decanoate ester and not the creatine...you'd have to hope that this form is more than 2x as effective (and that doesn't factor in cost at all...CM can just be dosed higher for pennies). So, is it more effective. Well, the ester makes it lipophilic (use van de Walls forces and basically its means "likes fat"). Therefore, this specific ester has a longer half-life endogenously due to it being attracted to the fatty tissue/adipose.

OK, now you may be thinking its a long acting form of arginine, creatine, or tyrosine. Although, this is a point worth discussing. Is that even what you desire? The longer acting it is, the more (dramatically more) would need to be dosed to ellicit an acute response such as NO type effects. Besides that issue, if long-acting is what you desire...here's the kicker...

Decanoate is meant to be injected. All the data I have presented is as such. It is fully illogical to extrapolate those chemical properties of IM medications and steroids to creatine and amino acids take orally. Further, creatine and amino acids have great absorption rates (depending on the scenario endogenously). It's value is poor, its science is worse. You will have to use more than twice as much to get the same effect as creatine monohydrate or Arginine HCl or Tyrosine HCl.

Stupid. You betcha. Wait, it gets better. Besides overpaying for oil cans with half as potent pills there's safety issues.

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Decanoic_Acid-9923668
Here's the MSDS on decanoic acid a.k.a capric acid (not bonded, but then it does become unbonded internally, breaking apart from the creatine, arginine or tyrosine)...so I am unsure as to how much of an issue this is. Further, the MSDS is talking about the acid as a liquid. Nonetheless, it lists it as hazardous to skin, eye, inhalation and ingestion. It says it has proven carcinogenic effects? Hmm.

The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of the tested animal) is 3-4g/kg or 300-400g. That's extrapolated and not converted for metabolic differences. So, huh, again. This would equate to less than 1kg of creatine decanoate.

I've had trouble finding any of the IM esters toxicity/safety data to extrapolate the comsumption of the bound salt. Nevertheless, he we stand.

Why would you use this product at all?

Its rhetorical and deeply sarcastic. Bottom line don't use this garbage and be offended that these companies continue to try and scam you.

I'm not passing judgement on the product but I would predict that creatine decanoate would most likely be expensive as well as an oily liquid. I do not see how this could be a powdered capsule or tablet or a powder-into-juice/water product at all.

I can't see creatine decanoate going into solution at all using a water based solvent. You could argue an undecanoate ester or one of the enol ethers is a "pharmaceutical delivery system" for oral steroids (Andriol, Anabolikum Vister) but I have never seen "decanoate" used for an ORAL delivery system.

For sure it has been used for IM/depot delivery though.

Might be cool with an MCT type thing or mixed with AA/CLA or some other oil (would taste like crap)...I am not seeing this "doable" in any other manner though.

[5Six]

Okay, so besides Nx-Labs being closely tied with how else does it have a part in this? Perhaps I missed it?!

[Kohen_Gadol]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

You're 100% right. I couldn't remember it. Nx Labs is tightly tied in to GNC. So in a way we're both right. Thanks, that escaped me. I was just told that a week ago too.

Not quite. NxLabs (used to be NxCare) is sort of a spin off from Muscletech. Two brothers whom I think used to work at MT spun off a company from MT. Biogenetix is a spin off/subsidiary or something like that of NxLabs.

The only stuff of their's I have seen is Plasmavol. It certainly does contain an bit of mannitol now doesn't it?

I think they are doing pretty good in GNC (NxLabs and Biogenetix) and since I have a very good idea who packs out for them, I can tell you the quality of the ingredients are obviously there (I will not comment on efficacy or safety).

BK

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

I'm not passing judgement on the product but I would predict that creatine decanoate would most likely be expensive as well as an oily liquid. I do not see how this could be a powdered capsule or tablet or a powder-into-juice/water product at all.

I can't see creatine decanoate going into solution at all using a water based solvent. You could argue an undecanoate ester or one of the enol ethers is a "pharmaceutical delivery system" for oral steroids (Andriol, Anabolikum Vister) but I have never seen "decanoate" used for an ORAL delivery system.

