Fighting back

[bodyhard]

I wonder why no one bumrushed the shooter when he was reloading? According to the news, the shooter reloaded at least 3 times. That gives you an opportunity, albeit small, but still an opportunity to stop him rather than just sitting there and watch others and possibly yourself, get killed

The singer that was shot and killed the other day (I don’t recall her name) her brother tackled the guy to the floor, before you say, “Yeah but that was his sister” I am sure people in that club had loved ones there no? I don’t understand how out of 300 + people, not one person there had the fortitude to fight back.

Whats your thoughts on this?

[DuracellBunny]

Deer/rabbit in the headlights phenomenon. People lose the ability to act.

Somebody can go to martial arts lessons for years, have lots of nice belts, get punched in the face in a bar and forget everything that they have ever learned. Things like this are no different, some people act and some people freeze.

Gay clubs tend to have high incidence of recreational drug usage too, so the chances of half the people in there being on X, special K or something else is quite reasonable. That isn't going to make them more likely to rush somebody.

[bodyhard]

Deer/rabbit in the headlights phenomenon. People lose the ability to act.

Somebody can go to martial arts lessons for years, have lots of nice belts, get punched in the face in a bar and forget everything that they have ever learned. Things like this are no different, some people act and some people freeze.

Gay clubs tend to have high incidence of recreational drug usage too, so the chances of half the people in there being on X, special K or something else is quite reasonable. That isn't going to make them more likely to rush somebody.

I get what you are saying but out of 300 people not 1???

[DuracellBunny]

I get what you are saying but out of 300 people not 1???

It doesn't surprise me. People like to think that they would do xyz in a certain situation, but look at all of the stuff that happens and onlookers don't do anything. We may think one thing or another, but people's primal instinct to run and hide in that kind of situation is a valid one.

I try not to do business in certain countries, as it is a pita, but I sometimes (not often) go to places where you have to take bodyguards with you. A bodyguard's job isn't to stand and fight, it is to get you the fk out of there. This was no different.

With all of the stuff in Paris and other places, people didn't know if this guy was wearing a suicide vest, was about to start throwing grenades, had a dozen friends ready to join him or whatever else. As well as being a fairly natural reaction, running like hell is probably the wisest reaction too.

[Karl_Hungus]

Maybe some did fight back and got shot. Who knows?

[bodyhard]

It doesn't surprise me. People like to think that they would do xyz in a certain situation, but look at all of the stuff that happens and onlookers don't do anything. We may think one thing or another, but people's primal instinct to run and hide in that kind of situation is a valid one.

I try not to do business in certain countries, as it is a pita, but I sometimes (not often) go to places where you have to take bodyguards with you. A bodyguard's job isn't to stand and fight, it is to get you the fk out of there. This was no different.

With all of the stuff in Paris and other places, people didn't know if this guy was wearing a suicide vest, was about to start throwing grenades, had a dozen friends ready to join him or whatever else. As well as being a fairly natural reaction, running like hell is probably the wisest reaction too.

All points well taken, but (and I know this is going to come across as I am some badass but fck it) I could not sit by and allow someone to kill me or others who are my family or friends because I am wondering "what if".

Some years ago a friend of mine put a serious beat down on this man, we were all chilling in the Mitchel projects like 3 weeks later and he came back with an Uzi (choice of street gun back in the day) and sprayed the whole block, killing a couple of my friends and some people who were just at the block as well.

We grabbed garbage cans, rocks, bottles and hurled it at him until one of the bottles hit him upside his head. When he fell down we are rushed him and well lets just say he wont be able to do that again.

My point was that at the very least there was about 10 people throwing sh!t at this guy and we were in the streets where we could have easily ran away.

[bodyhard]

Maybe some did fight back and got shot. Who knows?

Good point, but I doubt they did it while he was reloading no?

[koldnomore]

I don’t understand how out of 300 + people, not one person there had the fortitude to fight back.
Whats your thoughts on this?

It takes a certain type of person. You never know if you are that person unless you are faced with the same situation.

