Pushing for the sub 6 mile... I just can't do it! Advice/Tips please!

[Jason193]

I hit 6.08 the other day, which is from 6.09. I still don't get the feeling that I'm making enough progress.


I'm 45. I've been bodybuilding for the past few years, and I'm now at 204 pounds. Since I started adding more running into my workouts I've dropped from almost 230 pounds.

I'm definitely no newcomer when it comes to working out or keeping track of diet and my workout regiment, but I could use a running coach or some advice.

Any tips or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[Hooverville]

? Your on a bodybuilding forum. Don't you think the question would be better asked on a running board?

Good luck.

[subscap]

I hit 6.08 the other day, which is from 6.09. I still don't get the feeling that I'm making enough progress.


I'm 45. I've been bodybuilding for the past few years, and I'm now at 204 pounds. Since I started adding more running into my workouts I've dropped from almost 230 pounds.

I'm definitely no newcomer when it comes to working out or keeping track of diet and my workout regiment, but I could use a running coach or some advice.

Any tips or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Second the response that youre not going to get much advice here. Most people here tell others not to run or do cardio (or basically just do warm up amounts).

How tall are you? You're close to breaking 6:00 and 200+ lbs is a lot of weight to be carrying if speed is your goal. I focused on endurance for the last 10 years and am now transitioning back into mainly weight training. I'm 6ft+ and didn't make solid improvement in my running speeds until I got down into the low 180s.

I think if speed is you're main goal, focus on that but accept that it means losses in some of your competing goals. You're close though. Good luck.

[waco]

Break it up into smaller faster runs, also run a half mile then sprint for a hundred yards then run another half mile for two miles. You have to get used to running at a faster rate, and you can't do that stagnant at a six miler, just like lifting.

Edit: what's your run goals? Half marathon, marathon, 10k or kick ass on the 5k?

[steffo99]

If it is just a matter of shaving a few secs of that time, I would just do some one lap intervals (400 m) at race pace or slightly faster.
Dropping weight would obviously help as well. Just wondering why this is important, but I guess that's up to you.

Many years ago we also used these tables from some track book that sort of gave you an idea the level your interval training
was at..gave that session a point score, which you could then "translate" into an equivalent level mile time or what have you.
Not sure if these are findable on the net today, but could be a tool if you find.

[SprinterChick]

Your running goals are definitely what you need to consider with your mile time. Different distances (from 100m to the mile to the marathon) use different energy systems in your body and to get better proficiency at a particular distance, you need to train the right energy system. I know that trackstarusa.com has specific training plans for specific distances including the mile so you may want to check that out.
http://trackstarusa.com/1600m-workouts/ is just a part of it but there's a full program you can buy

However, do take note that when you get very specific you may lose in other areas. I used to be a 5k person before I switched to sprints and while I've made huge gains in speed and the weight I can push in the gym... my endurance has been sacrificed and I'd die running for 8 miles as I used to on Saturday nights but I love competing in the sprints now. So you really need to see what your goals are, how to work towards them, what sacrifices it may entail, whether you want to do it and if the answer is still yes... then do it.

But yeah, mile-specific running workouts are ultimately going to be what you'll need to improve your mile.

[drudixon]

Day 1 3 miles xcountry.
Day 2 10 quarter mile Hill climbs
Day 3 2 miles rubber track
Day 4 6x 400 meter sprints
Day 5 3 miles xcountry

After a month of this, trade day 3 for 6x 800 meter sprints.

Kid in my HS did just this and broke 5 minutes at 15. I was a sprinter and jumper, so my regimen was different.

[alwayschestday]

Its like lifting basics at a plateau. if you want to lift more eat more, if you want to run faster eat less. Just train fast and smart. Jump rope, fartleks etc. theres all sort of mile training online. That was my goal last year. Bench 315 and run under 6 in same workout being sub 190#. This year its bench 315, run under 6 and deadlift 4?? (tbd) in same workout. Running a mile should be judged as importantly as Benching or squatting numbers. Actually IMO It should be put ahead of squatting, but thats me.. Good for you.. and good luck..