For sure it has been used for IM/depot delivery though.

Might be cool with an MCT type thing or mixed with AA/CLA or some other oil (would taste like crap)...I am not seeing this "doable" in any other manner though.

Absolutely agreed. About the present delivery and potential delivery that has some sort of viable logic. Excellent point, expounding the lipophilic nature of the chemical structure.

And let me say, uggh, about missing the UFC thing with you guys. Bruce it was a pleasure getting up with you this past weekend and I'll get back to you about some of things we discussed. Hey, did that picture of you and PA ever turn up online?

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Not quite. NxLabs (used to be NxCare) is sort of a spin off from Muscletech. Two brothers whom I think used to work at MT spun off a company from MT. Biogenetix is a spin off/subsidiary or something like that of NxLabs.

The only stuff of their's I have seen is Plasmavol. It certainly does contain an bit of mannitol now doesn't it?

I think they are doing pretty good in GNC (NxLabs and Biogenetix) and since I have a very good idea who packs out for them, I can tell you the quality of the ingredients are obviously there (I will not comment on efficacy or safety).

BK

Borat would say...Nice. I got ya...all on the sly.

What do you think about megadosing mannitol? Sugar alcohols do the GI system wonders don't they?

[5Six]

Originally Posted by Kohen_Gadol

Not quite. NxLabs (used to be NxCare) is sort of a spin off from Muscletech. Two brothers whom I think used to work at MT spun off a company from MT. Biogenetix is a spin off/subsidiary or something like that of NxLabs.

The only stuff of their's I have seen is Plasmavol. It certainly does contain an bit of mannitol now doesn't it?

I think they are doing pretty good in GNC (NxLabs and Biogenetix) and since I have a very good idea who packs out for them, I can tell you the quality of the ingredients are obviously there (I will not comment on efficacy or safety).

BK

Thanks for the clarifcation.

It seriously baffles me how someone could give into this. Especially if you have a bit of biochemistry under your belt. Hell, even a basic knowledge of AAS.

Binding a creatine, arginine or tyrosine to a lipophilic molecule just does not make sense. For oh so many reasons.

How fast of acting of ester is decanoate esters? Is it anything like enanthate in that it takes time to "kick in", around 4 - 6 weeks?

[italionstallion]

Originally Posted by 5-6

How fast of acting of ester is decanoate esters? Is it anything like enanthate in that it takes time to "kick in", around 4 - 6 weeks?

Exactly what I was wondering.

[Androgenic]

Other products that use this hype-filled ester. And why not for companies that abused the useless ethyl ester amino acids (I actually think very little of the CEE as well...FYI). Biogenetix, Nutrabolics, and Fizogen. Only the best and most trusted names in the business would resort to this breakthough in "ester technology" designed for an injection, oral balanced for a man. (A little play on the "Secret deodorant").

So without further adieu:

Originally Posted by fizogen

Fizogen Ester-BOL, 210 Capsules

Oil-Based Anabolics For Enhance Pumps, Vascularity And Anabolic Activity Quickly!
Part of new, explosive 2-part oil-based decanoate stack from Fizogen, ESTER-BOL is used as a foundation pump product to help explode size, pumps and strength to new levels! ESTER-BOL is taken 3 times daily and may also be used as a post-workout supplement! Check out the information below about the amazing technologies this product contains, all in a cutting-edge oil based capsule for maximum delivery and effectivness.

2,3 Dianolone Ester (Anabolic Mass Matrix)
By combining decanoic acid and creatine through a revolutionary process, the fast acting super ergogenic agent called creatine decanoate is born! This powerful and high-tech blend of substrates, including creatine decanoate, and three additional patent pending anabolic amino acid esters, is sure to explode results to a whole new level. Rapid delivery in Fizogen's oil-based delivery system mimics popular pharmaceutical anabolics, yet is in an oral form.