It depends where the shooter was, how close to others - was he close enough to take down? Who was closest to him? Was it someone in 'good shape' who felt that they had a chance against the guy? I don't know many people who would put themselves in a situation like that if they didn't at least have a feeling they could handle it physically. Not to mention, most people are naturally scared of situations where people are dying around them and likely they just wanted to find a place to hide so they didn't get killed. It's not something I would expect the average person to do.

Understandably when a loved one is involved this may change but how may people love their partners so much that they would die for them - really literally die. I would bet it's not that many. You look around at couples and tell by looking at them and watching how they are together that though they might be sad if their partner died they wouldn't follow them to the grave themselves from grief. In order for someone to have taken the step to jump the gunman here are the things that I would expect to have been true of the person considering stopping the shooter:

1. His/Her soul mate would have to be in immediate danger OR they would have had to have been one of those REALLY RARE people who just cared that much about everyone.
2. The individual must have been close enough to the shooter to take action.
3. The individual must have been capable of controlling their emotions in such a way as to have ignored the death, screaming, blood and tragedy around them.
4. There must have been a clear opportunity to act.

Just my thought.

[Karl_Hungus]

Good point, but I doubt they did it while he was reloading no?

Yeah, but he also had a pistol on him if I recall correctly...so, I am not sure waiting for him to reload would have saved you from a bullet. I don't think we have a clear picture of what happened inside the club during that time. Maybe some fought back and we just don't know it. Think about it: We would never have known the Flight 93 passengers fought back if there weren't audio recordings and phone calls as it was happening.

[bodyhard]

It takes a certain type of person. You never know if you are that person unless you are faced with the same situation.

It depends where the shooter was, how close to others - was he close enough to take down? Who was closest to him? Was it someone in 'good shape' who felt that they had a chance against the guy? I don't know many people who would put themselves in a situation like that if they didn't at least have a feeling they could handle it physically. Not to mention, most people are naturally scared of situations where people are dying around them and likely they just wanted to find a place to hide so they didn't get killed. It's not something I would expect the average person to do.

Understandably when a loved one is involved this may change but how may people love their partners so much that they would die for them - really literally die. I would bet it's not that many. You look around at couples and tell by looking at them and watching how they are together that though they might be sad if their partner died they wouldn't follow them to the grave themselves from grief. In order for someone to have taken the step to jump the gunman here are the things that I would expect to have been true of the person considering stopping the shooter:

1. His/Her soul mate would have to be in immediate danger OR they would have had to have been one of those REALLY RARE people who just cared that much about everyone.
2. The individual must have been close enough to the shooter to take action.
3. The individual must have been capable of controlling their emotions in such a way as to have ignored the death, screaming, blood and tragedy around them.
4. There must have been a clear opportunity to act.

Just my thought.

Again all very good points, but again I just can't comprehend that many people and not one (unless they did like Karl stated) took action. I come from a different place and just can't understand the lack of fighting back.

[DuracellBunny]

All points well taken, but (and I know this is going to come across as I am some badass but fck it) I could not sit by and allow someone to kill me or others who are my family or friends because I am wondering "what if".

Some years ago a friend of mine put a serious beat down on this man, we were all chilling in the Mitchel projects like 3 weeks later and he came back with an Uzi (choice of street gun back in the day) and sprayed the whole block, killing a couple of my friends and some people who were just at the block as well.

We grabbed garbage cans, rocks, bottles and hurled it at him until one of the bottles hit him upside his head. When he fell down we are rushed him and well lets just say he wont be able to do that again.

My point was that at the very least there was about 10 people throwing sh!t at this guy and we were in the streets where we could have easily ran away.

You are your friends operated with a herd mentality in that situation. You were on your patch, as part of a pack and you were attacked, so the pack responded to the threat. Being out in 2's or 3's on semi unfamiliar ground is a different thing.

I'll ask you a question which I can almost guarantee the answer to. When you had kids, what did you tell them to do if they heard a gunshot? I'm pretty sure you would have drilled in to them to hit the deck/get behind something/run or some variation thereof.

