Maintain or lean bulk?

[OllieN96]

I'm 19, 5ft 10 inches, 138lbs, and have reverse dieted while also now being at maintenance for 6 weeks (since ending my 2+ year cut to loose over 70lbs).

I am about to start All Pro's Butchered Edition 1 (though I have been lifting for over 2 years).

My new goal is to gain muscle to partly improve the appearance of my post-weight loss body, especially my stomach, and to eventually also burn off what remains of this obesity fat.

Lean bulking would guarantee muscle gain (potentially reaching my objective quicker?), however some additional fat too (but this can be minimised by using a 'lean' caloric surplus).

Maintaining will avoid this fat gain, though muscle growth could be smaller and make the whole process overly time consuming.

Before making such a detrimental decision I would be grateful for other opinions on what is best for me.

Based on my stats and the photos provided, should I continue maintaining or begin a lean bulk?

[Mrpb]

Judging by your stats I would think bulk, but then I saw your pics. Bulking is not a good idea yet.

My suggestion is to focus on making progressive overload on your lifts while eating enough to support that.

You say you've been lifting for 2 years. What are your lifts? What program did you do?

[OllieN96]

Judging by your stats I would think bulk, but then I saw your pics. Bulking is not a good idea yet.

My suggestion is to focus on making progressive overload on your lifts while eating enough to support that.

You say you've been lifting for 2 years. What are your lifts? What program did you do?

By 'lifting' I mean mostly my own splits.

1). Would I still gain the same amount of initial muscle at maintenance (on the proven beginner routine) as in a lean bulk (as there is only so much muscle your body can produce regardless of the quantity of a surplus if in one)?

2). Would I also be able to continue burning more of this fat at maintenance (on the beginner routine)?

[Mrpb]

By 'lifting' I mean mostly my own splits.

1). Would I still gain the same amount of initial muscle at maintenance (on the proven beginner routine) as in a lean bulk (as there is only so much muscle your body can produce regardless of the quantity of a surplus if in one)?

2). Would I also be able to continue burning more of this fat at maintenance (on the beginner routine)?

I need to know how much you lift on on your main lifts. Details please.

[OllieN96]

I need to know how much you lift on on your main lifts. Details please.

Squat: 88lbs
Bench: 88lbs
Row: 88lbs
SLD: 88lbs
OHP: 55lbs

[jnbrk]

Squat: 88lbs
Bench: 88lbs
Row: 88lbs
SLD: 88lbs
OHP: 55lbs

Lmao

Start deadlifting and bulk. Dont be so stressed about fat gain

[OllieN96]

Lmao

Start deadlifting and bulk. Dont be so stressed about fat gain

I have been suggested to be 16-18% body fat, which I find hard to believe looking at myself, but then shouldn't a long-term (1 year or more) lean bulk start from a low body fat percentage (as is often advised)?

[Mrpb]

Squat: 88lbs
Bench: 88lbs
Row: 88lbs
SLD: 88lbs
OHP: 55lbs

I won't sugar coat this. That's bad progress for 2 years lifting. You need to get a different program.

Get on Fierce 5 Novice Routine. Follow it to the T, including progression.

Do not bulk. You've got too much abdominal fat right now. You're still a beginner. You'll be able to make progress for several months without consuming a surplus.

To facilitate recomping I recommend eating more on workout days than on rest days, assuming your expenditure on rest days is lower.

[OllieN96]

I won't sugar coat this. That's bad progress for 2 years lifting. You need to get a different program.

Get on Fierce 5 Novice Routine. Follow it to the T, including progression.

Do not bulk. You've got too much abdominal fat right now. You're still a beginner. You'll be able to make progress for several months without consuming a surplus.

To facilitate recomping I recommend eating more on workout days than on rest days, assuming your expenditure on rest days is lower.

I agree about the lifting, but this was doing mostly high rep (high volume) with deliberately lower weight (to encourage maximum calorie burn) which with cardio helped me loose the weight.

Only now am I starting a beginner routine (All Pro's Butchered Edition 1).

I am receiving a lot of mixed messages from a variety of opinions.

Some (like yourself) say I should maintain as I can actually gain muscle (on a proven routine) equally as well as I could in a surplus (due to being a beginner and initial 'newb' gains?).

Then others tell me to lean bulk (on a well established lean surplus with cardio included) to build the needed (they suggest) foundation to then, in a second cut, burn these last pockets of fat with.

So, you can understand my uncertainty.

[atgbrahsrs]

I agree about the lifting, but this was doing mostly high rep (high volume) with deliberately lower weight (to encourage maximum calorie burn) which with cardio helped me loose the weight.

