At least 16 dead in Florida school shooting

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Therein lies the dilemma. I know the framers were super-intelligent people, but I don't think could fathom such technological advances in weaponry. I have always been on the fence about the whole debate surrounding military style weapons and I personally will never own one. I spent my 8 years in the military and fired many different weapons, and they have their place.

One thing I hope we can all 100% agree on is that the rules for buying a handgun should follow with the rules for these military style weapons. Mainly I'm referring to the age requirement.

Actually, one law I have no problem with implementing is making the legal purchase age 21. I also have no problem with having to go and get a purchase permit from the local sheriff to purhase all guns; just as you have to do (here anyway) to purchase a handgun.

I also don't have a problem with requiring individuals to only sell to somebody who has such a purchase permit. In reality, most of the folks I know who sell guns to individuals (handgun or not) ask to see your 'pistol permit' or 'concealed carry permit'. Both mean you've been checked out by law officials.

Banning any of the currently available guns/magazines/etc, however, is IMHO over the line.

It's time we stop blaming "tools" for the actions of those wielding the "tool". We need to get to the heart of the problem which involves among other things, bullying, domestic abuse, the lack of a strong and stable father figure, and strong male mentorship.

I'm probably going to get fired this weekend but I'm going to preach on this one. I generally avoid political sermons but this one needs to be done.

BTW, I ordered a new gun online today. Off 'gun-broker', has to be shipped to a local FFL where I will have to show my permit and fill out additional paperwork. But, I'm anxious to get it.

[sy2502]

So.....you have no clue? Surprising...

No I don't have a clue why in Canada people don't shoot in schools. Neither do you.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

No I don't have a clue why in Canada people don't shoot in schools. Neither do you.

I don't know much about Canadian society. I was there back in 1982 and literally laughed when the first word out of the first Canadian I talked to was "A".

But, back to why a difference in shootings. Maybe they do a better job with school bullying, mental health, or other variables.

It would be nice if there could be studies done that didn't have political agendas built into them, but sad to say there aren't many out there.

[thomashenry]

But we are not talking about making guns illegal for trustworthy law abiding citizens, we are talking about severly restricting, if not outright banning of weapons and ammunition designed to mechanize the killing of humans.

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Reducing this to statistics is so......Stalinist.

Just a few more thoughts, Gun control is the theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. It is the cowardice that will concede the slaughter of innocent people rather than accept the notion of return fire from an armed responsible citizen. It is the fantasy that those willing to violate laws against murder will comply with a ‘Gun Free Zone’ placard. It is the deadly miscalculation that refuses to understand that of the dozens of principle genocides that have occurred none involved and armed population. Today I am thankful to live in a country where responsible free men and women can still decide for themselves how to protect their families, their property and their liberties.

I have an AR-15. I have an AK-47. I have shotguns and handguns, collected over a 45 year period, Some I have or had for Hunting & I have some for close range threats if ever necessary and others to make sure threats don’t get into close range. It is how I have chosen to protect my family and my property and to exercise my 2nd amendment rights. I don’t need these firearms? I don’t need this many firearms? Let me explain something to you, in a free society it is not what I need but what I can afford. You don’t get a vote. I am part of the most trustworthy group of Americans; I am a concealed carry permit holder and a responsible gun owner. And not you or anyone else will disarm me.

[Mark1T]

We have more murders every year that aren’t mass murders or school shootings.

Many children will be beaten like dogs today by their own parents.

Let’s not pretend we have ever been a simple peace living nation. We founded this country through violence. Did we expect anything different. Seriously.

Who the hell is pretending it has ever been a peace living nation? If you got that from my comments, you're looking too deep. Lets not pretend that the availability of firearms isn't adding to the violence that goes on within the nation.

Guys, the Russians are even creating division in the 035 section. Be very careful. Just sayin'.

[latebloomingmom]

Thanks for explaining the easy part...now how about why there is such a huge difference in the violence in the U.S. vs Canada when we have identical societies minus the guns?

