I think I am officially confused...........

[KGonzo23]

Let me start by saying my primary focus is not to be able to bench 500lbs or squat 750lbs. I do not care how physically strong I am. My main goal is to bulk up. Lean muscle mass. Ripped muscles. Not the guy who cannot wipe his own arse big. But well defined traps, pecs, abs, etc.


Alright about a month ago I adopted Coolcicadas PPL routine and slightly modified it to fit my needs. I researched some exercises and asked numerous questions on the forum before modifying and thought I was doing it all right. I have been doing some extensive reading in the week since and believe I am now lost. Take for instance push day. My primary focus was constantly improving my flat bench press. I was determined to improve it every session as I believed I was building up chest size. Now today I read flat bench does nothing for chest (pec) size but is more a strength lift.

Below is a detailed by day outline of what I am currently doing. The way they are listed is the order I am doing them mas well. Can anybody please take a look and see what I am missing and/or make any suggestion.


Sunday / Push


Flat BB Bench Press 5 x 5
Seated DB Shoulder Press 5 x 5
Incline DB Press 5 x 5
DB Frontal Raise 3 x 10-12
Tricep Rope Push Downs 3 x 10-12
Seated DB Overhead Extensions 3 x 10-12
BB Shrugs 3 x 10-12


Monday / Pull


BB Deadlifts 5 x 5
One Armed DB Row 5 x 5
Pull Ups 5 x 5
Seated Cable Rows 3 x 10-12
Reverse Machine Flys 3 x 10-12
Standing Barbell Curl 3 x 10-12
DB Hammer Curls 3 x 10-12


Tuesday / Legs


Narrow Stance BB Squats 5 x 5
Seated Leg Press 3 x 10-12
Seated Leg Extensions 3 x 10-12
Seated Leg Curls 3 x 10-12
Standing Calf Raises 3 x 10-12


Wednesday


REST



Thursday start over with Pull


Again please let me know what I can improve on. I spend countless hours a day reading others posts and topic to try and fine tune but after today think I may be running around in circles. Just to be clear I am still cutting so am at a slight deficit still but have not hit any plateaus in my lifts. Week to week I do make progress. Some weeks upping the weight 10lbs or slightly less, others increasing reps or sets. I do understand that until I switch and eat at surplus the mass will either come very minimal or none at all. I just want to make sure what I am doing is correct while I try to finish this cut. What I am doing now is exactly what I plan on doing when I begin my bulk so I would rather iron out issues now.

Even while cutting I have increased my lifts dramatically from when I first started. Last March first day at the gym I was barely able to bench 90 lbs on the smith machine, 1 45lb plate on either side. Now I am repping 185lbs for 5 x 5. I know not the greatest but all that while during a cut

Please help my routine



CLIFFS

- Research ALOT
-Modified Coolcicada PPL
-Confused if what I am doing is suited for my goal
-Any help or changes you would make???

[magician27]

Now today I read flat bench does nothing for chest (pec) size but is more a strength lift.

i think thats a moronic statement , and usually ppl who say this dont know how to bench. never seen anyone with small pecs benching 400 lbs

[SuffolkPunch]

^ Exactly, you can't react every time you hear a wacky statement like that.

You must have read over and over that strength and mass are virtually the same thing - how does a movement a) allow you to move a lot of weight and b) improve strength long term without activating and growing large numbers of muscle fibers?

And where exactly did poor old Coolcicada get it wrong?

[bgmscl]

Surely if you stick any routine out until you can bench 400 lbs you will be strong and have a big chest. I have wondered the same though, is my routine suited for my goal? I don't think it is. I know Suffolk that you have quoted a website that cites studies that there is no such thing as a strength and hypertrophy range, but many other sources beg to differ. Strength is almost the same a muscle size, but it is not equivalent, and from my reading, many programs, particularly the 5x5's, do not immediately provide the kind of stimulus that is going to result in changes in body composition. There are plenty of testimonials to the fact, people who have been on certain programs for a year or more but just aren't seeing the kinds of results they hoped for.

