** Official Florida Shooting Endless Argument Thread **

[RespectYourself]

From an outsider's (non-American) perspective, this phenomenon of weekly school shootings does seem disturbing and strange. It's not a good sign that this has become a new "norm" in American society.

I can only assume that thus far there has been insufficient "social cost" to demand change, through tougher laws or stronger regulatory control. That is not to say that such laws would work very well, but it is telling that there has been no tangible attempt to reform anything, or do anything.

I suppose that "social cost" to American society has to be a lot greater than the current levels of deaths and killings, before there is any attempt to tackle the problem and take action. Social cost is not yet deemed high enough.

I honestly thought something drastic would happen after Sandy Hook. Nope. How much worse could it get.

[RobParks2M]

America has too much pride in giving up any right that was deemed necessary 150 years ago. We have to protect our family from the indians that look to intrude on our teepees.

I also want you to know that I own a gun by the bumper sticker on my 96 GMC Sierra. and yes, theyre 37 inch tires not 35.

No. The problem lies in the fact that there are millions upon millions of guns in the US in the hands of both respectable people and criminals alike. How do you now take the guns out of the hands of the responsible when you know criminals aren't going to hand theirs over? How do you tell the gun owner who has had guns since he was able to walk that suddenly after 40 years of gun ownership he is no longer responsible enough to own a gun?

[reverse79]

No. The problem lies in the fact that there are millions upon millions of guns in the US in the hands of both respectable people and criminals alike. How do you now take the guns out of the hands of the responsible when you know criminals aren't going to hand theirs over? How do you tell the gun owner who has had guns since he was able to walk that suddenly after 40 years of gun ownership he is no longer responsible enough to own a gun?

like anything else in life.....you adapt?


I 100% believe that you will still wake up, breathe, go on about your life like everyone else in this world that doesnt own a gun does and has for thousands of years.

Is there any facts that dont support this notion?

[NZdude]

No. The problem lies in the fact that there are millions upon millions of guns in the US in the hands of both respectable people and criminals alike. How do you now take the guns out of the hands of the responsible when you know criminals aren't going to hand theirs over? How do you tell the gun owner who has had guns since he was able to walk that suddenly after 40 years of gun ownership he is no longer responsible enough to own a gun?

that would be silly - I would not be suggesting anything so drastic

[Tuksonrider]

Yeah but a gun show is random individuals. A mass gathering. If you are selling it to your family, or someone wants to buy from a street source, its harder to find.

Huh? Never been to a gun show, but I buy and sell guns privately quite easily.

http://arizona.backpage.com/SportsEquipForSale/

Sold a gun last week to a guy in a parking lot. No biggie. No laws broke, no loopholes. Was on the up and up.

[Avalanche3319]

like anything else in life.....you adapt?


I 100% believe that you will still wake up, breathe, go on about your life like everyone else in this world that doesnt own a gun does and has for thousands of years.

Is there any facts that dont support this notion?

Lol, people aren't just going to give them up. I, like many others, would fight for their rights even if it means their lives. If you can find people to "round them up" they'd be killing Americans, and being killed, to do so. Good luck on your civil war goals of 2018.

[P51]

Sure, put people with guns in the schools so that bad people don't have 3-10 minutes of unfettered access to hundreds or thousands of defenseless victims.

and put them in malls? Churches? Office buildings? Movie theaters? In fact I just want to have the national guard at every place where 50 people or more will be gathered, problem solved right?


Fuken gun nuts.....

[TheWeeknd4Ever]

30 pages of arguments?

Lmao @ you *******s. Take any tragedy to push your own agendas? sickening

[P51]

Lol, people aren't just going to give them up. I, like many others, would fight for their rights even if it means their lives. If you can find people to "round them up" they'd be killing Americans, and being killed, to do so. Good luck on your civil war goals of 2018.

This right here is what we are dealing with people. Someone so mentally unstable he would rather die than give up an object.

[thercias]

This right here is what we are dealing with people. Someone so mentally unstable he would rather die than give up an object.

This gun infactuation in our country is definitely some type of mental disease. Their solution to this problem is either do nothing, give our "thoughts and prayers" and ignore this problem, or give more guns to schools. Who the fuk wants to live in a society where everywhere you go everyone has a weapon that can instantly kill you. What if you piss off the wrong dude that day? Or they make some meaningless statement on how mental illness is the issue, even though their own party wants to defund healthcare services to people. There is a cult in our country that is holding our nation hostage not willing to have a reasonable conversation to try and prevent making incidents like these a regular occurrence.

[P51]

This gun infactuation in our country is definitely some type of mental disease. Their solution to this problem is either do nothing, give our "thoughts and prayers" and ignore this problem, or give more guns to schools. Who the fuk wants to live in a society where everywhere you go everyone has a weapon that can instantly kill you. What if you piss off the wrong dude that day? Or they make some meaningless statement on how mental illness is the issue, even though their own party wants to defund healthcare services to people. There is a cult in our country that is holding our nation hostage not willing to have a reasonable conversation to try and prevent making incidents like these a regular occurrence.