Originally Posted by nutrabolics

Deca Stack Proprietary Blend 19g

Anabolic Deca Matrix:
Arginine Decanoate
Creatine Decanoate
Glutamine Decanoate

Advanced Insulinotropic Matrix:
bis(picolinato)oxovanadium (BPOV)
Potassium-R-Lipoate (K-R-ALA)
Cinnamon Extract containing 0.95% Trim & Tetra A-Type Polymers

Advanced Neurogizing Matrix:
Thiamine Tetrahydrofurfuryl
L-Tyrosine Decanoate
Caffeine Malate


Advanced Power, Strength & Endurance Matrix:
Glycerol Monostearate
2-aminoethanesulfonic acid
Methylguanidinoacetic Acid

The advertisement for "THE DECA STACK"...awesome marketing. By awesome I mean shameless.

[in10city]

LOL... "Besides overpaying for oil cans"

Why not use an enteric delivery sytem? Cost or absorption location?

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by in10city

LOL... "Besides overpaying for oil cans"

Why not use an enteric delivery sytem? Cost or absorption location?

A buffer accomplish this well enough. Cost would be an issue with what you propose. The products that did effeverescent creatine were excellent for that and I am unsure as to why they didn't stay on the market. Kre-Alkalyn is buffered and any products that use phosphates in a creatine formulation would be advantageous as well.

CEE is not a good product. For many reasons. I like to call it creatinine ethyl ester. Hype reinforces more hype. Even PA thought the bonding of EE to aminos was absolutely moronic. And yet...its out there. And people buy it. And some have built their entire product lines on it.

The new hype appears to be "DECA"...I wonder why? Deca...ester...schwing!!!!!! Two buzzwords..YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh who cares if its a waste of money, unsafe, or wholly unethical. IT SELLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If only we could use more words that are buzzwords...like "stack" and then list some weird chemical down below like: Methylguanidinoacetic Acid...

KNOW WHAT THAT IS ?????????????

Creatine kiddies! Yes in nearly every breakthrough ester product there is creatine monhydrate or another creatine salt that is legitimate. Why do that if CEE or C-Deca is so superior...ummmmmmmmm

BECAUSE ITS NOT. That's why and that's all the proof you need.

BAM.

[deserusan]

So would this give you Ester Dick? I 've heard of Deca Dick and that just sounds like bad news.

[smh31]

here is a thread i made about creatine deconate a while ago
give it a look

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=972577

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by smh31

here is a thread i made about creatine deconate a while ago
give it a look

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=972577

Good job! You hit on some of the stuff I discussed. Excellent research and good conclusion. I love to see someone digging for answers themselves. Don't buy in to marketing and look up studies, articles and use this board. Reps.

[Androgenic]

OOPS! There's more. Apparently its the junk fad garbage product of the year!

Kilo Sports C4...Its the Bomb!!!!
http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/kilo/c4.html

Proprietary Blend: 2000mg
Creatine Methyl Ester
Creatine Ethyl Ester
Creatine Gluconate
Creatine Decanoate

I like the Methyl Ester...that one is clearly toxic. As the Guinness guys say....

Back to Fizogen, genius behind the Strap (stacked with the Cup its incredible)!

Originally Posted by fizogen

Fizogen XPLO-BOL 210 Caps XPLO-BOL
This breakthrough product is the most fast acting and intense pre-workout product on the market! By utilizing an incredible oil-based decanoate delivery system your workouts will explode with intensity. PUMPS, STRENGTH, SIZE and INTENSITY are guaranteed to be at all time highs! Be sure to stack this incredible product with ESTER-BOL and part of a stack! Check out the information below to learn more about how the ingredients in this product make it so incredibly effective!

METHYLXOBOL (Anabolic Pump Expansion Blend)
By combining both arginine decanoate and creatine decanoate and multiple patent pending esterified amino acid substrates, METHYLXOBOL provides unmatched levels of vaso-muscular expansion! Delivered as an oil-based oral, users claim to feel every contraction very deeply and notice incredible PUMPS shortly into training! Strength and size almost immediately appear radically increased as well as extreme roadmap-like vascularity!

XO-DROL (Extreme Neuro Stimulant Complex)
This intensity increasing ingredient will ignite workouts into a furnace like firey rage! XO-DROL Includes a designer combination of EXTREME neurostimulants designed to enable users will unleash all of their inner fury in training! Nothing on the market will get you more AMPED UP... guaranteed!