Only now am I starting a beginner routine (All Pro's Butchered Edition 1).

I am receiving a lot of mixed messages from a variety of opinions.

Some (like yourself) say I should maintain as I can actually gain muscle (on a proven routine) equally as well as I could in a surplus (due to being a beginner and initial 'newb' gains?).

Then others tell me to lean bulk (on a well established lean surplus with cardio included) to build the needed (they suggest) foundation to then, in a second cut, burn these last pockets of fat with.

So, you can understand my uncertainty.

listen to MRPB

and I would go with Fierce 5

[Mrpb]

I agree about the lifting, but this was doing mostly high rep (high volume) with deliberately lower weight (to encourage maximum calorie burn) which with cardio helped me loose the weight.

That was a bad idea. You could have built much more muscle by following an appropriate program.

That All Pro program is another one with high reps and it's totally NOT what YOU need.

Fierce 5 allows for much faster progression.

Only now am I starting a beginner routine (All Pro's Butchered Edition 1).

I am receiving a lot of mixed messages from a variety of opinions.

Some (like yourself) say I should maintain as I can actually gain muscle (on a proven routine) equally as well as I could in a surplus (due to being a beginner and initial 'newb' gains?).

Then others tell me to lean bulk (on a well established lean surplus with cardio included) to build the needed (they suggest) foundation to then, in a second cut, burn these last pockets of fat with.

So, you can understand my uncertainty.

I understand. But bulking at your body fat % is just not smart.

The good news: you won't need a surplus to make progress for several months. See: http://muscleevo.net/lose-fat-gain-muscle/

Instead of thinking about cutting and bulking think about: how can I get my bench (and other lifts) to >150 pounds without getting fatter?

[OllieN96]

That was a bad idea. You could have built much more muscle by following an appropriate program.

That All Pro program is another one with high reps and it's totally NOT what YOU need.

Fierce 5 allows for much faster progression.



I understand. But bulking at your body fat % is just not smart.

The good news: you won't need a surplus to make progress for several months. See: http://muscleevo.net/lose-fat-gain-muscle/

Instead of thinking about cutting and bulking think about: how can I get my bench (and other lifts) to >150 pounds without getting fatter?

My only problem is that surely it is better I lean bulk to build an actual foundation (which I have little of) and then cut one last time before lean bulking for as long as is satisfactory.

The article suggests that unless you are overweight (which I am clearly not) you make literally no muscle gains but continue burning fat.

However, isn't doing this (as you say over 7 months) just an incredibly slow way of cutting, whereas a 9-12 month lean bulk followed by a 3 month cut would achieve the same, and more.

Any fat gained will be partly spread over the new mass, but most importantly, I will have something to cut down to.

I think the reason my stomach fat looks as bad as it does is due to it not being in excess, rather, that there is very little for it to cover, and so producing such a foundation (through a lean bulk) seems the best choice.

I'm not criticising, just giving a more detailed display of my position.

[Mrpb]

My only problem is that surely it is better I lean bulk to build an actual foundation (which I have little of) and then cut one last time before lean bulking for as long as is satisfactory.

No it isn't. Because your body fat is already high (>16%) "bulking" while gaining scale weight will likely lead to more fat gained on your abdominal area. This will reduce your insulin sensitivity, which will likely worsen your bulking results.

The one thing you don't understand (and most people don't understand) is that a surplus isn't necessary to gain muscle, especially not for beginner with higher body fat.

The article suggests that unless you are overweight (which I am clearly not) you make literally no muscle gains but continue burning fat.

You missed the important part:

Lean beginners gained 7 pounds of lean body mass while losing almost 6 pounds of fat in 10 weeks: http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/2/695.full

As a beginner (you) with higher body fat (you) you can do even better.

However, isn't doing this (as you say over 7 months) just an incredibly slow way of cutting, whereas a 9-12 month lean bulk followed by a 3 month cut would achieve the same, and more.

Any fat gained will be partly spread over the new mass, but most importantly, I will have something to cut down to.

I think the reason my stomach fat looks as bad as it does is due to it not being in excess, rather, that there is very little for it to cover, and so producing such a foundation (through a lean bulk) seems the best choice.

I'm not criticising, just giving a more detailed display of my position.

I don't think I can help you at this moment. You've got too many ideas in your head about 'how it works' that don't match reality.

Do what you want but remember: focus on making progress on your lifts. They need to be at least double, for starters.

