Fat intake as a percentage of calories of grams per KG ?

[Finnegan Bell]

Why lots of respectable sources recommend fat intake as a percentage of calories and not as grams per kg bw like protein ? New Eric Helms book as an example , set fat intake recommendation as % of calories and not as grams per KG. I didn't understand why he choose that.

[Jherewhoisdere]

He has also written the minimum requirement of dietary fat in both g/lbs and g/kg in the book.

Generally, going by the percentages he has set you will have sufficient fat intake but if your caloric intake is very low, go with the recommendations based on body weight.

[Mrpb]

I'm always surprised when people use a percentage of calories. Does not make sense in my opinion.

[muruku]

IMO, just set it to 20-25% of total calories.

[NewBrahJP]

Yup, you'll see both options.

20-30% of total calories

or

0.3-0.5g/lb or 0.7-1.1g/kg minimum

(side note, i don't think you need to go with the ''minimum 0.45g/lb'' that is thrown around here. Some people do very well or better with lower, like 0.3 or 0.35g/lbs)

The thing is, those guidelines may give you very different numbers... especially as calories go up. Probably you'll be alright either way but i think it makes more sense to go by Body Weight. If you want then yeah, go up or way up.

[Mrpb]

There's no reason your fat intake should be limited to 25% or 30%.

[muruku]

There's no reason your fat intake should be limited to 25% or 30%.

IIRC it's mainly to ensure sat fat intake is <~10% [maybe wrong on this part] of EI and optimal carb and protein intake:

Thus, a lower end fat intake between 15-20% of calories, which has been previously recommended for bodybuilders [5], can be deemed appropriate if higher percentages would reduce carbohydrate or protein below ideal ranges.

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...550-2783-11-20
http://www.eufic.org/article/en/expi...ts_and_Health/

anyway........ some reading for the OP

[muruku]

and a reason why I chose to go by percentage is because I can't seem to find any guidelines for bodyweight.. I would like to know where the 0.45g/lb comes from

[Mrpb]

IIRC it's mainly to ensure sat fat intake is <~10% [maybe wrong on this part] of EI and optimal carb and protein intake:


https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...550-2783-11-20

From: Recommendations for bodybuilding contest preparation. Going by the fact that this paper assumes a carb based diet and calorie deficit it makes sense to limit fat intake to ensure room for carbs and fat.

In normal scenarios it's not necessary to limit fat intake to 25-30%, unless people prefer that.

There are valid reasons to limit SFA intake, which is a related but slightly different subject.

and a reason why I chose to go by percentage is because I can't seem to find any guidelines for bodyweight.

How about this: your body's requirement for fat does not go down when your energy intake goes down.

[muruku]

check out what i linked ( the attachments) and read the article for context. the fat intake recommendation is wrt hormone production and not limited to the pre-contest scenario.

the same sentiments about compromising other macronutrient intake is also echoed here;
http://www.eufic.org/article/en/expi...ts_and_Health/
The upper limit for fat intake aims to ensure that people do not consume too many daily calories as fat, since it is the most energy-dense macronutrient.

[muruku]

How about this: your body's requirement for fat does not go down when your energy intake goes down.

how do i determine the min requirement?

[Mrpb]

^ I read it. It's just one guy making his recommendations.

Lyle recommending fat intake for bulking: 0.45-1 g/lb (1-2.2 g/kg) http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...gains-qa.html/

From the stickies:

Macronutrient Needs
Once you work out calorie needs, you then work out how much of each macronutrient you should aim for. This should NOT be based on a RATIO of macro intakes. (eg: '30:40:30 or 40:40:20') Your body doesn't CARE what % intake you have. It works based on SUFFICIENT QUANTITY per MASS.

As I mentioned above: your body's requirement for fat does not go down when your energy intake goes down. It's just absurd.

I understand why people do it, often it comes out pretty well usually but not always.

For the same reason we should not be recommending protein at 20%.

how do i determine the min requirement?

Read all the published research on the topic and then come to a general recommendation that ensures people don't do foolish things.

[muruku]

that's the thing.. I've decided to use percentages for fat intake because of what I've read.

[muruku]

even the lyle article is based on percentages ~25% (18/9 * 0.25);

Fat

And fat makes up the rest. As you can guess, fat intake tends to vary inversely with carbohydrate intake. That is, folks who do better with higher carbohydrates, usually do and feel better with lower fat intakes and vice versa (as carbs go down, fat goes up). Some of this just reflects the need to keep calories sufficient, if you’re eating less calories from carbs, fat has to go up to compensate.

So what’s high and low? In the bad-old days, diets containing as little fat as possible were recommended, with 10% or less being common. I consider that too low for a number of reasons. I generally use 20% as an absolute low cutoff point for dietary fat intake with 20-25% being more common, some coaches I know stick to 15% but I think that’s pushing it on the low-end of things. On a fairly typical 18 cal/lb gaining diet, this comes out to about 0.5 g/lb (1.1 g/kg) of fat per day. For a 180 lb individual, that’s 90 grams.