Yep it’s funny in a sad way gun nuts are quick to point to mental illness when it’s clear as day to everyone else, that something is happening in gun nuts heads as well.

[TheJediBrah]

This gun infactuation in our country is definitely some type of mental disease. Their solution to this problem is either do nothing, give our "thoughts and prayers" and ignore this problem, or give more guns to schools. Who the fuk wants to live in a society where everywhere you go everyone has a weapon that can instantly kill you. What if you piss off the wrong dude that day? Or they make some meaningless statement on how mental illness is the issue, even though their own party wants to defund healthcare services to people. There is a cult in our country that is holding our nation hostage not willing to have a reasonable conversation to try and prevent making incidents like these a regular occurrence.

This is the key for me. It's not just that they are unwilling to "give up their guns" or increase gun control, they can't even hold a reasonable conversation on the topic, as demonstrated in this very thread.

Even the most tentative and sensible of suggestions gets boomed down "no no can't have that mentally ill people have rights too you can't take away their guns" and obvious solutions that would unarguably have a positive effect are denied "oh no that wouldn't work" when it obviously would work.

I don't know what's definitively the right answer, or which side is right or wrong but there's one side that is clearly not interested in even having the conversation beyond wilfully ignorant denial.

[Ikeman83]

This gun infactuation in our country is definitely some type of mental disease. Their solution to this problem is either do nothing, give our "thoughts and prayers" and ignore this problem, or give more guns to schools. Who the fuk wants to live in a society where everywhere you go everyone has a weapon that can instantly kill you. What if you piss off the wrong dude that day? Or they make some meaningless statement on how mental illness is the issue, even though their own party wants to defund healthcare services to people. There is a cult in our country that is holding our nation hostage not willing to have a reasonable conversation to try and prevent making incidents like these a regular occurrence.

You live in a society where everyone has a weapon that can kill you right now.

Anyone can decide to illegally carry a gun and shoot you whenever they want.

The idea is to give you the option to shoot back.

and put them in malls? Churches? Office buildings? Movie theaters? In fact I just want to have the national guard at every place where 50 people or more will be gathered, problem solved right?


Fuken gun nuts.....

As far as being armed at malls, etc, that's not really relevant. There aren't 1000 defenseless kids gathered at the mall every day. Many adults choose to carry at the mall and at movie theatres. It's almost like a school is a government institution that we should have a reasonable expectation of there being adequate security for and the other places you listed are private businesses...

[Ikeman83]

This is the key for me. It's not just that they are unwilling to "give up their guns" or increase gun control, they can't even hold a reasonable conversation on the topic, as demonstrated in this very thread.

There have been many reasonable suggestions put forward, such as ending the gun free schools act, putting more cops in schools, or having cops do their paperwork at schools instead of police precincts.

I'm sorry that we don't consider arbitrary limitations on gun purchasing to be a reasonable solution.

[Gizzyhardcore]

No. The problem lies in the fact that there are millions upon millions of guns in the US in the hands of both respectable people and criminals alike. How do you now take the guns out of the hands of the responsible when you know criminals aren't going to hand theirs over? How do you tell the gun owner who has had guns since he was able to walk that suddenly after 40 years of gun ownership he is no longer responsible enough to own a gun?

well yeah, your countires ****ed lol

you have 25x, let that sink in TWENTY FIVE TIMES the rate of gun homicides of any compared western country

[TheJediBrah]

well yeah, your countires ****ed lol

you have 25x, let that sink in TWENTY FIVE TIMES the rate of gun homicides of any compared western country

Not a reliable stat tbh. What about homicides in general though? If someone wants to kill someone they'll use what they have. Of course gun homicides will be higher in USA

[martyn747]

I wonder if someone shot up a private school where the children of senators and politicians attend, whether things might change then

[Farley1324]

Has this been implemented and successful in preventing shootings?

No, because liberal idiots wish to remain disarmed and helpless by force of law

[Farley1324]

You've hardly said a single correct thing all thread. Y

Quote one incorrect statement I have made.

[Farley1324]

1) You made assumptions with this quote "
I know you will ignore these facts once more, but why don't you take a look at Australia's violent crime rate before and after their sweeping gun bans...and look at the US violent crime rate compared to gun ownership. "

Why do you assume I would ignore facts? Projecting much? I'm more than happy to read facts, please provide them, I want to know the truth rather than be validated in my optinion.

I just gave you the UK stats, I felt it was more relevant to me as Im based in the UK. But since you wont provide the facts, I'll find them for you with regards to Oz.

Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents
Oz - 15
US - 88.8

Murders per mil
Oz - 10.38
US - 42.01

You are significantly have a much higher chance of being murdered in the US than in Oz.

Violent crime rate is meaningless when compared to murder. Violent crime could mean mugging, punching someone, heck in some countries hurling abuse at someone could be considered "violence". Since this thread is about murder, and the argument is whether guns kill more people (guns dont kill people, people do), I bring up murder stats.

There's no way around it, school shootings and crazy **** like the vegas shooting will just have to be the norm. To put it into perspective, a single lonely vegas shooter killed more people than the most organised terrorist attack in britain in the last 20 years (7/7).

