Andrew Wiggins On Kobe: "He's The Greatest Of My Generation"

[tonyparker69]

@ Clutch, What are you talking about. We are saying Kobe has bad shot selection because of his shooting percentage compared to how hes compared in the media. Hes way less efficient than other top 10 players. I'm a lakers fan but I also have eyes. He use to take fade aways in the corner with two defenders in his face. Was it sick when he made it ? Yea but it was poor shot selection.

Playing with Shaq is an extreme luxury. The other team has to pretty much double team Shaq which means a lot more openings for other guys. How many people would take Prime Kobe over Prime Shaq if you were starting a team. I know id be taking Prime Shaq all day.

I'd take prime Shaq over prime Jordan or Kobe or any guard. Doesn't mean Shaq was better than Jordan. You always build around the big man.

[ClutchAnalyst]

@ Clutch, What are you talking about. We are saying Kobe has bad shot selection because of his shooting percentage compared to how hes compared in the media. Hes way less efficient than other top 10 players. I'm a lakers fan but I also have eyes. He use to take fade aways in the corner with two defenders in his face. Was it sick when he made it ? Yea but it was poor shot selection.

Playing with Shaq is an extreme luxury. The other team has to pretty much double team Shaq which means a lot more openings for other guys. How many people would take Prime Kobe over Prime Shaq if you were starting a team. I know id be taking Prime Shaq all day.

do me a favor, post his stats and discuss why his percentages are bad compared to his peers so i can prove to you that you have no idea wtf you are talking about

[broboma2012]

you dumb homie. you keep things the same where you can. the 91 bulls had one of the easiest schedules in the league. the 93 bulls and 94 bulls both had a fairly lower-middle of the road schedule. both had identical team but jordan, both had phil jackson, etc. the only change removing jordan had was losing 2 games. is pretty obvious why i dont put much stock into 91, easy schedule = more wins. similar schedule difficulty? 2 win drop off. such best ever

Looks like someone is regressing. We were making so much progress with you. Let's pretend that I didn't just school on the the possibility if there being multiple factors in win totals from year to year.

How do you make an argument that there was no drop off when the bulls had not lost a playoff series in 3 years and couldn't even get out of the 2nd round (losing to a team the mj led bulls literally never lost to). Are you seriously comfortable saying their was no drop off there? Is there not a big difference between A second round losing team and a championship team?

[broboma2012]

lost what? are we competing for something?

The argument that Kobe didn't have one of the worst finals performances ever. Saying he is second worst is one of the weirder nits to pick

[ajctennis]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bryanko01.html

@ clutch, I didnt say compared to his peers, I said compared to top 10 peers in the NBA. That Kobe is overrated in the sense he is not as good as the media portrayed him to be when you take his actual stats into account for his career.

[ClutchAnalyst]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...bryanko01.html

@ clutch, I didnt say compared to his peers, I said compared to top 10 peers in the NBA. That Kobe is overrated in the sense he is not as good as the media portrayed him to be when you take his actual stats into account for his career.

bro, i understand what you are clearly saying, trust me. the thing is you are not getting what i am saying.

prove to me why his stats are overrated. saying the media overrated him (when they clearly underrate him), is not an answer.

give me mathematical reasons as to why his fg% or ts% or ef% being less = x magnitudes of "bad"

[ajctennis]

Well we can all agree that his stats are below most top 10 players if not all. You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying he sucked. Im saying Kobe was a great player but he could have been far better if he had chosen to pass when the difficulty of the shot was enormous and low percentage. I'll agree that FG by itself is not everything. There is much more to take into account. But when you compare him to top 10 players who put up almost as many points if not more at higher fg percentage you start to see it.

For example everyone thinks Kobe is the black mamba = clutch because of some of great buzzer beaters he has had. The media doesnt really shot the shots he misses. If you look at the stats, in the last 24 seconds of games in crunch time situations hes shot about 30-35 percent. An example of how the media distorts our image of players.

[tonyparker69]

Looks like someone is regressing. We were making so much progress with you. Let's pretend that I didn't just school on the the possibility if there being multiple factors in win totals from year to year.