I would suspect that perhaps they are not so identical..mutiple variables would have to be taken into account

[Brackneyc]

Who the hell is pretending it has ever been a peace living nation? If you got that from my comments, you're looking too deep. Lets not pretend that the availability of firearms isn't adding to the violence that goes on within the nation.

It was really a general response to the notion that violence here is new. It’s simply not. Gun violence is the media’s “go to” non stop story when it happens, but is no where near the biggest issue we have going. Not even close.

[mtpockets]

Guys, the Russians are even creating division in the 035 section. Be very careful. Just sayin'.

Well those sneaky commies, probably a ploy to sell more Kalashnikov's.

[Brackneyc]

Well those sneaky commies, probably a ploy to sell more Kalashnikov's.

Sneaky bastages

[mtpockets]

It was really a general response to the notion that violence here is new. It’s simply not. Gun violence is the media’s “go to” non stop story when it happens, but is no where near the biggest issue we have going. Not even close.

Oh I agree it isn't the biggest, its just the current issue, the media will run with it, politicians will flap their gums, nothing will be accomplished and things will subside until it rears its ugly head again.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

It was really a general response to the notion that violence here is new. It’s simply not. Gun violence is the media’s “go to” non stop story when it happens, but is no where near the biggest issue we have going. Not even close.

We don't have a "gun violence" problem, it's a violence problem.

We have a heart and soul problem.

[sy2502]

I don't know much about Canadian society. I was there back in 1982 and literally laughed when the first word out of the first Canadian I talked to was "A".

But, back to why a difference in shootings. Maybe they do a better job with school bullying, mental health, or other variables.

It would be nice if there could be studies done that didn't have political agendas built into them, but sad to say there aren't many out there.

Blah blah blah it's GUNNNNZZ!!!

[Brackneyc]

We don't have a "gun violence" problem, it's a violence problem.

We have a heart and soul problem.

Sorry I just now saw this. I was looking through the hundreds of thousands of street fight videos posted on YouTube. Some were of kids as young as 10 years old.

Now, what was that about us having a violence issue?

Not serious.

[Jtbny]

I don't know much about Canadian society. I was there back in 1982 and literally laughed when the first word out of the first Canadian I talked to was "A".

But, back to why a difference in shootings. Maybe they do a better job with school bullying, mental health, or other variables.

It would be nice if there could be studies done that didn't have political agendas built into them, but sad to say there aren't many out there.

The other variable is Canada has 31 guns for every 100 people so access is far lower than the 101 guns per 100 people in the US. If we are looking at variables it's absurd NOT to look at a correlation between the amount of available guns in each country. Agree on the other variables you mentioned playing a part and I'd guess they would be statistically significant. Culture plays a significant role.

***The figures cited are estimates for "private gun ownership
***https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

[Brackneyc]

The other variable is Canada has 31 guns for every 100 people so access is far lower than the 101 guns per 100 people in the US. If we are looking at variables it's absurd NOT to look at a correlation between the amount of available guns in each country. Agree on the other variables you mentioned playing a part and I'd guess they would be statistically significant. Culture plays a significant role.

***The figures cited are estimates for "private gun ownership
***https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

300 million guns estimated to be in the hands of citizens. Yesterday, over 300 million people didn't shoot anyone.

We can do the statistic thing all day. In the end, the stats favor gun owners.

[Karl_Hungus]

The other variable is Canada has 31 guns for every 100 people so access is far lower than the 101 guns per 100 people in the US. If we are looking at variables it's absurd NOT to look at a correlation between the amount of available guns in each country. Agree on the other variables you mentioned playing a part and I'd guess they would be statistically significant. Culture plays a significant role.