Here's a good article written for skinny fats, don't focus too much on the numbers, focus on the message: http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/cure-for-skinny-fat

PS. "Any fat gained will be partly spread over the new mass"

probably most of it will accumulate around your mid section. You seem to have those genes.

[magician27]

Squat: 88lbs
Bench: 88lbs
Row: 88lbs
SLD: 88lbs
OHP: 55lbs

how do you manage to lift exactly same weight for all muscle groups ? looks like you arent pushing yourself and just picking a arbitrary weight

[OllieN96]

You missed the important part:

Lean beginners gained 7 pounds of lean body mass while losing almost 6 pounds of fat in 10 weeks: http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/2/695.full

As a beginner (you) with higher body fat (you) you can do even better.

Apologies, as indeed I did miss that part.

So what your saying is, I can still gain muscle (similar to that in a 'lean' surplus?) and simultaneously burn what remains of the fat on my abdomen?

I understand where you are coming from, as the ultimate goal is to get oneself in a position where you no longer need to 'bulk, then cut', and can instead lean bulk for an almost endless duration.

Do you have a rough time period of how long this (a recomp?) period will last for me?

[OllieN96]

how do you manager to lift exactly same weight for all muscle groups ? looks like you arent pushing yourself and just picking a arbitrary weight

I am still recovering from inguinal hernia surgery (over 3 months now), and so can only push myself too a certain extent.

However, I still found these numbers through a 10 rep max, and all are challenging to me, but as I recover more thoroughly the weight will certainly increase a lot.

[Mrpb]

Apologies, as indeed I did miss that part.

So what your saying is, I can still gain muscle (similar to that in a 'lean' surplus?) and simultaneously burn what remains of the fat on my abdomen?

Yes that's possible.

But here's what is even harder to get for most: you don't need to decide now if you're going to maintain or slow bulk.

Just start lifting on Fierce 5 and eat enough to fuel your progress. Maybe you can make perfect progress on 2500 calories. Maybe you need 2700 etc.

Focus on strength progress on Fierce 5. You should be adding weight to the bar every week.

Do you have a rough time period of how long this (a recomp?) period will last for me?

No that's impossible.

And if you can't push yourself to your max it will take very long.

[OllieN96]

Yes that's possible.

But here's what is even harder to get for most: you don't need to decide now if you're going to maintain or slow bulk.

Just start lifting on Fierce 5 and eat enough to fuel your progress. Maybe you can make perfect progress on 2500 calories. Maybe you need 2700 etc.

Focus on strength progress on Fierce 5. You should be adding weight to the bar every week.



No that's impossible.

And if you can't push yourself to your max it will take very long.

I'm using All Pro's Butchered Edition 1, which is quite different to the original routine.

You increase a rep per workout for a 2 week cycle, and then based on your 'test day' (maximum number of reps with respective weight) increase by as much as 10% or more.

It is far more aggressive than the original (equalising it with Fierce 5), and has been designed largely for beginner's seeking to build size and strength, making it perfect for me.

What is it that you think most people are misunderstanding?

I see a lot of people in my position or similar when asking what their goal should be receive almost a knee-jerk reaction from many to just 'bulk' or 'cut', and for such a reputable forum I would expect your opinion to be much more the rule considering the evidence behind it.

[Mrpb]

If you're still injured it would make sense to work on All Pro in the time being.

If you're recovered it will be a far slower way to make progress. Even plain vanilla Starting Strength would give you faster results.

Unfortunately you seem to think you already know everything, so giving you further advice is pointless. I wish you the best of luck.

[OllieN96]

Unfortunately you seem to think you already know everything, so giving you further advice is pointless. I wish you the best of luck.

It has not been my intention to come across this way.

I'm simply using these opportunities to learn from those with greater knowledge, as you would do too if you were a beginner.

Your advice has been very helpful, and has aided me in making my decision.

I will recomp, gaining muscle while also burning this fat until satisfactory, then re-evaluate and either continue this or progress into a lean bulk.

[Mrpb]

I will recomp, gaining muscle while also burning this fat until satisfactory, then re-evaluate and either continue this or progress into a lean bulk.

Only do this if it allows you to make progressive overload every week. If not, you'll need to eat more calories. So that's my advice: eat enough to fuel consistent progressive overload.

Beginners will make faster progress lifting with 5 reps vs. 10 reps. This is why Starting Strength, Stronglifts, ICF 5x5, Fierce 5 all use 5 reps on the compounds.

Progress in the 10 rep range is slower.

[OllieN96]

Only do this if it allows you to make progressive overload every week. If not, you'll need to eat more calories. So that's my advice: eat enough to fuel consistent progressive overload.