How do you make an argument that there was no drop off when the bulls had not lost a playoff series in 3 years and couldn't even get out of the 2nd round (losing to a team the mj led bulls literally never lost to). Are you seriously comfortable saying their was no drop off there? Is there not a big difference between A second round losing team and a championship team?

given the exact same team, coach and similar schedule difficulty, jordan's team without him is a 2nd round playoff team and they win with him.

so what you're saying is, jordan's impact is way less than somebody like lebrons and that he's a better version of klay thompson.

[broboma2012]

given the exact same team, coach and similar schedule difficulty, jordan's team without him is a 2nd round playoff team and they win with him.

so what you're saying is, jordan's impact is way less than somebody like lebrons and that he's a better version of klay thompson.

Ladies and gentlemen... Tonyparkinson

[tonyparker69]

Ladies and gentlemen... Tonyparkinson

no no, seriously. it sounds out there but it's true when you think about it. he's a guy that puts a playoff team over the top. he's basically a better version of klay thompson. replace curry with an average pg and gs goes nowhere. replace klay with an average sg and they're a playoff team but not winners.

[broboma2012]

In conclusion a team that wins 11 less games, scores 7 less ppg on worse efficiency, and their margin of victory was cut in half, But managed to adjust their style to be a grind it out defensive team to compensate due to having the defenders and the greatest coach of all time, is the 'same'.

[broboma2012]

no no, seriously. it sounds out there but it's true when you think about it. he's a guy that puts a playoff team over the top. he's basically a better version of klay thompson. replace curry with an average pg and gs goes nowhere. replace klay with an average sg and they're a playoff team but not winners.

Ladies and gentleman...


TonyParkinson takes a trip to hypothetical land

[tonyparker69]

Ladies and gentleman...


TonyParkinson takes a trip to hypothetical land

nah, one is confirmed fact, that jordan's team only dropped 2 games without him and was a contending team, with him they're a championship team. even you've admitted that one. the other is just common sense, unless you think klay is carrying that team and not steph.

i know it sucks to realize that jordan really didn't have that big of an impact as the gospel of jordan would like us to believe, but it is the truth.

[broboma2012]

nah, one is confirmed fact, that jordan's team only dropped 2 games without him and was a contending team, with him they're a championship team. even you've admitted that one. the other is just common sense, unless you think klay is carrying that team and not steph.

i know it sucks to realize that jordan really didn't have that big of an impact as the gospel of jordan would like us to believe, but it is the truth.

You keep saying 2. They won 11 less games. That is fact. Pretty big drop off imo

[tonyparker69]

You keep saying 2. They won 11 less games. Pretty big drop off imo

2 regular season games obviously.

it is a big drop off, there is a significant difference between being a 2nd round team and a championship team. i just think somebody regarded as the greatest ever should have a bigger impact than just being the piece that puts contenders over the top and makes them a winning team.

same deal with removing a GOAT tier player from championship teams, they really shouldn't be contending just based off the impact that that player has, creating space, drawing defenders, etc. like removing lebron and going from a 60+ win team to one that didn't even win 20 games, that's a huge swing. lakers championship caliber team with magic in 91, barely .500 in 92, etc.

[orderoutofchaos]

Kobe was seemingly great 10 years ago but now that time has gone by and kobe is living the bum dream currently it doesnt seem like Kobe was very impressive. Without Shaq Kobe was shooting the Lakers out of the finals 3 years in a row. He was shut down by Paul Pierce twice and bailed out by his non spastic teammates twice. Its not anything legendary really. The guy practically wanted to go all out Iverson and shoot his team in the foot but bailed out. Thats not legendary. Its not goat
Ya he was a fun player and an awesome persona and a handsome guy but the goat of a generation? No offense to him or the fans but baskrtball had realostically sucked since Jordan retired and Jordan is the all generation great, he would dominate Bill Russells era and Lebrons era.

[MontelWilliams]

Wiggins the king of saltiness. He's mad he isn't playing with lebron and going to the playoffs while in the meantime he is fighting to not be in last place. Scrub/10. Would rather have dellavedova over him

[Steemboat]

Wiggins the king of saltiness. He's mad he isn't playing with lebron and going to the playoffs while in the meantime he is fighting to not be in last place.

That's the first thing I thought of too, more of a subtle jab at LeBron than praising Kobe.