***The figures cited are estimates for "private gun ownership
***https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

In order to do such a correlation, you would need multiple data points, which would include many Latin American countries that have higher rates of gun violence, yet lower per capita gun ownership. Besides, comparing across countries is of limited utility as there are so many differing variables that it is nearly impossible to narrow it down to a simplistic single one. Further, even gun violence itself is a complicated issue. School shootings make headlines, but far more people are shot in the city of Chicago alone than in school shootings...and the causes for each are different and multifaceted, which likely require different solutions and approaches. I'm not saying that the number of guns is irrelevant, but I suspect it is a very small piece of a much larger puzzle.

[Bando]

there should be a guns sales data base linked to mental health prescriptions and or domestic house calls by local police...

there's really no reason why we can't start finding category's to put some of these higher risk people in after they bring home these toys !

I've got a hunch that the Po Po wouldn't be excited to go on "Code 404, Mental Issues, go take his guns"

As a matter of fact in my state the state Government enacted a law to go check on people whose pistol permits expired and law enforcement simply won't do it.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

300 million guns estimated to be in the hands of citizens. Yesterday, over 300 million people didn't shoot anyone.

We can do the statistic thing all day. In the end, the stats favor gun owners.

None of my guns have shot anyone since I've owned them. I say since I've owned them as most of my guns are military rifles from WWII and prior, some of them likely took part in two or even three wars. My wife has asked me if any of them give me the willies, I said no... but I do have one bayonet that has a spooky vibe to it.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

there should be a guns sales data base linked to mental health prescriptions and or domestic house calls by local police...

there's really no reason why we can't start finding category's to put some of these higher risk people in after they bring home these toys !

I've got a hunch that the Po Po wouldn't be excited to go on "Code 404, Mental Issues, go take his guns"

As a matter of fact in my state the state Government enacted a law to go check on people whose pistol permits expired and law enforcement simply won't do it.

We really need to ID the folks with mental issues before they buy their guns.

[Bando]

None of my guns have shot anyone since I've owned them.

Mine have dropped a whitetail or 2.

[Jtbny]

300 million guns estimated to be in the hands of citizens. Yesterday, over 300 million people didn't shoot anyone.

We can do the statistic thing all day. In the end, the stats favor gun owners.

What you quoted was my response to why Canada might have a much lower rate of these types of shootings and I provided numbers to explain a single, significant variable - the amount of aval. guns per cap. Again, I have never said I want guns to be banned/removed/revoked. If you believe the amount of available guns and the ease of access arent important variables (two of many) then we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Also, would we agree that drug overdoses are an issue here in the US? 64,000 died in 2016 of overdoses; over 300mill didn't so...

[Fishman15]

Sorry I just now saw this. I was looking through the hundreds of thousands of street fight videos posted on YouTube. Some were of kids as young as 10 years old.

Now, what was that about us having a violence issue?

Not serious.

Remember the stinky patchouli oil guy I work with...it's ok if ya don't... anyway I got him in a little trouble over his over "perfuming" at the workplace. I think it may have triggered some violent thoughts in his head. I've walked by his desk several times since then always near the end of the workday. I can see clear as mud what he is looking at on his phone...Youtube videos of teenage girls in violent bloody fights. This coming from a 40 something year old man with kids. I'm tempted to notify the fbi but what we have learned from this latest school shooting is that they wouldn't do anything anyway. See something say something...yea right!

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Yes, it's World Net Daily, but... I for one agrees that these drugs are a factor in the school shootings.

http://www.wnd.com/2018/02/media-ign...hool-shooting/

Here we go again. A horrific mass shooting occurs. Everyone is in shock and grief. Democrats blame guns and Republicans. Pundits urge the public, “If you see something, say something.” And everyone asks, “Why?”

As information about the perpetrator emerges, a relative confides to a newspaper that the “troubled youth” who committed the mass murder was on psychiatric medications – you know, those powerful, little understood, mind-altering drugs with fearsome side effects including “suicidal ideation” and even “homicidal ideation.”

Yet the predictable response from the press is always the same – not only a total lack of curiosity, but disdain for any who ask the question, as though connecting psychiatric meds to mass shootings is pursuing a “conspiracy theory.”