For individuals for whom excess carbs make them feel dopey and bloated, obviously a higher fat intake would be recommended. How high would depend on total caloric intake and how low carbs are. But for a diet containing set at 18 cal/lb with 1.5 g/lb protein and 1 g/lb of carbs, dietary fat would have to be just under 1 g/lb (2.2 g/kg). So 180 grams for our 180 pound guy.

[muruku]

where is that number in the stickies from?

fwiw, I recommend protein based on bodyweight because of what I've read too.

[Mrpb]

^ You haven't addressed the main arguments against it:

The body's requirement for fat does not go down in energy deficit.

Someone with a very active job doesn't need more fat than someone with a more sedentary job.

even the lyle article is based on percentages ~25% (18/9 * 0.25);

In the part that you didn't make bold.... "obviously a higher fat intake would be recommended."

You see Lyle goes all the way up to 2.2 gram per kg. And even that's an arbitrary limit, as he has confirmed.

[muruku]

^ You haven't addressed the main arguments against it:

The body's requirement for fat does not go down in energy deficit.

Someone with a very active job doesn't need more fat than someone with a more sedentary job.

so provide me with evidence of this. what's the min intake based on bodyweight? i'm not trolling. I'm here to learn.

[Mrpb]

Fats are essential for health and hormones. Why would you need less fat when you become less active?

Provide me with the evidence.

[Jherewhoisdere]

I would like to know where the 0.45g/lb comes from

Most credible evidence based coaches have actually set the minimum requirement quite a bit below that. I think the 0.45g/lb which is often recommended in this section is because..

1) When you tell a beginner that his fat minimum is xg/lb - he/she will often also see that as maximum.

2) As your fat intake is higher, you most likely have sufficient amount of EFAs in your diet without having to stress too much about it.

3) It allows more calories towards fat, so people may adhere better to it. (like I said in 1. - they may see the amount as maximum as well, thus their diet may become too restrictive with lower "minimum" requirement)

[muruku]

Fats are essential for health and hormones. Why would you need less fat when you become less active?

Provide me with the evidence.

huh, I provided you with enough references on hwo I arrive at the conclusion of using percentages.. you have yet to provide me with any evidence of a recommendation based on BW. if you wish to carry on this method of debate, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/servi...review-div.pdf

Yes, fat is essential. But like I've said, all I've read provide percentage based guidelines. I've yet to come across anything that prescribes it based on bodyweight.

[muruku]

obviously a higher fat intake would be recommended[/b]."

You see Lyle goes all the way up to 2.2 gram per kg. And even that's an arbitrary limit, as he has confirmed.

you have taken that part out of context. that is wrt to people who:

For individuals for whom excess carbs make them feel dopey and bloated, obviously a higher fat intake would be recommended.

[Mrpb]

huh, I provided you with enough references on hwo I arrive at the conclusion of using percentages.. you have yet to provide me with any evidence of a recommendation based on BW. if you wish to carry on this method of debate, I guess we have to agree to disagree.

I provided Lyle McDonald (~0.45-1 g/lb), he confirmed going even higher can make sense in certain situations.

Then there's Alan who recommends 0.4 gram per lb as a general minimum in his Lean Muscle Diet and doesn't see a problem with going high in certain contexts.

I know it's possible to find references that say "20%" but there are also plenty of reference that say males should consume 2500 calories. That doesn't make them right.

But here's the main problem with the percentage recommendation: Say a very active 170 pound runner and lifter with a 5K TDEE prefers to eat 70 gram fat per day, 200 protein and the rest carbs. That's only 12.6% fat.

I don't expect ANY ill effects coming from it. And I highly doubt Eric, Alan or Lyle will say otherwise. Feel free to ask them.

Second example: a diet high in vegetables, fatty fish, nuts, olive oil, avocados, whole grains can easily come out at 40% fat. Unhealthy? again I highly doubt it.

[Mrpb]

Just looked up how Eric Helms recommends it in his book.

For dieting he recommends 15-25% fat and a "physiological minimum based on body weight". He recommends 0.25 gram per lb as a minimum.

He admits his fat recommendation is lower than usual, he thinks it's ok because dieting is only temporary.

I'd be wary of using such low fat intakes during dieting because dieting of itself will lower testosterone, going very low fat will likely make it worse. I'd go with 0.4 gram per lb as a minimum personally.

[Jherewhoisdere]

Just looked up how Eric Helms recommends it in his book.

For dieting he recommends 15-25% fat and a "physiological minimum based on body weight". He recommends 0.25 gram per lb as a minimum.

He admits his fat recommendation is lower than usual, he thinks it's ok because dieting is only temporary.

Many other coaches have set that (or a very similar amount) as a minimum as well and some even think it is fine during a surplus - which kind of makes sense as you are in a better place overall when compared to being in a deficit.

It also depends a lot on the person's carb tolerance etc. Some may be just fine and some may feel like crap and/or find it too restrictive and thus can't adhere to it. (some people seem to think minimum == maximum)

0.4g/lb is definitely a good general recommendation/starting point IMO.