Evidence is mounting that citrulline malate is ineffective as an ergogenic supplement

[Madevilz]

https://www.********.com/brad.schoen...16207249474977
Link to study: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-018-0245-8

Citrulline malate supplementation is purported to improve exercise performance and improve recovery. The findings of this investigation failed to support this claim. Previous studies however have managed to find positive effects of CM supplementation on athletic performance, although this may be limited to high intensity anaerobic resistance training [17, 18]. The ability of CM to increase arginine and potentially influence NOS, ammonia clearance may remain valid, however the recent inconsistent findings in the literature suggest CM ability to influence the aforementioned factors may not result in marked improvements for performance. Although the present investigation adds evidence to the body of literature on CM, further trials are required to test the efficacy of CM supplementation in both acute and loading trials.

As Alan Aragon commented... Poor CM, started off so strong...

[OT2000]

Also shows that bulk powders is crap...


I would gander that results would be different with an actual efficacious dose citrulline around the 6-10g mark.

[BenBlue]

welp

the thing about the "ergogenic aids" we look for in our pwo's, is that even if they do have a positive effect on our training sessions, the effect is extremely minimal at best. Is a good dose of citrulline really gonna be the make or break for me when I train? Or is it my rest, nutrition and programming?

Love pwo's, but I think it's the focus and energy from a stim hit that has the most profound effect, not the citrulline and other NO enhancers.

[Madevilz]

Love pwo's, but I think it's the focus and energy from a stim hit that has the most profound effect, not the citrulline and other NO enhancers.

100% with you on this.

[OT2000]

Wait, so reading through the study more, this was done 3 sessions, 7 days aparteach time? So no consistency in daily citrulline supplementation? I thought citrulline required daily supplement use for performance impacts around the 5-7 day mark? I could swear I have read that somewhere.

[BenBlue]

Wait, so reading through the study more, this was done 3 sessions, 7 days aparteach time? So no consistency in daily citrulline supplementation? I thought citrulline required daily supplement use for performance impacts around the 5-7 day mark? I could swear I have read that somewhere.

Don't recall that, but certainly might be the case...

[OT2000]

Don't recall that, but certainly might be the case...

I could be wrong but I swear I read that about it being a necessity for daily use. Maybe from Layne or somebody I don’t recall and once again I could be wrong.

[Madevilz]

I could be wrong but I swear I read that about it being a necessity for daily use. Maybe from Layne or somebody I don’t recall and once again I could be wrong.

Never heard or read about CM requiring a build up.

[eatyourspinach]

welp

the thing about the "ergogenic aids" we look for in our pwo's, is that even if they do have a positive effect on our training sessions, the effect is extremely minimal at best. Is a good dose of citrulline really gonna be the make or break for me when I train? Or is it my rest, nutrition and programming?

Love pwo's, but I think it's the focus and energy from a stim hit that has the most profound effect, not the citrulline and other NO enhancers.

100% with you on this.

Agree with the impact being minimal but just to play devil's advocate there is still evidence that nitrates could be beneficial

[TheFugitive]

Do you notice an increase in blood flow with higher doses of CM? I thought so So lets put this thread to sleep along with the ridiculous claims made by people that refuse to train

[poison]

welp

the thing about the "ergogenic aids" we look for in our pwo's, is that even if they do have a positive effect on our training sessions, the effect is extremely minimal at best. Is a good dose of citrulline really gonna be the make or break for me when I train? Or is it my rest, nutrition and programming?

Love pwo's, but I think it's the focus and energy from a stim hit that has the most profound effect, not the citrulline and other NO enhancers.

That's a horrible path with quickly decreasing returns. And I'm not buying that citrulline is ineffective, need more research on trained athletes.

[BenBlue]

Agree with the impact being minimal but just to play devil's advocate there is still evidence that nitrates could be beneficial

Sure. Not saying nitrates, CM or other similar compounds are useless, just pointing out that the effect they may have is likely minimal

That's a horrible path with quickly decreasing returns. And I'm not buying that citrulline is ineffective, need more research on trained athletes.