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2018/02/media-ign...RKmbKPcHic7.99

[Cantplankwell]

FWIW regarding some of the comparisons popping up. Canada is a parliamentary democracy, it is a different political system that has evolved over a 1000 years....starting in Britain, I dont think the provinces have as much power as individual US states.... Firearms are regulated by the Federal Government with a few minor tweaks from province to province, I believe regulation is taken care of by the RCMP...the Mounties, which is the national police force. Infractions are prosecuted under the criminal code of Canada . So it is a very federal system. The "template" for regulation...which is by no means perfect I dont think would work with the US system, because of the deeply inherent differences in the political systems . Also Canadian "freedom" was a gradual process that occurred over a very long period of time. We were not fully legally separate from Great Britain until the 1920s, Newfoundland was 1949. I guess the UK learned from the wars of American independence, allowing the French to stay French, and have their own religion and some laws. Despite Quebec Canada remained largely "British" until well after the second world war, when immigrants from other countries started to arrive in greater numbers. So there is not that same feeling of having to have fight our way free for our principle of our brand of liberty. It really is not a good comparison. I personally don't know anyone or know of anyone who has anything beyond hunting weapons, or something like a Lee Enfield, I do know some guys who have restricted carry licenses for handguns, but these are rare. You also just cant go down to a gun shop and buy a gun, I am not knowledgeable about the process, you have to take courses, apply for a permit, get the permit...and then go shopping, it could be a couple of months. Transporting the weapon is also highly regulated, especially if it is a restricted weapon. I also not sure how it works if you are someone who should not be trusted with any type of gun or weapon, such as individuals with mental health issues, or having prior convictions. I am also not sure to what degree different levels of government enforcement and public safety officials, health care, or community leaders work together to mitigate potential problems with firearms. Its probably dysfunctional

[JediRN]

Guys, the Russians are even creating division in the 035 section. Be very careful. Just sayin'.

The Golden Calf declared your position a hoax. Maybe he should just call all this gun violence a hoax and we will all be fine. While he's at it he could just declare that the wall had already been built as and is working. His followers will believe him and it well save millions.

[Brackneyc]

What you quoted was my response to why Canada might have a much lower rate of these types of shootings and I provided numbers to explain a single, significant variable - the amount of aval. guns per cap. Again, I have never said I want guns to be banned/removed/revoked. If you believe the amount of available guns and the ease of access arent important variables (two of many) then we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

Also, would we agree that drug overdoses are an issue here in the US? 64,000 died in 2016 of overdoses; over 300mill didn't so...

I cannot say that overall availability is the prevailing issue. Again, 99.99999% of gun owners, including a few who are probably crazy, don’t shoot people. I will even include people that have their guns illegally.

This latest shooter telegraphed his actions as well as, or better than anything or anyone we have seen recently, yet nothing was done.

This one, IMO, was more than an overall availability issue. It was at least, in part, a failure to act on information issue. Again, just my opinion.

[Jtbny]

I for one agrees that these drugs are a factor in the school shootings.



Here we go again. A horrific mass shooting occurs. Everyone is in shock and grief. Democrats blame guns and Republicans. Pundits urge the public, “If you see something, say something.” And everyone asks, “Why?”

As information about the perpetrator emerges, a relative confides to a newspaper that the “troubled youth” who committed the mass murder was on psychiatric medications – you know, those powerful, little understood, mind-altering drugs with fearsome side effects including “suicidal ideation” and even “homicidal ideation.”

Yet the predictable response from the press is always the same – not only a total lack of curiosity, but disdain for any who ask the question, as though connecting psychiatric meds to mass shootings is pursuing a “conspiracy theory.”

Agree this is a huge factor in society in general. Over-medication should be looked at in our society in general.

I'm not sure the response from the media is always the same. Watching Maher last night he brought this very issue up as a contributing factor in the Fla shooting as well as other incidents. If people are ignoring this variable I'd question their motive much like I question the motive of those who ignore the amount of guns and ease of access in the US as an important variable in these shootings.