Out of curiousity, do you think we should arm every country in the world with nuclear weapons, using the threat of violence to deter violence? And if not, why not?


Oh and answer to your question about Aus crime rate before and after gun:

Last year a Reuters analysis of Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed that in 1996, Australia had had 311 murders, of which 98 involved guns. In 2014, when the population had increased from about 18 million to 23 million, 238 people were murdered, 35 by guns.

In other words, the likelihood of being murdered by gunshot fell by 72 per cent in that period, from 0.54 to 0.15 per 100,000 people, Reuters said.

Referring to murders specifically cos "crime" is a very broad term and has gotten broader over the years. What is crime today may not have been a crime 20 years ago.

Nobody ****ing cares that the little island with almost no guns has fewer guns used in crimes than a country with a lot of guns

Because V

Why do people seeking to cause harm use the tools readily available to them? Because they're readily available to them.

^

The generic "you" doesn't have a significantly higher chance of being murdered in the US. "You" only have a higher chance if you engage in certain criminal activities or associate with certain criminal types. Namely, gangs/drugs.

Take a look at the demographics of murder offenders and victims sometime. I know you won't, but you should. You can start with the FBI UCR

[Farley1324]

You're really comparing neutral swizz to murica? C'mon fam.

Can't comment on the Czech, maybe take something from them.

Everything being equal, population, culture, you can't really deny that guns increases murder rate. It's almost like saying having more cars on the road dont cause more traffic. Well of course a much better infrastructure can handle more cars, but the more cars thing definitely has a significant effect.

Except it the violent crime and murder rate goes down as guns (and more specifically and importantly, CARRYING guns, you know, so they are available to use), goes up

Remember the change in 'shall issue' and 'Constitutional carry' laws and the recent literal 50 year low in violent crime that had been trending down for literal decades

[Farley1324]

the weapon is the issue whether you believe it or not....

no one sets up shop in a hotel - breaks out a window - and shoots spit balls at people while theyre attending a concert.

A gun can have more much control over someone than youre willing to admit. So much so, you will defend guns to your death...right?

That's why guns are so important. They must be effective or they wouldn't be so valuable to The People, and to the individual.

[Farley1324]

From an outsider's (non-American) perspective, this phenomenon of weekly school shootings does seem disturbing and strange. It's not a good sign that this has become a new "norm" in American society.

I can only assume that thus far there has been insufficient "social cost" to demand change, through tougher laws or stronger regulatory control. That is not to say that such laws would work very well, but it is telling that there has been no tangible attempt to reform anything, or do anything.

I suppose that "social cost" to American society has to be a lot greater than the current levels of deaths and killings, before there is any attempt to tackle the problem and take action. Social cost is not yet deemed high enough.

Well, since there aren't weekly school shootings, I suggest you take a long hard look at your "perspective"

[Farley1324]

Why cant they do small scale tests to see if gun control curtails crime?

I mean, i know other countries do, but i think its an unfair comparison given the size and demographics of america.

Let the northeast be the first to disallow guns since im guessing theyre the highest % of gun control advocates. I understand its not the same as mass scale adoption but would still be interesting. I guess youd have the criminals fleeing to other states/ getting them from other states, etc.

Idk, would just really like to see the difference. I highly doubt it would do chit, though

Check out the violent crime rate in Washington, D.C. or Baltimore, Maryland.

tl;dr version: Very restrictive gun control, very low lawful gun ownership, no ability to legally carry, extremely high violent crime rate and 'gun crime' violence

[Farley1324]

like anything else in life.....you adapt?


I 100% believe that you will still wake up, breathe, go on about your life like everyone else in this world that doesnt own a gun does and has for thousands of years.

Is there any facts that dont support this notion?

But not everybody has gone about their life for thousands of years after being disarmed. I mean, do you history even a tiny little ****ing bit?

[Farley1324]

and put them in malls? Churches? Office buildings? Movie theaters? In fact I just want to have the national guard at every place where 50 people or more will be gathered, problem solved right?


Fuken gun nuts.....

Where the hell did he say anything about "putting" anybody anywhere? What are you even talking about?

[Farley1324]

Who the fuk wants to live in a society where everywhere you go everyone has a weapon that can instantly kill you.

Location: Detroit


Answer to the above question: thercias

[Farley1324]

You live in a society where everyone has a weapon that can kill you right now.

Anyone can decide to illegally carry a gun and shoot you whenever they want.

The idea is to give you the option to shoot back.

Clearly you are mistaken.

There is NO violent crime in Detroit, and nobody every illegally carries a gun or illegally assaults another person, not in Detroit!

[Farley1324]

well yeah, your countires ****ed lol

you have 25x, let that sink in TWENTY FIVE TIMES the rate of gun homicides of any compared western country

How many times the defensive gun uses? A hundred times more? Three hundred times more? Two hundred thousand times more?

And of course, if you are killed by any means other than a gun, that doesn't count.

And of course, if you commit suicide, the fact that you used a gun instead of something else is really important, because gun violence stats brah

[AltarOfPlagues]

farley doin work this morning. is cz a good make?