[crupiea]

Obviously you need to run a bot faster but there is a trick to it.

Most will say to take long strides like they do in the olympics but the fact is your not an olympic athlete and they train completely different from the normal person.

For the normal guy to accellerate the key is shorter strides but more of them. Imagine a cartoon running away with the blur of legs and thats what you are striving for.

You know as well as anyone that you are breathing super hard doing these runs and that is a limiting factor. Again the way to overcome it is shorter strides but more of them.

Now for the meat.

next run after you get warmed up, designate a speeding up portion and start taking the shorter strides, much shorter. Stand up straight and you will feel the stress shift from your calves to your thighs. Perfect as they should be doing the work in the first place. Also you will notice that you can go faster easier and it will be easier to breathe.

of course its sort of counter intuitive to do this but it works. Its also weird to do but once you get used to it you will really start laying down some times. the key is where you are sore the next day. if in the calves then your strides are too long and counter productive. The thighs need to do the work as they can handle it.

I used to be 320 lbs. lost about 100 lbs while running, lifting and dieting. My first half marathon was at a 7:05 pace for the whole thing. i am no speed demon by any means but using this technique provided me with what I needed to go faster. My fastest mile is 5:46.

Every time i post this people jump in and say how i am completely wrong but of course, i am the only one on the track come training day.

[Vanquish12]

First, the fact that you are 45yo, are 204lbs, and can run close to 6min for the mile is impressive in and of itself.

Try this weekly workout and see if this helps.
Monday: 10 miles at 8min mile pace
Tuesday: Track work- 6 400m sprints at 80sec. each. Shuffle jog 200m for rest after each 400. Warm up 2 miles, cool down 2 miles.
Since you need to run 4 90sec 400's to achieve a 6 min mile, you need to do repeat 400's faster than your race pace. Start with 80sec.
Wednesday: 6 mile run at 8min mile pace
Thursday: Find a steep hill of at least 100-150meters. Warm up 2 miles, then do 8 hill repeats, then cool down with 2 miles.
Friday: 6 mile run at 8min mile pace
Saturday: 10 mile run at 8min mile pace
Sunday: OFF
Your track workouts are very important to developing your speed, so do not miss these. As you get closer to the day you want to break 6min, you need to sharpen your leg speed. Drop the 400 repeats and add some 200 repeats and drop your weekly mileage. Your 200's should be at 35sec. Rest 1min between. You should do this at least 4 weeks out from your "race day". You want to be fresh, not heavy in the legs. I would try this weekly routine for 12 weeks. Also, ask someone much faster than you to pace you. Stop over at the local high school. Tell the kids what you want to do. Most decent high school distance runners can job a 6min mile, so they will be happy to pace you. Kids love that kind of stuff, I know we did when I was a runner in high school and college.
Google Arthur Lydiard. Check out his training methods. In my opinion, one of the greatest middle and long distance coaches of all time.
I ran 4:10 for the mile when I was 19, but those days are long gone. I am envious of your goal and condition, best of luck and let us know what time you end up running.

[Squid24]

Wow, so many different ppl and did not see to many tell you to go somewhere else..except for the 1.

I, when I was oh so much younger, ran a sub 5 in high school.

You need, like others have mentioned, some long distance runs. Some shorter long distance runs. Short sprints and some long sprints. All of these during the week will help get that lower.

But like the one person said....45, over 200lbs and running a 6min mile? I would take that today.....lol

[mrc19888]

I ran 5:06 mile when I was 19 drunk in the dead of winter. Of course I can run 1/4 mile in under 52 seconds so my speed helps but never trained for it just been naturally very gifted in that department. My best advice is be born with better genes for it. I ran 6:13 in 7th grade. Before I hit puberty.

[DCSpartan]

Allright, a ten mile run isnt going to help your one mile time.

You need to do lots of intervals. Two times a week run quarters. One day a week do hill sprints, do some kettlebell swings another day. If you want throw in a nice recoery run of 3-5 miles at a real slow, confortable pace. You are getting close.