[broboma2012]

2 regular season games obviously.

it is a big drop off, there is a significant difference between being a 2nd round team and a championship team. i just think somebody regarded as the greatest ever should have a bigger impact than just being the piece that puts contenders over the top and makes them a winning team.

same deal with removing a GOAT tier player from championship teams, they really shouldn't be contending just based off the impact that that player has, creating space, drawing defenders, etc. like removing lebron and going from a 60+ win team to one that didn't even win 20 games, that's a huge swing. lakers championship caliber team with magic in 91, barely .500 in 92, etc.

The cavs underwent massive changes that included coaching and players outside if lebron. Also, they did not go from a championship team. They went from contending to sucking. The bulls went from 3 peat legendary dynasty to losing in the second round.

Considering relative to the bulls outside of mj the cavs roster underwent massive change... I Would say that is a comparable drop off

As far as magic goes

From 91 to 92

Worthy played .... 25 less games and dropped off statistically

Sam Perkins played.... 10 less games an was battling through injuries as well

Divac played .... 50 less games


So that is 85 games missing from their starting lineup NOT INCLUDING MAGIC


Speaking of which, was a guy who couldn't win unless he had three other hall of famers on his team.

[BloodyBaron]

Wiggins the king of saltiness. He's mad he isn't playing with lebron and going to the playoffs while in the meantime he is fighting to not be in last place. Scrub/10. Would rather have dellavedova over him

How fukking delusional can you be LMAO.

[ClutchAnalyst]

Well we can all agree that his stats are below most top 10 players if not all. You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying he sucked. Im saying Kobe was a great player but he could have been far better if he had chosen to pass when the difficulty of the shot was enormous and low percentage. I'll agree that FG by itself is not everything. There is much more to take into account. But when you compare him to top 10 players who put up almost as many points if not more at higher fg percentage you start to see it.

For example everyone thinks Kobe is the black mamba = clutch because of some of great buzzer beaters he has had. The media doesnt really shot the shots he misses. If you look at the stats, in the last 24 seconds of games in crunch time situations hes shot about 30-35 percent. An example of how the media distorts our image of players.

you still have no clue to what im saying.

kobe averaged less than more missed shot per game than jordan, despite having tougher defense + worse shots.

the difference in their percentages, when accounting for adjustments, don't portray what you are trying to claim.

also, the media never says kobe is clutch, instead ESPN always tries to portray other players as more clutch by picking arbitrary numbers to base their statistics off of, being selective with the broader definition of clutch.

[MontelWilliams]

Still salty because i negged you? Haha

[hublife]

here's whats up: bulls win 57 games with jordan one year, take literally the exact same team into next year without jordan and they win 55.

lol @ using multiple years, but who was controlling for variables? scienceboma2012 >.>

you can't even provide ONE example of a player regarded as one of the best ever that leaves his team and the same team next year wins about the same amount of games except jordan.lmao

49ers went 14-2 with Joe Montana riding pine after he came back from getting injured the year before.

Team had a slight dip the year after he was hurt and went 10-6 and then rebounded with a 14-2 record. Only comparison I could find since Montana was considered the GOAT at the time.

[ThickMeat]

you dumb homie. you keep things the same where you can. the 91 bulls had one of the easiest schedules in the league. the 93 bulls and 94 bulls both had a fairly lower-middle of the road schedule. both had identical team but jordan, both had phil jackson, etc. the only change removing jordan had was losing 2 games. is pretty obvious why i dont put much stock into 91, easy schedule = more wins. similar schedule difficulty? 2 win drop off. such best ever

they werent the same team

94 bulls added kukoc longley and kerr

all of them were a part of the second 3 peat bulls later on

not to mention the 94-95 bulls were 34-31 and talking about trading pippen before jordan came back

[sdballer5588]

Cliffs?

[ajctennis]

Same old, how lebron is better than jordan. How kobe is the goat.

@ clutch analyst, it took way more shots for Kobe to get to the same amount of points as Jordan. Saying tougher defense is hypothetical as well. You should remember Mj got double teamed a fair amount. Kobe got to play one on one when he played with Shaq.

And Yes, the media does try to act like Kobe is the most clutch player in the game.