I'm not buying that it's completely ineffective either. There have been some well designed studies done to my knowledge. But I also know there have been studies that didn't produce positive results, and people on forums like this tend to focus solely on the studies that produced the results they wanted to see.

"That's a horrible path with quickly decreasing returns" - this is completely beside the point and really more of a snap judgement on your part. Things like citrulline, nitrates, betaine etc are all ingredients that I look for in a pre, but I also don't fool myself into thinking that they make or break my progress. There's evidence to suggest they may give a slight edge, and as a natty lifter, I'll always go for a slight edge if I can. But let's be honest, these ingredients aren't "that which we cannot discuss", and they aren't going to have that much of a profound effect. Creatine is the most proven compound among the lot, and it's effects are still rather subtle. A stim hit of energy and focus has a very tangible effect on a training session, and just bc stimulants need to be used with some restraint, cycling and control doesn't mean that someone who uses them is destined to fall victim of tolerance issues and diminishing returns. I've used stimulants for years with great success, bc I know how my body responds to them, and I know when to back off of certain compounds.

I love a good pump, and I think certain ergogenic aids likely do give that slight edge we're all looking for, but stims have had the most acute effect on my sessions, especially training first thing in the morning.

[poison]

Sure. Not saying nitrates, CM or other similar compounds are useless, just pointing out that the effect they may have is likely minimal



I'm not buying that it's completely ineffective either. There have been some well designed studies done to my knowledge. But I also know there have been studies that didn't produce positive results, and people on forums like this tend to focus solely on the studies that produced the results they wanted to see.

"That's a horrible path with quickly decreasing returns" - this is completely beside the point and really more of a snap judgement on your part. Things like citrulline, nitrates, betaine etc are all ingredients that I look for in a pre, but I also don't fool myself into thinking that they make or break my progress. There's evidence to suggest they may give a slight edge, and as a natty lifter, I'll always go for a slight edge if I can. But let's be honest, these ingredients aren't "that which we cannot discuss", and they aren't going to have that much of a profound effect. Creatine is the most proven compound among the lot, and it's effects are still rather subtle. A stim hit of energy and focus has a very tangible effect on a training session, and just bc stimulants need to be used with some restraint, cycling and control doesn't mean that someone who uses them is destined to fall victim of tolerance issues and diminishing returns. I've used stimulants for years with great success, bc I know how my body responds to them, and I know when to back off of certain compounds.

I love a good pump, and I think certain ergogenic aids likely do give that slight edge we're all looking for, but stims have had the most acute effect on my sessions, especially training first thing in the morning.

It's not beside the point at all, when increasing stims has been the trend for the last 15 years. I'm not saying not to use them, or that it's a issue for YOU. I AM saying it's a lazy way for companies to make a lot of money: stims are generally cheap, instantly felt by all (throw in 3.2gr beta alanine just to be sure!!!), and do universally increase performance, initially. But to gain the real performance enhancing effects, you need to almost completely abstain for an extended period, and many/most studies showing performance increases use huge doses (500-800mg). This is not what we generally do; most people workout 3-5 times a week, and use the preworkout each time. This is exactly how go down a pretty terrible path with quickly decreasing returns.

[BenBlue]

It's not beside the point at all, when increasing stims has been the trend for the last 15 years. I'm not saying not to use them, or that it's a issue for YOU. I AM saying it's a lazy way for companies to make a lot of money: stims are generally cheap, instantly felt by all (throw in 3.2gr beta alanine just to be sure!!!), and do universally increase performance, initially. But to gain the real performance enhancing effects, you need to almost completely abstain for an extended period, and many/most studies showing performance increases use huge doses (500-800mg). This is not what we generally do; most people workout 3-5 times a week, and use the preworkout each time. This is exactly how go down a pretty terrible path with quickly decreasing returns.

Gotcha. I can def get on board with this post.