XO-BOLIN (Base Volumizing Blend)
This base is utilizes to help balance the formula with long acting delivery through longer acting delivery. By helping to prolong the effects of this formula, users can expect consistent gains, continual pumps and extreme size.

OMG...I gotta use this stuff...it all sounds like steroids, costs more than steroids and is more harmful than steroids without any of the gains...but thank goodness its legal!

[nni]

nyce!

[in10city]

Don't worry, it will be pass? like AAKG is to AAKG w/ ACTINOS is

[lionelxxl]

Originally Posted by Androgenic

CEE is not a good product. For many reasons. I like to call it creatinine ethyl ester. Hype reinforces more hype. Even PA thought the bonding of EE to aminos was absolutely moronic. And yet...its out there. And people buy it. And some have built their entire product lines on it.

Is CEE really junk? No comparison vs creatine mono?

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by nni

nyce!

Verr nyce!

[deserusan]

Originally Posted by lionelxxl

Is CEE really junk? No comparison vs creatine mono?

It wasn't awarded a patent due to toxicity concerns that were never addressed. It degrades into creatinine by a large percentage immediately in water. What percentage of the body is water?

[Androgenic]

Originally Posted by lionelxxl

Is CEE really junk? No comparison vs creatine mono?

I don't want to pursue all that in this thread. I've hit on it before. I'll post this below, but if any wants to respond PM me. I fear this arguement will be heated when the Creatine Decanoate hype machine gets churning full steam. Here we go!

Originally Posted by androgenic

I've stated repeatedly...THEY ALL WORK. And CM works and is the most well studied and that there are ways to do a homebrew to replicate some of how Kre-Alkalyn or the buffered,effervescent creatines work. I have no stake in it. And I actually sell a competing brand and didn't pimp that here. Of all the creatines, I stated CEE makes the least sense as it doesn't have a helpful substrate (Magnesium, citrate...TCA cycle...mentioned above, malic acid, phosphate, orotic acid, etc.). All of which have either synergistic benefit or additional ergogenic benefit. CM works fine, has the most studies and is the cheapest. Go with that. CEE has more inherent risk than any other form....again, not drastic, nothing horrifying, but over time...much the GPA/GCC stuff that was brought up on this board. Why was the confirmational bias ironic? The placebo effect, the marketing bias...the greatest hype involving a supplement since HMB...the difference is this one works...all people "feel" or "notice" creatine...the bloat actually sells products, much like the pumps for NO products. Does CEE meet that hype or even approach it for 10x the absoroption...no. Period. Many people do use the exact same amount as CM, 5g. Some say 3g works...the same amount used in the study with CM, that showed full tissue saturation at 28d out. The hype reinforced itself with PA starting it and his reverence (I like many of his products) and further cemented its status not with studies, but more hype...PA didn't have a patent, and everyone came out with the "hot thing"...this carried over to aminos...purely on hype not science...aminos that are ethyl esters is so illogical. How illogical? As I said the hype machines that are VPX and BSN include other creatines and other forms of the aminos. This says a lot. If it was the most superior form and works how it should they wouldn't do this. Period. The doses for aminos could be 10x less, like the creatine...they still put this in ads. It is not true. The ethyl ester hype is unparalleled in the industry and let's talk about bias. Based on what science? What studies? What real world data? No one is using 500mg doses of CEE or 200mg doses of AEE. The biochemistry that has been explained is not even accurate. PA is a chemist and not a biochemist. Nearly everyone not selling it has questioned it. But the money is too good. I chose MAN because Joey has forgone the easy buck with prohormones, ethyl esters, and taste good/worthless products to deliver study-based products and compounds in the correct doses. It isn't glorious, there isn't much hype, but they work and they are safe. We've discussed CEE, but we both feel the same way it is not worth it. I am seeing more companies do proprietary blends with other forms of aminos or creatines or even switching off CEE completely. As I said this hype train is coming to an end eventually. Bottom line it works. Is it light years better than any other forms...no, not at all.