There's no sane person who would take Kobe over Jordan. You dont even need to look at his inferior stats, just watch him play games. Tries to take ridiculous low percentage shots hence I say poor shot selection. Also MJ was FAR superior to Kobe in the playoffs. Not even close.

Dont think theres much point in going any further. Clearly anything I saw wont convince you and nothing you say will convince me.

ESPN hasnt tried to say Kobe isnt that clutch until fairly recently but it does nothing to dissuade fans as its so ingrained in peoples minds.

[ClutchAnalyst]

Same old, how lebron is better than jordan. How kobe is the goat.

@ clutch analyst, it took way more shots for Kobe to get to the same amount of points as Jordan. Saying tougher defense is hypothetical as well. You should remember Mj got double teamed a fair amount. Kobe got to play one on one when he played with Shaq.

And Yes, the media does try to act like Kobe is the most clutch player in the game.

There's no sane person who would take Kobe over Jordan. You dont even need to look at his inferior stats, just watch him play games. Tries to take ridiculous low percentage shots hence I say poor shot selection. Also MJ was FAR superior to Kobe in the playoffs. Not even close.

Dont think theres much point in going any further. Clearly anything I saw wont convince you and nothing you say will convince me.

ESPN hasnt tried to say Kobe isnt that clutch until fairly recently but it does nothing to dissuade fans as its so ingrained in peoples minds.

nope, kobe only averages less than 1 shot more missed per game than jordan.

rules changes in 2002 made the game tougher and players got more doubled and tripled, wayyy more than jordan. this is heavily documented.

nope, media goes against kobe by picking arbitrary parameters. if anything blame the coaches and players who have voted kobe as most clutch since 2000-2011 ish not the media who's been trying to promote other players as more clutch.

"no sane person takes kobe over jordan" welp you may be right just keep in mind you've called a number of nba players and personnel insane, that's all.

[StrapNScrap21]

yeah tell that to the teams they were holding under 70 points

You don't understand Elo Ratings. Also, the Nets and Bucks (and even the Pacers in the same number of games) all put up a better fight against the Pistons than the Lakers did in that playoff run. The composite Elo takes the domination of the 2004 Lakers into account, and even still they're the worst NBA champion of the last 30 years.

[ClutchAnalyst]

You don't understand Elo Ratings. Also, the Nets and Bucks (and even the Pacers in the same number of games) all put up a better fight against the Pistons than the Lakers did in that playoff run.

yeah i completely agree, cause that lakers team was overrated due to injuries. it never had a chance in the finals

also, there's always two sides to a story

Winter said, "Shaq defeated himself against Detroit. He played way too passively. He had one big game ... He's always interested in being a scorer, but he hasn't had nearly enough concentration on defense and rebounding."[91]

[notWilliam]

no I haven't. you're the one being inconsistent valuing advanced stats or just stats in general but then shoving that aside with steph. somehow steph is a weakness on defense despite opposing point guards playing poorly against steph, despite steph being among the league leaders in steals, and having good metrics defensively. anyways Kobe's statistical case can be seen in his impact best measured by net rating. For the purposes of this discussion let's just compare Kobe to Duncan and LeBron his main competitors. Kobe has a higher playing off net rating then both. Kobe actually had a much higher net playoff rating then Shaq in 2001 and Pau in 2009 and 2010. Meanwhile Tim Duncan was actually a net negative in the playoffs when the spurs won championships in 2014 and 2005. also was a net negative when the spurs made the finals in 2013. lebron last year in the playoff was barely a net positive (+0.4) so much for the narrative that lebron single handily carried the cavs, once again he was barely a net positive in 2013 when the heat won the championship (+0.2). was a huge net negative in 2011 when the heat made the finals (-14.6) proving that lebron actually cost the heat a sure championship. The Heat were +16.2 per 100 possessions in the playoffs when LeBron was on the bench.

Kobe during Lakers finals runs:
2000- net rating unavailable
2001- +14.2 (shaq -0.3). it was all shaq tho! shaq carried the team. lmao
2002- +1.5
2004- +13.5
2008 +8.9
2009: +12.4
2010: +7.6

Do you just make up numbers?
2014-15 LBJ playoff run: NetRtg = +4.3 NOT +0.4

Not even gonna bother fact checking the other stats or responding to your argument because youre using 100 minute sample sizes of bench units +/- to push your agenda