[poison]

Put another way: I'd rather have low level but compounding increases in results and performance over time using creatine, CM, BA, betaine, etc, over much greater, but quickly decreasing effects.

[BenBlue]

Put another way: I'd rather have low level but compounding increases in results and performance over time using creatine, CM, BA, betaine, etc, over much greater, but quickly decreasing effects.

I can appreciate that. For me, I like both, but yes, I've learned to be careful with stims. I rarely take complete breaks but I cycle a lot; take time away from exotics, use caffeine only pres for extended periods, dial back the amount of caffeine, and then start back up w moderately strong pres and work up the latter of strength until I see a need to back off again. Long term success w stimulants definitely requires self control.

[poison]

A lot of you are young noobs to this stuff, but here's an idea of where things have gone in 10+ years:

This is Black Star Labs GO!, which was *the goat* product back in the day.

Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 3 Level Scoops (10g)
Servings Per Container: 20

Amount Per Serving:

Caffeine Anhydrous 75 mg
Proprietary Blend 9000 mg
Choline Bitartrate
L-Tyrosine
Acetyl-L-Carnitine
Citrate Complex (choline citrate, sodium citrate, magnesium citrate)
Total Carbohydrates 0 g
Dietary Fiber 0 g
Sugars 0 g

1. Effectiveness 9.5/10
I have never felt more concentrated in my life with any other supplement other than ephedra. I took 3 scoops and my concentration was thru the roof, this lasted for 3 1/2 hours! The energy was mild, nothing overpowering, no crash at all.

Today? Throw it all in there: synephrine, y, higenamine, theobromine, tyramine, dmha, and 400mg caffeine. :yawn:

[Gym God]

May be good for a pump, that's about it.

[lucia316]

Do you notice an increase in blood flow with higher doses of CM? I thought so So lets put this thread to sleep along with the ridiculous claims made by people that refuse to train

Science...blah blah blah, right?

How about you troll elsewhere for once and let the big kids have a discussion?

[VaughnTrue]

in for using doppler ultrasound to measure blood flow during workouts.

[powercage]

Never heard or read about CM requiring a build up.

I have not either

[BULLED]

May be good for a pump, that's about it.

But what's pump good for?

[lucia316]

But what's pump good for?

Looking sexy AF at the gym on "arm day?"

[BenBlue]

Looking sexy AF at the gym on "arm day?"

GoTtA dElIvEr NuTrIeNt RiCh BlOoD tO tHe MuScLeS aNd StReTch tHe FaScIa fOr OpTiMaL gAiNs BrO

[OT2000]

Never heard or read about CM requiring a build up.

I need to research some more however in your op it notes that more research is needed on both acute and loading trials. Plasma Arginine should increase with consistent use. What those effects are we know, the ergogenic benefits seem to be what is called versus maybe something like a reduction in muscle soreness due to waste removal etc.

[powercage]

I need to research some more however in your op it notes that more research is needed on both acute and loading trials. Plasma Arginine should increase with consistent use. What those effects are we know, the ergogenic benefits seem to be what is called versus maybe something like a reduction in muscle soreness due to waste removal etc.

BP regulation as well

[BULLED]

Looking sexy AF at the gym on "arm day?"

I never look sexy at the gym (nor anywhere) Brb, buying some CM for arm days.

[eatyourspinach]

But what's pump good for?

Looking sexy AF at the gym on "arm day?"

Actually https://journals.lww.com/nsca-scj/fu...ms_and.11.aspx

[poison]

I don't really give a ****: I love CM, and will continue to use it, since in my experience in increases performance.

[Madevilz]

I don't really give a ****: I love CM, and will continue to use it, since in my experience in increases performance.

I love CM, It's a staple of mine and often take way too much
But even the best of us can be prone to the placebo. I'll let further studies come out disproving CM before throwing it out of my stack.

However, what you said is exactly what people used to (or still in some case) say about BCAA, Arginine, CEE, Glutamine and other worthless supps.