[bodyhard]

Yeah, but he also had a pistol on him if I recall correctly...so, I am not sure waiting for him to reload would have saved you from a bullet. I don't think we have a clear picture of what happened inside the club during that time. Maybe some fought back and we just don't know it. Think about it: We would never have known the Flight 93 passengers fought back if there weren't audio recordings and phone calls as it was happening.

It's a club Karl, they had to have mad bottles in there. it takes two hands to reload no? I doubt you can reload a gun with one hand. Imagine of say, just 20 people launching chairs, bottles etc etc at him while he was reloading...that would have gave them a fighting chance.

I dunno man I just don't understand it.

[Mark1T]

Good point, but I doubt they did it while he was reloading no?

Doesn't take that long to re-load. Also, who is actually ready for an Islamic Terrorist to come in and start shooting people with a high-powered rifle?

[bodyhard]

You are your friends operated with a herd mentality in that situation. You were on your patch, as part of a pack and you were attacked, so the pack responded to the threat. Being out in 2's or 3's on semi unfamiliar ground is a different thing.

I'll ask you a question which I can almost guarantee the answer to. When you had kids, what did you tell them to do if they heard a gunshot? I'm pretty sure you would have drilled in to them to hit the deck/get behind something/run or some variation thereof.

You asked me a question and I am answering it honestly. Because my kids were raised in the hood and shootings were frequent I always, always told them, if you hear gun shots move away from the direction you hear the shots, stay low and and out of sight, if you can not get away, defend yourself at all cost, do not let anyone take your life without a fight.

Whether you want to believe that or not, makes no difference to me, but that is exactly what I have told my children time and time again.

[bodyhard]

Doesn't take that long to re-load. Also, who is actually ready for an Islamic Terrorist to come in and start shooting people with a high-powered rifle?

As I mentioned before we come fro different worlds Mark, I was raised with drivebys, street beef, shootings so we were always on point.

Anyway this is not about that, I just don't understand peoples lack of fighting back, I guess I never will.

[DuracellBunny]

You asked me a question and I am answering it honestly. Because my kids were raised in the hood and shootings were frequent I always, always told them, if you hear gun shots move away from the direction you hear the shots, stay low and and out of sight, if you can not get away, defend yourself at all cost, do not let anyone take your life without a fight.

Whether you want to believe that or not, makes no difference to me, but that is exactly what I have told my children time and time again.

That's the important bit, right there. It's like the people on the plane, they had nowhere to run to, so they fought. If you can get the fk away from the danger you do it, but if you can't, then kill the fker before they kill you.

[Karl_Hungus]

It's a club Karl, they had to have mad bottles in there. it takes two hands to reload no? I doubt you can reload a gun with one hand. Imagine of say, just 20 people launching chairs, bottles etc etc at him while he was reloading...that would have gave them a fighting chance.

I dunno man I just don't understand it.

Yeah, but you are thinking with the cool-headed logic and analysis of someone who is removed from the situation with time to reflect. Those in the club did not have this luxury. Fear and terror is contagious, and one person's cool-headed action when alone may not be so when surrounded by hundreds of panicking people. So, if someone did attack, I think it is understandable that they may have not chosen the most opportune moment to do so. Most people are thinking about how to get away....they aren't trying to determine when he will be reloading so that they can launch the perfect attack.

[PIMking13]

I wonder why no one bumrushed the shooter when he was reloading? According to the news, the shooter reloaded at least 3 times. That gives you an opportunity, albeit small, but still an opportunity to stop him rather than just sitting there and watch others and possibly yourself, get killed

The singer that was shot and killed the other day (I don’t recall her name) her brother tackled the guy to the floor, before you say, “Yeah but that was his sister” I am sure people in that club had loved ones there no? I don’t understand how out of 300 + people, not one person there had the fortitude to fight back.

Whats your thoughts on this?

wait he fired 700 rounds and only reloaded 3 times?

second shooter had to be there

[Mark1T]

As I mentioned before we come fro different worlds Mark, I was raised with drivebys, street beef, shootings so we were always on point.

Anyway this is not about that, I just don't understand peoples lack of fighting back, I guess I never will.