Beginners will make faster progress lifting with 5 reps vs. 10 reps. This is why Starting Strength, Stronglifts, ICF 5x5, Fierce 5 all use 5 reps on the compounds.

Progress in the 10 rep range is slower.

So to begin with should I stay at maintenance calories consistently (including my 3 body weight/cardio days and 1 rest day) so long as I continue to progress on my lifts.

When this stalls I enter a surplus (a mini 100 calorie one or more of a 'lean' 250?) and continue to progress on training (would this then stop fat loss?).

Also, I will stay with the All Pro E1 routine until I can safely lift heavier, and then switch routines to either F5 or one of the other 5x5s.

[Mrpb]

So to begin with should I stay at maintenance calories consistently (including my 3 body weight/cardio days and 1 rest day) so long as I continue to progress on my lifts.

When this stalls I enter a surplus (a mini 100 calorie one or more of a 'lean' 250?) and continue to progress on training (would this then stop fat loss?).

Also, I will stay with the All Pro E1 routine until I can safely lift heavier, and then switch routines to either F5 or one of the other 5x5s.

If your maintenance is 2500 start with that. Keep eating 2500. If you stall for one or two weeks increase to 2600 etc. Keep eating 2600 as long as you make progress. Stall for one or two weeks and increase to 2700.

Ideally you should not be getting fatter while doing this.

PS. if you're not able to push yourself this will not work. You shouldn't be eating a surplus if you can't push yourself.

[OllieN96]

If your maintenance is 2500 start with that. Keep eating 2500. If you stall for one or two weeks increase to 2600 etc. Keep eating 2600 as long as you make progress. Stall for one or two weeks and increase to 2700.

Ideally you should not be getting fatter while doing this.

PS. if you're not able to push yourself this will not work. You shouldn't be eating a surplus if you can't push yourself.

Along with not gaining fat, will doing the above allow me to continue burning off the remaining obesity fat?

I am nonetheless pushing myself (even while recovering) as my surgery area has made little to no response (especially negatives) to the heavy weight, which makes me confident in being able to sufficiently progress.

[NghiaP0801]

If you're still injured it would make sense to work on All Pro in the time being.

If you're recovered it will be a far slower way to make progress. Even plain vanilla Starting Strength would give you faster results.

Unfortunately you seem to think you already know everything, so giving you further advice is pointless. I wish you the best of luck.

Hi there!
I've seen your comment in this topic
It seems to me that you really understand how to get a better body ( I've seen your photo on bodyspace).
Here's my body's photo. I have a lot of belly fat. ( roughly calculated BF 13%) goo.gl/photos/sNnmvZyU3cimW7sw8
What do you think I should do now? I'm planning on losing fat before doing anything? Should I do it? Or shoud I start bulking?

Thanks for your help!

[Mrpb]

Hi there!
I've seen your comment in this topic
It seems to me that you really understand how to get a better body ( I've seen your photo on bodyspace).
Here's my body's photo. I have a lot of belly fat. ( roughly calculated BF 13%) goo.gl/photos/sNnmvZyU3cimW7sw8
What do you think I should do now? I'm planning on losing fat before doing anything? Should I do it? Or shoud I start bulking?

Thanks for your help!

Bulk slowly. 1-2 pounds per month is enough.

follow a good program like Fierce 5 Novice Routine. Get progressively stronger on all your lifts.

I suggest eating more on days you're lifting, assuming you're more active on those days.

[NghiaP0801]

Thanks for your quick response. So if my normal calories intake is around 2300. Should I maintain it or cut it down to 1900 to lose fat first ( with a diet high in protein)

[Mrpb]

Thanks for your quick response. So if my normal calories intake is around 2300. Should I maintain it or cut it down to 1900 to lose fat first ( with a diet high in protein)

As I just said: bulk slowly gaining 1 to 2 pounds per month. Gain ~20 pounds in the next year. Then consider if you need to cut.

[Micke93]

Sorry for taking over your question, but what about me, from my profile pic?

Bulk, deff or maintain?

Just started lifting since my freshman 15 beergut got to big and I have to make the equilibrium with some meaty arms haha

[Mrpb]

Sorry for taking over your question, but what about me, from my profile pic?

Bulk, deff or maintain?

Just started lifting since my freshman 15 beergut got to big and I have to make the equilibrium with some meaty arms haha

I wouldn't bulk yet.

Try to make progress while eating close to maintenance first. Use a surplus later when you need it.

Fierce 5 Novice routine is a good program.