I cannot say that overall availability is the prevailing issue. Again, 99.99999% of gun owners, including a few who are probably crazy, don’t shoot people. I will even include people that have their guns illegally.

This latest shooter telegraphed his actions as well as, or better than anything or anyone we have seen recently, yet nothing was done.

This one, IMO, was more than an overall availability issue. It was at least, in part, a failure to act on information issue. Again, just my opinion.

Prevailing? Not sure here either. One of many important variables? Absolutely. So important in fact if you removed it, with everything else remaining constant, my guess is the number would be significantly lower. This is just my .02 though.

Your second point is dead on. The inaction of authorities especially given how many warnings were given is mind-blowing and now get ready for the over compensation to start over every single comment made.

[Jtbny]

Just a few more thoughts, Gun control is the theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound. It is the cowardice that will concede the slaughter of innocent people rather than accept the notion of return fire from an armed responsible citizen. It is the fantasy that those willing to violate laws against murder will comply with a ‘Gun Free Zone’ placard. It is the deadly miscalculation that refuses to understand that of the dozens of principle genocides that have occurred none involved and armed population. Today I am thankful to live in a country where responsible free men and women can still decide for themselves how to protect their families, their property and their liberties.

I have an AR-15. I have an AK-47. I have shotguns and handguns, collected over a 45 year period, Some I have or had for Hunting & I have some for close range threats if ever necessary and others to make sure threats don’t get into close range. It is how I have chosen to protect my family and my property and to exercise my 2nd amendment rights. I don’t need these firearms? I don’t need this many firearms? Let me explain something to you, in a free society it is not what I need but what I can afford. You don’t get a vote. I am part of the most trustworthy group of Americans; I am a concealed carry permit holder and a responsible gun owner. And not you or anyone else will disarm me.

I respect your opinion ITT but, IMO what you wrote is exactly why there is inaction. When folks who share your thoughts hear others talk about revising gun legislation they automatically go to the 2nd Amm argument and the whole "you or anyone else will not disarm me." Whenever someone mentions a data base to track gun ownership it's automatically assumed the gov't will use it to take your guns. When others talk about limiting the types of weapons available those who share your thoughts use the "in a free society it is not what I need but what I can afford." (Which is BS anyway - good luck purchasing your rocket launcher in your free society).

There are no concessions available with those who share your thoughts. You haven't offered any in all your posts. From what I see you and others who think like you on this issue do there best to deflect any and all attention away from the availability and ease of access (relatively) of firearms and on to something else. We have no where to go on this issue if those who share your thoughts aren't willing to budge.

[latebloomingmom]

We really need to ID the folks with mental issues before they buy their guns.

and you would do this how exactly? As far as I know, mental health screenings are not a pre-requisite for registering a child for school. We do not give them along with requiring a booster shot..In a school of say 800 students with perhaps three or four school counselors on staff I am uncertain how these high risk kids will be spotted. In the case of most school shootings, the students are not the gun owners. Ok, now these kids either graduate, drop out, get a GED and go off into the world...When will they be identified as having a mental illness that may disqualify them from gun ownership? What mental illnesses will we include? anxiety? that guy might freak out and shoot ya if you sit next to him on the bus or maybe depression? suicide ideation or perhaps plans of homicide might be going on in there..personality disorders? schizoid? brief episodic depression brought on by grief? I dunno that guy might lose it he just lost his job and his wife..not picking on ya I am just not sure how this might be done..we got such things as confidentiality and HIPPA laws

[Mark1T]

It is not just mental illness. This shooter, as I have posted three times, had many indicators. Mentally ill or not, if the police are called to a person's home 25+ times in 6 years and if the FBI was contacted about terroristic postings on ******** including threats that included threatening to be a professional school shooter/murderer (paraphrased), then the FBI should have followed through, arrested him and confiscated his guns.

Not all mentally ill people are violent. This guys was and is. The FBI dropped the ball.