[Hooverville]

Wow, so many different ppl and did not see to many tell you to go somewhere else..except for the 1.

I, when I was oh so much younger, ran a sub 5 in high school.

You need, like others have mentioned, some long distance runs. Some shorter long distance runs. Short sprints and some long sprints. All of these during the week will help get that lower.

But like the one person said....45, over 200lbs and running a 6min mile? I would take that today.....lol

I didn't tell him to go anywhere. I just thought asking a bunch of lifters was going to garner a ton of poor advice, and it did.


OP, get super technical. Look at your foot strike and try to improve your stride efficiency. You need to improve your speed through economy of motion, while not sacrificing your legs in the process.

Again good luck.

[drudixon]

I didn't tell him to go anywhere. I just thought asking a bunch of lifters was going to garner a ton of poor advice, and it did.


OP, get super technical. Look at your foot strike and try to improve your stride efficiency. You need to improve your speed through economy of motion, while not sacrificing your legs in the process.

Again good luck.

What specifically was poor advice?

Generally enough running and a runner will find the most economical way to do it. It's not much different than power lifting. Sometimes inspection is called for, but usually not.

Obvious ones are don't sway side to side, don't shrug shoulders, don't clench hands, relax jaw, develop rhythm for breathing, and learn a preferred stride length.

1 mile times are more about speed than endurance, so Op needs to power up per se.

[Hooverville]

What specifically was poor advice?

Generally enough running and a runner will find the most economical way to do it. It's not much different than power lifting. Sometimes inspection is called for, but usually not.

Obvious ones are don't sway side to side, don't shrug shoulders, don't clench hands, relax jaw, develop rhythm for breathing, and learn a preferred stride length.

1 mile times are more about speed than endurance, so Op needs to power up per se.

Agreed he needs to power up. But on his mile.

Dru, you yourself said running is like powerlifting so would you agree that in order to squat more you should squat more? In this case he needs to focus on a mile, with speed and economy.

I have run sub 6 at 200lbs. It is not fun. Adding in sprints (true sprints) for a 45 year old 200lb. Male is asking for injury. Don't even get me started on trail runs. I loved them when I was younger and they great for fun. But my personal opinion, which I didn't give in the beginning is that he just needs to keep it up and revisit his basics.

I am here to try and help newbs, like I was 2 years ago with lifting advice. I just really think if you want advice for a runner there are very good forums out there for that.

[drudixon]

Agreed he needs to power up. But on his mile.

Dru, you yourself said running is like powerlifting so would you agree that in order to squat more you should squat more? In this case he needs to focus on a mile, with speed and economy.

I have run sub 6 at 200lbs. It is not fun. Adding in sprints (true sprints) for a 45 year old 200lb. Male is asking for injury. Don't even get me started on trail runs. I loved them when I was younger and they great for fun. But my personal opinion, which I didn't give in the beginning is that he just needs to keep it up and revisit his basics.

I am here to try and help newbs, like I was 2 years ago with lifting advice. I just really think if you want advice for a runner there are very good forums out there for that.

No way I could run a 6 min mile at this point, tho I'm very curious what my javelin throw would be at this point.

The relevance to posting here would be better put if he asked how to achieve 6min miles while lifting, which who knows if Op does or not.

[FlashGordan]

Google up speedplay or fartleks, its more of a concept than a set workout.

Grow a beard. Its worth at least 30-40 seconds in a 5k.

[bradandblake]

Mind blown at op goals.

[congore]

I'm a Level 1 USATF coach, but that doesn't mean s**t since I don't know how I you got to your current level. I primarily focus on training my kid for 400m and 800m, but the mile is also a mid distance race. My best advice if you are serious about training for the mile is to pick up a copy of "Daniel's Running Formula - 3rd Edition" from Amazon for $20. Not sure what strength training you are doing, but you may want to move more towards power lifts like cleans, push press, lunges, and jump squats. Focus on bar speed with your other lifts (bench...). Strength does help with running speed, but only up to a point. If you do plan to do explosive speed work, then find an GHD to strengthen your posterior and prevent the dreaded "pulled hammies".