The question is not "will we have a big chest when we can bench 400 lbs", of course we will, the quest is do we need to be able to bench 400 lbs in order to produce the kind of muscle mass that translates into a nice looking body? I think the answer is no. Pushing on with a fast progression will get you stronger sure, and as a side effect you will see some muscle growth, but it primarily seems to force neurological adaptations, and that does not always translate to a more defined physique. Over and over again i read that for muscle hypertrophy you need to lift in the 8-12 rep range, and just as lifting in the lower rep ranges must by extension cause some muscle growth in the longer term, lifting in the higher rep ranges must also cause strength gains in the long run. The question is which is going to produce the result i want in the shortest amount of time. For me that is which is going to produce visible changes in my body composition the fastest, and everything i read, except from you, says that 3 sets of 10 reps is the magic number.

Op, the bench is a good chest exercise. Drop to a wight you can do sets of 10 with and base your progression around that. You should feel the difference immediately. I know i did. You will feel that the exercise has penetrated deeper into the muscle. Progressing the weight will be slower, but you will work in such a way that your muscles are stimulated to grow. I am like you, i want to look better, I want the strength increase to be the side effect, not the other way around.(I find it unlikely that ill ever have any reason to press 400lbs off my chest and by itself it is not an appetizing motivator. For the purpose of making muscles grow and putting on size, everything I read aside from the comments on this board says that 3 set of reps around 10 is the best way to do it.

[SuffolkPunch]

^ The claim is not that barbell flat benching is all you need to develop a chest. The claim made by OP is that benching ONLY produces strength which is nonsense.

For muscular development, you do need more variety over time as you become more experienced - but many people don't seem to make it to this level because they don't get the fundamentals in place. If you can't at least kickstart development using a bench press then you have other issues. I would start with a basic chest press and only add accessories or more volume in response to stalls in progress. Overcomplicating your routine ahead of time does not make your progress faster, probably the reverse.

[KGonzo23]

^ The claim is not that barbell flat benching is all you need to develop a chest. The claim made by OP is that benching ONLY produces strength which is nonsense.

For muscular development, you do need more variety over time as you become more experienced - but many people don't seem to make it to this level because they don't get the fundamentals in place. If you can't at least kickstart development using a bench press then you have other issues. I would start with a basic chest press and only add accessories or more volume in response to stalls in progress. Overcomplicating your routine ahead of time does not make your progress faster, probably the reverse.

So would you say my split is fine just drop the number of sets and increase the number of reps with less weight?

[SuffolkPunch]

I haven't analysed it in detail I was just curious what you changed vs. standard Coolcicada.

The volume question can't be answered simply - it depends what YOU require to produce a growth stimulus. How many hard sets per bodypart were you doing on your previous routine? (per week and per session). Have you deloaded or had time off between then and now?

Having said that, a useful rule of thumb is that number of sets per bodypart per week should be in the range 8 - 20 so it looks like you've exceeded that by a long way. Unless your 5x5s are ramped (not all sets are "hard"), it looks like you are doing too much volume already - and intensity will suffer as a consequence.

[KGonzo23]

I haven't analysed it in detail I was just curious what you changed vs. standard Coolcicada.

The volume question can't be answered simply - it depends what YOU require to produce a growth stimulus. How many hard sets per bodypart were you doing on your previous routine? (per week and per session). Have you deloaded or had time off between then and now?

Sunday/Push I replaced side later DB raise for Front DB raises. The laterals were killing my rotator cuff

Monday/Pull I replaced bent over BB rows with One armed DB rows. I replaced Wide Grip Pull Downs with Pull ups. And replaced face pulls with Machine reverse flys.

I believe that is it

[SuffolkPunch]

Those aren't unreasonable - although I think front raises are redundant if you do plenty of bench and OHP.

See my edit regarding volume and sets per week.

[KGonzo23]

Those aren't unreasonable - although I think front raises are redundant if you do plenty of bench and OHP.

See my edit regarding volume and sets per week.

Anything you would suggest to replace the front raises with??

As far as the sets/reps edit its funny you say that. Typically I do all my sets and reps at a heavy weight to where Im constantly struggling. I started to notice lately my workouts are not as intense. I am feeling the movements and the muscle work but do not feel my HR increasing or the blood flowing.

Last night I tried to ramp the reps throughout my workout and it felt pretty good. Was considering using Sun, Mon, Tues sessions as heavy sets then Thurs, Fri, Sat sessions as ramped sets.

What you think?

[SuffolkPunch]

I don't think you need it at all. Coolcicada put side raises in because the medial delts need more than just overhead pressing.

A change of parameters like that may help but I find when you are coming to the limit of sustainable volume, it's better just to deload or reset. Start back with moderate volume and control the rate at which you add volume.

http://strengtheory.com/making-your-...wo-quick-tips/