Understood. We may never know if anyone at least tried. But, I just read that the guy was a security guard and it is possible that he knew where to best be strategically in case someone did rush him. All speculation.

[x-trainer ben]

I wonder why no one bumrushed the shooter when he was reloading? According to the news, the shooter reloaded at least 3 times. That gives you an opportunity, albeit small, but still an opportunity to stop him rather than just sitting there and watch others and possibly yourself, get killed

The singer that was shot and killed the other day (I don’t recall her name) her brother tackled the guy to the floor, before you say, “Yeah but that was his sister” I am sure people in that club had loved ones there no? I don’t understand how out of 300 + people, not one person there had the fortitude to fight back.

Whats your thoughts on this?

What kind of club was it again?

[GnomusMaximus]

Who knows? I do get an impression this guy had prepped himself really well so maybe he had accounted for that. he also barricaded himself for a long shoot-out which is different from most historical mass shootings. Usually they kill themselves when they are trapped.

[bodyhard]

Yeah, but you are thinking with the cool-headed logic and analysis of someone who is removed from the situation with time to reflect. Those in the club did not have this luxury. Fear and terror is contagious, and one person's cool-headed action when alone may not be so when surrounded by hundreds of panicking people. So, if someone did attack, I think it is understandable that they may have not chosen the most opportune moment to do so. Most people are thinking about how to get away....they aren't trying to determine when he will be reloading so that they can launch the perfect attack.

I guess that is where folks differ, I would be thinking, "How the fck do I stop this guy"

That's the important bit, right there. It's like the people on the plane, they had nowhere to run to, so they fought. If you can get the fk away from the danger you do it, but if you can't, then kill the fker before they kill you.

Exactly.

Understood. We may never know if anyone at least tried. But, I just read that the guy was a security guard and it is possible that he knew where to best be strategically in case someone did rush him. All speculation.

Understood, but I just can't see myself lay ther and be killed without even trying, but like you said we will never know, but it still makes me wonder.

What kind of club was it again?

I thought about that as well, but even so I would have to assume not all gay men are afraid to fight back.

[mtpockets]

Oh for cripes sakes, 49 people were just slaughtered in the dark, I think there are other areas we can focus our attention rather than criticize peoples actions during the crisis.

Pretty easy to armchair quarterback and say I would have done this or that.

inappropriate thread imo

[SugarFree1]

Im kind of puzzled by this myself. Im not saying people are all fearless hero's that are automatically going to risk themselves for everyone else but at what point of watching this guy shoot over 100 people and you not having a means of escape do you not try to rush the guy

[SugarFree1]

Understood. We may never know if anyone at least tried. But, I just read that the guy was a security guard and it is possible that he knew where to best be strategically in case someone did rush him. All speculation.

It does not sound like he was strategically placed at least not the entire time. Club survivors say everyone was playing possum while the gun man walked around the floor shooting those lying there

[Karl_Hungus]

Im kind of puzzled by this myself. Im not saying people are all fearless hero's that are automatically going to risk themselves for everyone else but at what point of watching this guy shoot over 100 people and you not having a means of escape do you not try to rush the guy

But as I have been saying in this thread .... How do you KNOW they didn't try to rush the guy? Maybe they did and got shot.

[bodyhard]

It does not sound like he was strategically placed at least not the entire time. Club survivors say everyone was playing possum while the gun man walked around the floor shooting those lying there

I am not sure how true this is BUT if this did happen then that means his back was facing folks at one point or another.

[SugarFree1]

But as I have been saying in this thread .... How do you KNOW they didn't try to rush the guy? Maybe they did and got shot.

You are correct but I would assume we wouldve have heard something to it if this did happen

[SugarFree1]

I am not sure how true this is BUT if this did happen then that means his back was facing folks at one point or another.

Yes thats also what I have thought but regardless even if not, at some point I would think at least some of them at some point wouldve have lost hope and charged even if it was a fruitless frontal assault

[bodyhard]

You are correct but I would assume we wouldve have heard something to it if this did happen

So far the survivors they have spoken to have not mentioned anything about anyone trying to fight back, maybe we will hear something when they speak to more and more survivors..