If this is a casual goal, then I would suggest doing 3 runs a week: 1) long run of over +5 miles, 2) mid distance repeats of 1200m to 2400m, and 3) a speed day to work on running form 200m to 400m. No sure what your schedule is like, but you probably run regularly so adding an additional long run may bee doable. I personally mainly do sprints and hills for conditioning, so I admire your drive to get faster in the mile. I personally hate long distance runs and would rather do jujitsu, MMA, racquetball, or damn near anything else. I got USATF certified since I couldn't find any good mid distance running coaches in the are for my kids. Also, knees and hips are what start to break down as you get older. Make sure you are running on trails or a track to save the joints. Good luck.

[GnomusMaximus]

Can't tell it now because I am a fat arse, but there was a time in my life where I was a fairly successful soccer player and as a result a good middle distance guy. Low 5's were pretty easy for me, even on the road. All the training advice you got here is awesome and better than anything I could give, but with me shaving those last couple seconds off always came down to rhythm. Just little changes in tempo and recognizing when I was coming off it made all the difference.

[Jason193]

What specifically was poor advice?

Generally enough running and a runner will find the most economical way to do it. It's not much different than power lifting. Sometimes inspection is called for, but usually not.

Obvious ones are don't sway side to side, don't shrug shoulders, don't clench hands, relax jaw, develop rhythm for breathing, and learn a preferred stride length.

1 mile times are more about speed than endurance, so Op needs to power up per se.

I agree, I think I need to be more technical to get to where I want to go. I'm going to try out a couple of the suggestions that have been mentioned in hopes that I achieve my goal. Uphill battle - but i'm always up for a challenge.

Many thanks for all the resourceful responses everyone. Will check back in due time!

[PrinceDaddy]

Speed work at track. Track interval, fartleks coupled with hill runs. Helps to be lighter. I always wanted to run sub 5. Got 5:02 or so, but my problem was I would go out too fast, Lap 1 at 1:08, then Lap 4 at 1:31.

[Aspenextreme03]

I would recommend reading the book "run less, run faster" by Bill Pierce. It is a great book that focuses on hitting specific targets which in turns makes you faster.

I have it and it has been useful when i am training for a certain running goal.

[pryme]

I ran a sub 6 back when I was 20-21. Not even close now.
Still have 4.9 40 speed though when I was 245lbs. Ran 4.65 at 232 and 30 years old.

Never liked long runs. Not built for it.

[subscap]

Don't have advice but am happy to see my expectations busted and people weighing in with what seems like legit running advice (not an expert; can't evaluate the suggestions). My prior experiences in these forums have been for people to shoot down questions asking about running if not related to BB goals.

I ran a sub 6:30 as a freshman in college (20+ years ago), and got close again last spring at around 6:40.


OP, definitly post back when you break the mark.

[mikenorwood961]

Interval training/speed work, and break in a lightweight pair of running shoes. Use the light shoes on days you are timing yourself, they will increase your time. Don't wear lightweight shoes every time you run, they have less support and can trash your feet (I know from experience).

[stonecold123]

Usain bolt training

http://www.details.com/story/runner-...crets-and-diet

[Jason193]

Speed work at track. Track interval, fartleks coupled with hill runs. Helps to be lighter. I always wanted to run sub 5. Got 5:02 or so, but my problem was I would go out too fast, Lap 1 at 1:08, then Lap 4 at 1:31.

Interesting. I'm going to try this - it seems like it could help. Wow though, 5:02 is still great. Keep at it!

[01tj]

Break it up into smaller faster runs, also run a half mile then sprint for a hundred yards then run another half mile for two miles. You have to get used to running at a faster rate, and you can't do that stagnant at a six miler, just like lifting.

Edit: what's your run goals? Half marathon, marathon, 10k or kick ass on the 5k?

I was going to suggest hill sprints. Intervals are great for getting you in shape